Full Version: Special Edition not shipping?
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| I disagree Shadow Prophet. WW LE's typically were nice hardbound editions. Content otherwise unchanged. With 1 order for 12 restriction, the vast majority of collectors were never given the opportunity to purchase one. Considering a full 20% of the run were at GenCon and no where else. |
Oh I'm not saying I'm not very very very fond of my LE Mage copy.
But other than it being bound very nicely, and the gold edging and ribon, the content wasn't changed at all.
My comments were more directed to the people who are upset that they're getting so little for the increased cost in the way of extra's.
There was lots of opportunities online to pre-order a Limited Edition from a reliable source.
right, pardon me if I choose to support the businesses that made RPG's possible rather than the online shops. Aside from the additional S&H charges.
I was responding to your statement that "the vast majority of collectors were never given the opportunity to purchase one". This isn't correct, as these collectors were given the opportunity, and if they didn't act on it, then that was their choice.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| Well for starters, if I announced it was going to launch at GenCon I would have made sure to have plenty of coppies on hand already. Second I would have made sure that the product was ready for launch at the begining of september. Thats how blakkie. Glitches happen that sometimes we cant avoid granted, but if something like that happens, you make sure people know. |
...and your proof that there weren't stacks of SR4 BBBs ready for the distributors to take at the start of September is? It would seem that the week following Gencon (last week of August) that the rest of the LE's at least would have been finished binding, and how many of those have made it through the channel?
Further exactly how does having extra copies of the LE at Gencon help the issue of LE availability to people that want one that weren't at Gencon, or help in the channel.
A question BTW, did Fanpro also sell out of the regular BBB books they had at Gencon?
| QUOTE |
| And no Blakkie it is not a fair question no matter how you try to justify it because we simply do not have enough information. |
It is in the same neighborhood of fairness as a lot of the stuff being ask (well actually demanded) of Fanpro. A Limited Edition for everyone that wanted to buy one? So there should also be a first printing of the standard BBB available for everyone that ever wants to buy one too? That Fanpro has to track all the books through the distribution channel for everyone on an internet board that demands to know where the book is....after figuring out which channel you are trying to get your book through.
Fair? No, i don't think so....and that is my point.
Say i had no credit card, cash only. Or have some severe aversion to online transactions, then no, there has not been sufficient opportunity for me as a collector to purchase an LE.
I expected Fanpro to hit the major US cons, as I had seen FASA do in years prior. I attended the biggest Con in the SE, Dragon*Con, with nary a Fanpro booth in sight. I was not going to attend Gen*Con solely for an LE, I don't like paying for S&H because it's a rip, they charge you for the most expensive and use the cheapest that they can get away with.
I also dislike their websites, but that's a different matter entirely.
I only have the option of my FLGS, I placed my pre-order there, at the time, I was the ONLY person to have placed a pre-order for the LE at the time, so provided they order 12+ copies, I'm set.
They have not called me to let me know any news, good or bad.
I'm saying that if they accepted a preorder prior to a cut off being announced to the general public, they are obligated to fulfill that order.
If my FLGS fails to come though for me, I'm filling with the better business bureau, if their distributor failed them,I'm filing with the better business bureau, if FanPro failed, then I'm going to steer my group away from SR4 entirely. I'd rather make do with a game that the company makes good on it's orders than pay additional money to a company that chooses to ignore my concerns.
I expected Fanpro to hit the major US cons, as I had seen FASA do in years prior. I attended the biggest Con in the SE, Dragon*Con, with nary a Fanpro booth in sight. I was not going to attend Gen*Con solely for an LE, I don't like paying for S&H because it's a rip, they charge you for the most expensive and use the cheapest that they can get away with.
I also dislike their websites, but that's a different matter entirely.
I only have the option of my FLGS, I placed my pre-order there, at the time, I was the ONLY person to have placed a pre-order for the LE at the time, so provided they order 12+ copies, I'm set.
They have not called me to let me know any news, good or bad.
I'm saying that if they accepted a preorder prior to a cut off being announced to the general public, they are obligated to fulfill that order.
If my FLGS fails to come though for me, I'm filling with the better business bureau, if their distributor failed them,I'm filing with the better business bureau, if FanPro failed, then I'm going to steer my group away from SR4 entirely. I'd rather make do with a game that the company makes good on it's orders than pay additional money to a company that chooses to ignore my concerns.
At the same time as FanPro announced that there would be a Limited Edition, they made public their policy in regards to ordering limitations (ie. 1 per 12 regular copies). There is no excuse for the retailers (or at least the distributors) to over-order Le's, as the restrictions were not added later.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||||
...and your proof that there weren't stacks of SR4 BBBs ready for the distributors to take at the start of September is? It would seem that the week following Gencon (last week of August) that the rest of the LE's at least would have been finished binding, and how many of those have made it through the channel? Further exactly how does having extra copies of the LE at Gencon help the issue of LE availability to people that want one that weren't at Gencon, or help in the channel. A question BTW, did Fanpro also sell out of the regular BBB books they had at Gencon?
It is in the same neighborhood of fairness as a lot of the stuff being ask (well actually demanded) of Fanpro. A Limited Edition for everyone that wanted to buy one? So there should also be a first printing of the standard BBB available for everyone that ever wants to buy one too? That Fanpro has to track all the books through the distribution channel for everyone on an internet board that demands to know where the book is....after figuring out which channel you are trying to get your book through. Fair? No, i don't think so....and that is my point. |
And here we figure out where my points are completely missunderstood.
I'm talking about SR4 in general and the LE. Both versions when I mention why I'm upset. My comments shouldn't just be limited to the LE, but in general about SR4.
| QUOTE |
| A Limited Edition for everyone that wanted to buy one? |
No thats silly.
| QUOTE |
| So there should also be a first printing of the standard BBB available for everyone that ever wants to buy one too? |
Umm well that'd be the idea generaly. The first printing should last a while so that well a second printing can be run if first printing supplies start to get low.
And I never said they had to track all the books. I said talk to the publisher, has everything been shipped. Confirm with the Distributors, did you get your shipments. Then ask the distributors when they think they'll be able to get it to the stores for sale and communicate that to the customer. I don't think thats too much to ask.
But if their distributors failed to mention that little tidbit to the retailers (I wonder how many retailers that just scrape by at breaking even or a msall loss were able to attend the meeting where it was announced). then they might be selling more LE's then they have a right to.
I have no issue with rationing, honestly. the last thing you want is some jerk pre-ordering 400 copies of the LE to make a killing on eBay.
But, if live near a small FLGS that, on a good year sells 6 copies, i still want a fair shake and I'm not going to get one.
I have no issue with rationing, honestly. the last thing you want is some jerk pre-ordering 400 copies of the LE to make a killing on eBay.
But, if live near a small FLGS that, on a good year sells 6 copies, i still want a fair shake and I'm not going to get one.
| QUOTE (Nikoli @ Sep 20 2005, 04:35 AM) |
| But if their distributors failed to mention that little tidbit to the retailers (I wonder how many retailers that just scrape by at breaking even or a msall loss were able to attend the meeting where it was announced). then they might be selling more LE's then they have a right to. |
Then, as I said above, that would be the distributors' fault, not FanPro's.
I do understand your frustration. I am not getting a copy of the LE either, even though I would like one. I am not blaming FanPro for that fact though, since I was given ample opportunity to order one (I don't have a credit card, and would have had to set up a Paypal account to order ... and the shipping costs to Oz would have been insane).
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 19 2005, 12:30 PM) |
| And here we figure out where my points are completely missunderstood. I'm talking about SR4 in general and the LE. Both versions when I mention why I'm upset. My comments shouldn't just be limited to the LE, but in general about SR4. |
I was talking about tracking both.
| QUOTE |
| And I never said they had to track all the books. I said talk to the publisher, has everything been shipped. Confirm with the Distributors, did you get your shipments. Then ask the distributors when they think they'll be able to get it to the stores for sale and communicate that to the customer. I don't think thats too much to ask. |
Then prepare to be disappointed by more than Fanpro.
Read back through this thread and others on this board and you actually get some of that information in general sense. But it simply does not make logistical sense for Fanpro to try figure out how your retailer is going to get the book, and without the information it matters not.Your retailer is the one to talk to. They know who they ordered from, so they know who to contact.
I do blame Fanpro for my particular situation though.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||||
I was talking about tracking both.
Then prepare to be disappointed by more than Fanpro. Read back through this thread and others on this board and you actually get some of that information in general sense. But it simply does not make logistical sense for Fanpro to try figure out how your retailer is going to get the book, and without the information it matters not.Your retailer is the one to talk to. They know who they ordered from, so they know who to contact. |
Well if you had read what I had writen Blakkie you would have seen no where in my comment did i mention fanpro talking to the retailers. Reading back through the threads there are a limited number of RPG distributors. And certainly Fanpro knows which ones they use. And no I don't think its a difficult process to go hey publisher did you ship to the distributors? Ok good. Hey distributors, did you get your shipments? Ok good, when do you think you'll be shipping those out so i can tell my customers what they need to know?
And if you had read what I had writen earlier Blakkie you would have also found out that well, retailers don't realy know from my experiance. Both reputable game stores I've been at in my area don't have a clue when they'll get it at this point.
Shift the blame all you want blakkie but you still end up with fanpro not doing its job and not communicating to its customers.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| Well if you had read what I had writen Blakkie you would have seen no where in my comment did i mention fanpro talking to the retailers. |
I never said that. I'm saying that is what YOU should be doing (which yes, you have).
| QUOTE |
| Reading back through the threads there are a limited number of RPG distributors. And certainly Fanpro knows which ones they use. |
But for a chance to get meaningful information from the distributor they need to know the retailer YOU want to know about.
| QUOTE |
| And if you had read what I had writen earlier Blakkie you would have also found out that well, retailers don't realy know from my experiance. Both reputable game stores I've been at in my area don't have a clue when they'll get it at this point. |
I read that. So? Perhaps that should suggest to you that knowing WTF is going on at the distrubtor is rather opaque or indeterminable?
| QUOTE |
| Shift the blame all you want blakkie but you still end up with fanpro not doing its job and not communicating to its customers. |
*shrug* Play the blame game all you like, it comes down to you needing to not get your panties in a knot. All Fanpro could tell you is what you already been told....it's coming sometime.
| QUOTE |
| And WizKids is owned by Topps. I think it's safe to say that the owner is not always a telling advantage. |
And I can find WizKids products at Wal-Mart, 7-11, and Blockbuster Video. I'd call that one hell of an advantage, wouldn't you?
| QUOTE |
| Shift the blame all you want blakkie but you still end up with fanpro not doing its job and not communicating to its customers. |
Have you ever tried tracking a shipment through, say, UPS? Sometimes they can't even tell you anything more than: "It's on it's way". Besides which, IIRC the game companies aren't paid at the retail level-- I think it's the distribs who give them their share. So, the distribs are the actual customers-- the fans, at the retail level, simply set the distrib's orders.
| QUOTE |
| All Fanpro could tell you is what you already been told....it's coming sometime. |
I don't believe that at all.
| QUOTE |
| But for a chance to get meaningful information from the distributor they need to know the retailer YOU want to know about. |
Right because the distributer would have no clue if they have shipped out any coppies at all, or if they're in the process of shipping them out. And as far as going up to a retail store and asking them when they're going to get it in they're not going to know unless its a small shop. I'm prety sure the distributor could easily tell you hey we've shiped coppies to the major retailers the smaller ones are coming.
Honestly now you realy think its so complicated no one knows whats going on? You really think that a distributor couldn't tell which major outlets he's shipped stuff to? If so then how the hell are they still in buisness?
I doubt that if fanpro called up one of their distributors, that that distributor couldn't tell them if they've recieved any copies, and if they've sent any out to atleast the major outlets. And by major places I mean places like Amazon, and barnes and nobles that you see virtualy everywhere. Certainly the minor stores I can see having issues tracking them down but atleast the major retailers should be easily trackable and known.
And yes its coming sometime. Horray. Because thats the way to do buisness. Oh you placed a order with me? Oh yeah well we'll get to it when we feel like it.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| I do blame Fanpro for my particular situation though. |
And you still haven't given a reasonable explanation as to why.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) | ||
I don't believe that at all. |
...which is where you fail.
| QUOTE | ||
Right because the distributer would have no clue if they have shipped out any coppies at all, or if they're in the process of shipping them out. <snip> |
Well they certainly don't seem to be able to let their customers (the retail stores) know.
No. I don't believe Fanpro is telling us all they know. You can believe they are telling you everything they know I for one choose not to believe that given their track record in actualy telling us anything.
| QUOTE |
| Well they certainly don't seem to be able to let their customers (the retail stores) know. |
The smaller stores yes. Can't quite go into say barnes and nobels and ask the guy behind the counter when their distributers say they'll get sr4 and expect a intelligent or accurate answer.
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
And I can find WizKids products at Wal-Mart, 7-11, and Blockbuster Video. I'd call that one hell of an advantage, wouldn't you? |
I would. Meanwhile Shadowrun is also owned by WizKids—I'm not sure what the terms of the license with FanPro are, but it seems clear to me that they aren't getting much if any help from WizKids/Topps.
~J
Copies of both the regular and limited edition were few and far between at GenCon because of the printer/binder issues.
I believe they sold out of each in minutes, and I'm equally sure that if they COULD have brought more they would have.
As for anyone really wanting an LE, last I checked, Studio2 still had the link available.
http://studio2publishing.com/shop/product_...products_id=219
They state, and have stated since late August, that the material will not be shipped until Sep 30.
Since this link is taken from the updates Rob and Adam have posted, I can't see the complaints of not being informed. If the Sep 30 date is changed, then, I'd like to know.
I believe they sold out of each in minutes, and I'm equally sure that if they COULD have brought more they would have.
As for anyone really wanting an LE, last I checked, Studio2 still had the link available.
http://studio2publishing.com/shop/product_...products_id=219
They state, and have stated since late August, that the material will not be shipped until Sep 30.
Since this link is taken from the updates Rob and Adam have posted, I can't see the complaints of not being informed. If the Sep 30 date is changed, then, I'd like to know.
| QUOTE (Rae) |
| Copies of both the regular and limited edition were few and far between at GenCon because of the printer/binder issues. I believe they sold out of each in minutes, and I'm equally sure that if they COULD have brought more they would have. As for anyone really wanting an LE, last I checked, Studio2 still had the link available. http://studio2publishing.com/shop/product_...products_id=219 They state, and have stated since late August, that the material will not be shipped until Sep 30. Since this link is taken from the updates Rob and Adam have posted, I can't see the complaints of not being informed. If the Sep 30 date is changed, then, I'd like to know. |
And the release date for the PDF was the Wed before GenCon. I wonder if come October 1st we'll get a post saying "Yeah problems, may get it next week or next month"
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| And I can find WizKids products at Wal-Mart, 7-11, and Blockbuster Video. I'd call that one hell of an advantage, wouldn't you? |
You can? Damn... living in Kansas sucks... we have none of that in easy to find places like that here... at least in Wichita. Its hobby shop or comic shop only for anything rpg related (aside from the i-net of course.)
| QUOTE (Patrick Goodman) | ||
And you still haven't given a reasonable explanation as to why. |
Because the LE doesn't have that craptastic cartoon artwork on the front. I can blame Fanpro for approving that piece.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Because the LE doesn't have that craptastic cartoon artwork on the front. I can blame Fanpro for approving that piece. |
Yeah, you can. You could also grow up and get over it, in my opinion, but if you want to blame them for their choice of cover art, I can't and won't try to stop you.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) | ||
And the release date for the PDF was the Wed before GenCon. I wonder if come October 1st we'll get a post saying "Yeah problems, may get it next week or next month" |
See you in two weeks!
Hi Jay!!
| QUOTE (Discount Games) |
| If your keep missing your deadline, it seems logical to me to push your deadline back so you can actually hit it. If you know your supply chain has problems, try to compensate for that with the date you set. The book was supposed to be out in August and probably won't be out until October. That makes it hard on a retailer that actually believes release dates. |
Hi Jay!!
| QUOTE |
| Right because the distributer would have no clue if they have shipped out any coppies at all, or if they're in the process of shipping them out. |
Honestly? I think if you called the distrib's main office, they'd only be able to tell you if they've shipped to their "local" centers. And even if you called the local centers, they may not know exactly what they have-- if everything is prepacked, they'll only have numbers, not titles.
| QUOTE ("Kagetenshi") |
| I would. Meanwhile Shadowrun is also owned by WizKids—I'm not sure what the terms of the license with FanPro are, but it seems clear to me that they aren't getting much if any help from WizKids/Topps. |
Someone from Fanpro will have to confirm all the details, but IIRC all they have is a licenscing agreement. Which is to say, Fanpro pays Wizkids for the privledge of putting out Shadowrun material. This being a business agreement, it doesn't make sense for Wizkids to provide anything more than what's in the contract-- which is to say, the Shadowrun name.
Also, don't forget that the licenscing agreement predates the Topps buyout. I have no idea how long the contract is good for, but I'll wager that it's not due for renegotiation anytime soon. Wizkids didn't have access to the improved distribution network back then, so there's no way it could be in the original contract.
| QUOTE ("Xenith") |
| You can? Damn... living in Kansas sucks... we have none of that in easy to find places like that here... at least in Wichita. Its hobby shop or comic shop only for anything rpg related (aside from the i-net of course.) |
Well, I can find the Pirates cards, at least. And I saw the new Rocketman game at 7-11 the other day, but I haven't seen it anywhere else yet.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| There was lots of opportunities online to pre-order a Limited Edition from a reliable source. |
I preordered and prepaid from a very reliable source. In fact untill this fiasco came along I have always been able to get whatever I want through my FLGS. And at a significant discount at the same time.
Too bad Fanpro can't own up to the delays "like a man". I'd have more respect for the company if they'd fill us in on the reason for the delays instead of keeping us in the dark and hoping we don't notice.
Personally, I think the delay is just a cheap ploy to raise the PDF sales, which have a much lower overhead cost and therefore, are much more profitable.
Personally, I think the delay is just a cheap ploy to raise the PDF sales, which have a much lower overhead cost and therefore, are much more profitable.
Yeah, Fanpro is the spawn of evil. o_O Come on, stop seeing conspiracys!
Not saying they are doing it to be evil. I'm sure it's purely a business decision. Either to hide their incompetence, raise PDF sales, or they're waiting for the beginning of the fourth quarter to release it to maximize perceived success. And it's probably a combination of all three.
A conspiracy involves an unlawful act. Nothing unlawful about this situation.
A conspiracy involves an unlawful act. Nothing unlawful about this situation.
| QUOTE (P.P.Lemonade) |
| A conspiracy involves an unlawful act. |
[begin nitpick]
| QUOTE |
| Main Entry: con·spire Pronunciation: k&n-'spIr Function: verb Inflected Form(s): con·spired; con·spir·ing Etymology: from Latin conspirare to be in harmony, conspire, from com- + spirare to breathe transitive senses : PLOT, CONTRIVE intransitive senses 1 a : to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or an act which becomes unlawful as a result of the secret agreement b : SCHEME 2 : to act in harmony toward a common end <circumstances conspired to defeat his efforts> |
So the act doesn't have to be unlawful, as long as you believe it to be wrongful. (Given the context of your previous comments, I assumed you thought that the delays were wrongful acts. I could be wrong, though.) By the second definition, the result doesn't even have to be bad, as long as you have several parties acting together towards the same goal.
[/end nitpick]
Not that it matters, but I'm personally fine with the job the developers are doing. I'll get a paper copy when I can, but enjoying going through the pdf for now.
By the way, my distributor told me that he received a solicitation from Studio 2 *last week* for individual purchases of the LE (I cannot verify the truth of that statement). It appears that even though Fan Pro has been clear on their policy with the LEs, the company that they chose to distribute and sell their books for them has not been.
Since we're all still beating this dead horse, have your distributor fax you the solicitation. =)
He forwarded me the snippet of the solicitation (it was sent electronically):
Orders are due today for FPR35025 Mercenaries Supplemental II $24.99 (Classic Battletech). Releases: 19 September 2005.
FPR26000 Shadowrun Fourth Edition $34.99 and FPR26001 Shadowrun Fourth Edition Limited Edition $49.99. Release: Late September.
Orders are due today for FPR35025 Mercenaries Supplemental II $24.99 (Classic Battletech). Releases: 19 September 2005.
FPR26000 Shadowrun Fourth Edition $34.99 and FPR26001 Shadowrun Fourth Edition Limited Edition $49.99. Release: Late September.
There is nothing in that snippet that would lead me to believe that there is anything illicit going on. If the distributor ordered 144 normal edition, then they have 12 LEs to sell to whomever they choose.
I am inclined to believe that this whole issue has arisen over miscommunication. I think it would be very easy to misconstrue such a message.
Absolutely agreed. However, I have never been under the impression that FanPro or Wiz Kids made promises that aren't being kept. They stated clearly that you had to order X number of regular editions to get 1 LE. If the distributors and shops didn't pay attention then that is their problem, and they should suffer the consequences, not FP or WK.
I guess that the unknowable point is if Studio 2 did indeed confirm orders outside the 1 for 12 deal as my distributor claims, or if they followed FanPros instructions.
Well, since individuals have been able to pre-order the LE book from Studio 2's website for quite some time, why wouldn't they be able to sell those directly to distributors without the 1 for 12 deal?
Because that is what was stated explicitly. Studio 2 has a symbiotic relationship with FanPro, the others do not.
Is it fair? No. Now we all have to deal with it.
Is it fair? No. Now we all have to deal with it.
| QUOTE (Apathy) | ||||
[begin nitpick]
So the act doesn't have to be unlawful, as long as you believe it to be wrongful. (Given the context of your previous comments, I assumed you thought that the delays were wrongful acts. I could be wrong, though.) By the second definition, the result doesn't even have to be bad, as long as you have several parties acting together towards the same goal. [/end nitpick] Not that it matters, but I'm personally fine with the job the developers are doing. I'll get a paper copy when I can, but enjoying going through the pdf for now. |
[Begin nerdular argument]Considering Oracle called Fanpro the "spawn of evil" and mentioned "conspiracys", an intelligent person could probably figure out that use of the unlawful definition is more likely than the wrongful(like pulling a chair from underneath your buddy as he sits down)definition or the second definition.[End nerdular argument]
| QUOTE |
| Too bad Fanpro can't own up to the delays "like a man". I'd have more respect for the company if they'd fill us in on the reason for the delays instead of keeping us in the dark and hoping we don't notice. |
FanPro is not deviating from their normal policy, which is to announce that the book is shipping from distributors to stores on the day it ships from distributors to stores. That day has not happened yet, so the announcement has not happened.
| QUOTE |
| Personally, I think the delay is just a cheap ploy to raise the PDF sales, which have a much lower overhead cost and therefore, are much more profitable. |
It would be nice if the business was that simple.
| QUOTE (P.P.Lemonade) |
| Considering Oracle called Fanpro the "spawn of evil"[...] |
Please remind me of using [IRONY] tags in the future! Thank you in advance.
Pretty sure we knew you were being sarcastic.
He was ironic i thought? 
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| With 1 order for 12 restriction, the vast majority of collectors were never given the opportunity to purchase one. Considering a full 20% of the run were at GenCon and no where else. |
Actually, they only had 33 LE's for sale at GenCon (I know. I was there. I stood in line for it, and no, I didn't get to purchase one).
33/1000 does not make 20%. Now, I believe they DID get 50 IN, but held some for prizes (and maybe a few for themselves. Not sure. 17 for prizes seems a bit much).
Perhaps you meant 1/20, though...
I recall reading that 200 copies would be available at Gen*Con.
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