Hello!

I am the retailer that offered the Limited Edition books on eBay. I would like to take a chance to give my side of the story.

In July, I placed a pre-order for fifty Limited Edition books through my distributor, ACD. I was informed that I had placed my order early enough to reserve that quantity. I checked on the order periodically to insure that everything was ok.

After Gen Con, my distributor told me that FanPro had changed their policy and the commitments that they had made to my distributor would not be honored. Copies of the Limited Edition book would not be available to purchase individually.

Either FanPro or my distributor is lying. I will investigate the matter tommorrow and will make a post with my finding tommorrow evening.

So far, I have had only positive experiences with my distributor. They are the second largest game distributor in America, and not some fly by night company. They take their company motto, "Service At A Higher Level" seriously.

Finally, I would like to address the attacks by Mr. Boyle on my company and his suggestion that negative feedback be left for me on eBay. I started my company three months ago and I have had great success. So far I have over 470 unique users leave positive feedback for me on eBay. I have had zero people leave negative feedback. I have done many presales in the past with no problems. I try to always honor an agreement, and when that is not possible I try to create the best solution to the problem. Although Mr. Boyle may believe that eBay is unreliable and that orders were placed at the "wrong place", it is in fact his company that has a history of missed releases and broken promises.

Thank you for your time.

Jay
Discount Games

>>>After Gen Con, my distributor told me that FanPro had changed their policy and the commitments that they had made to my distributor and that copies of the Limited Edition book would not be available to purchase individually.<<<

ACD did in fact have it wrong, so the blame seems to lie with them. I heard from the folks at Studio 2 Publishing (who handle our fulfillment) that ACD did in fact make a mistake and solicited orders for the LE incorrectly. We've been very clear that the LEs were only available to distributors via the package deal since we announced it at GAMA in March. Like I said, however, we have no control over what distributors tell retailers. Sometimes they make mistakes. ACD is normally pretty good, and I have no complaints about them otherwise, but nobody's perfect.

>>>Finally, I would like to address the attacks by Mr. Boyle on my company and his suggestion that negative feedback be left for me on eBay. I started my company three months ago and I have had great success.<<<

Ignoring the fact that you necessitated my response by spreading false information regarding FanPro, I think "attacks" is a little harshly worded. I said you either screwed up or someone lied to you, and it appears the latter is true. Either way, you didn't check your facts and were spreading false rumors to your customers, so excuse me if I feel that applying negative feedback is in fact warranted. If you're going to be in the business of pre-selling books that you don't have (which, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't eBay prohibit that? for reasons like this?) on an auction service that relies on a peer-based reputation network, you're going to have to live with getting some negative remarks when you (or your distributors) screw up.

>>> Although Mr. Boyle may believe that eBay is unreliable and that orders were placed at the "wrong place"<<<

Well, fact is, I do think that ordering direct is the way to go, but I think you're reading too much into my statements. I don't have any particular issues with eBay, nor did I even know who you were, so don't take it so personally.

"If you're going to be in the business of pre-selling books that you don't have (which, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't eBay prohibit that? for reasons like this?) on an auction service that relies on a peer-based reputation network, you're going to have to live with getting some negative remarks when you (or your distributors) screw up."

I have have not seen an eBay policy that prohibits presales. It is possible that I am unaware of such a policy. If it does exist, I would be interested in receiving a link to that portion of the rules so I may be fully informed.

I have tried my best to rectify this situation by offering a either a full refund or a normal copy of the book at a very reasonable price ($19.00). If a customer feels that a negative feedback is appropriate, that is their perogative. However, I believe that such an attitude is somewhat unforgiving and unreasonable.

"Ignoring the fact that you necessitated my response by spreading false information regarding FanPro..."

I only gave the information to my customers that I received from my distributor. Quite frankly, given FanPro's track record, the assertions of my distributor did not seem far fetched in the least. I will ask my distributor tommorrow for their side of the story. (I must confess that I may also be assigning problems to FanPro that may be the responsiblity of Studio 2. I apologize if I am barking up the wrong tree).

Jay
Discount Games

Thank you very much for this information.

Umm, so who got multiple LE copies?

Stop whining everybody! Afaik not a single copy of SR4 LE made it to Germany. The owner of my FLGS, who owes me some favors and happens to have excellent contacts to Fanpro Germany was not able to get the book for me. And he ordered more than 12 copies of the normal 4th edition. I'm sorry. I'm frustrated.

I know of at least two posters at the german SR_D mailing list who grabbed a LE. But they ordered via an american company.

I've been stupid enough to rely on my FLGS. Should have tried to order at BattleCorps...

Glad I got my three LE's in time for all this BS

Discount Games IS my vendor. They have made good on the offer as far as i am concerned.

No negative feedback from me

Thanks again Jay!!!!!

I won't be leaving Jay/Discount Games negative feedback. While I'm not happy that I won't be getting a LE copy, I appreciate the fact that Jay has stayed in contact with those that won the auction and he is trying to remedy the situation in some way. At the very least, I'm getting a copy of SR4 for a greatly reduced price.

Regardless of who is at fault, offering a solution or compromise doesn't warrant negative feedback IMO. You could make a case for leaving neutral feedback but that's another discussion. And yes, suggesting that customers leave negative feedback for a seller is rather unprofessional in the unwritten ebay CoC.

I can understand Jay's frustration as well. Heck, at GenCon, the FanPro booth was a fiasco. They promised to have a ton of books but only had a few each day. SR4 was one of the things I was really looking forward to getting at GenCon but standing in line waiting to get a copy wasn't how I wanted to spend my time there. I think FanPro is putting out excellent products (yes, I like what I've heard about SR4 so far) but great customer service isn't one of their strong points.

Hmmm and now with them upsetting retailers it may be moving even more quickly to a purely online game.

Yeah, all the LEs at GC were quite literally hot off the presses ;7

--//[改]>

All the LE's and Regular editions.

First off I want to thank Rob both for coming here and trying to straighten this out and for asking S2P to fix their overseas shipping. Much appreciated.

I also want to thank Jay for the great service provided. He's been very friendly and helpful from day one.



That being said I hope something can be done to try and minimize the risk of something like this happening in the future.

I took a refund, and still lost 2,71€ in Paypal exchange rates etc...
And still no way to get a LE...

Honestly I've been buying Wargaming supplies from EBAY for the last four years. If you want something done right go to a reputable retailer. EBAY is dodgy by it's nature. But then again I've found stuff I'd never be able to find anywhere else. There's lots of great deals on EBAY but it's dodgy at the same time. I've gotten burned a couple of times but that's why I use a credit card. You can't leave home with out it. Yeah though if you live near a city there's lots of retailers who may be willing to sell you a LE. That's what Brick and Mortar stores are there for, to serve your needs. If you don't have credit or cash ect go to your local retail and pester the hell out of him or her. They love it when folks come in and ask for stuff. It makes them feel....all funny inside. Kind of like Bunnies and Rainbows and stuff.

Need another non-Brick and Mortar retailer: Studio 2 Publishing & Battlecorps.com, going to Ebay is dodgy.

The folks at Battlecorps had preorders up and Studio2 still has preorders on it's pages:

http://www.studio2publishing.com/shop/inde...582cc4fa7120ecb

Yeah I wouldn't preorder through EBAY. Although that's not to say I've not picked up lots of cool Shiznet of the Bay. Where would my 1st edition Orks be without EBAY......Justt don't forget your local Retailer, they like it when you call....They're lonley with all the books and stuff.

If it's any consolation Glassjaw if your ever in Boston I'll buy you a big fat beer by the name Sam and Adams.....(also is East Providence reallllly a place or are you just making it up? sorry had to smack RI...easy target....)

eBay cannot be "dodgy" -- eBay itself does not offer anything for sale. It's an auction house, or perhaps a more apt analogy is a flea market. Individual sellers on eBay may or may not be dodgy, but that's why there are feedback/reputations mechanisms.

Ebay is a giant flea market. Granted Ebay in and of itself isn't dodgy but it is a good way to fence stolen property, rare miniatures, and just about anything you can find. Your auction is only a good deal as your seller is. 99.9% of the auctions are on the whole good. I've been burned a few times but got my cash back with a credit card purchase. Granted feedback is a mechanism but it's by no means foolproof especially if it's a scam. I personally don't spend more than $100 on any one auction just in case. Although my Dad bought a Mac off someone at a good price.

Preordering a book from someone on EBAY is a bit dodgy in my opinion. Why not just go through a brick and mortar store if you don't have a credit card or a check ect. Most retailers I run games for are very accommodating. I don't trust ebay for the fact that I never get to look the seller in the face.

It's still dodgy.

Although my entire ORK army is completely bought off of EBAY. You just have to be careful is all. I would rate Stiggy baby, BattleCorps and Studio2 (and Fastforward before they went bust) over and above Ebay. I know who I'm dealing with and they ship my orders quick. There's more of a reason to keep me happy for repeat business than EBAY which is filled with hordes of buyers.

(You can sell anything on EBAY.....Just remember all the scams and jokes folks perpetrated trying to sell organs and babies. EBAY is the ultimate world bazaar. You can buy and sell ANYTHING there. The fact that I can cut my nails stick it in a box and sell it as ELVIS' clippings makes it a tad dodgy. It's a very loosely controlled open market. The founder is a complete and total GENIEUS but still it's dodgy.)

I wont pay 75$ for shipping at Studio2...
That's ridiculous...

eBay is irrelevant to me as a buyer -- all I care about is the seller, who is not eBay. I don't care who owns the shopping mall, I just care about the shop in it.

Yeah that's silly I'd email they're sales department.

I do alot of business in the UK with Black Tree Design, Wargames Foundry, and Gripping Beast & Perry Twins Historicals. The going rate is ussually between 5% (on the low) and 20% - 30% on the high. I would check how they're mailing it. It sounds like an overnight deal international. They probably just need to change a few things around on they're site to fix that.

Hey yeah know your in Germany and I"m in the US. Want to make a trade for Books for BEER? I could go for some authentic Munich Octoberfest!!! You guys are so lucky!!!! The best I can get in Boston is Sam Adams Octoberfest. (Decent but not up to German standards I think.-although they do fall in line with German purity standards for beer.)

Yeah though there malls that I would go too and there malls that I'd affraid to be shot at . (Roxbury-rough part of Boston ask Kage.) Granted they all sale the same stuff just one requires less Kevlar.

I love Chinese food, I love Moon Villa, I just hate having to worry about my wife getting held up for her jewelerly. (Big dig + China Town = 0 lighting and lots of dealers at 2am when I'm drunk and looking to sober up.)

If I want to find a good deal on a book, the chances are I'll have to spend less time, energy and trouble going through Stiggybaby's. The Cannon Companion was out of print and they had a great deal. With Ebay I have to spend time and effort to find it, at Stig's I point click and in 10 minutes I'm done. Ebay is more of a contest you have to fight sometimes for something that's hard to get. I've seen SQUATS for Warhammer 40k go way out of what is reasonable. I go to EBAY because it's the only place I'm going find 40k squats but if I could buy them from a retailer and the price is right I would. Ebay takes more effort and worry in my opinion. A retailer is there to sell you stuff and get you to come back. I bought alot of my 3rd edition stuff.

It's like this: I'm friends with Aubrey from Something Positive. We went to high school together and we've been friends for years. So I met Randy heard about his comic and started reading it around the time the Shadowrun thread came out. I felt an itch and started acking to play SR again. So I started buying up books some books like the Cannon Companion I just couldn't buy. So Stiggy was the easiest and most convienent way for me to buy books that I could not longer get ahold of. I could of gone to EBAY but Stiggy was just easier and more reliable. If he screwed me over I would call my credit card company, if he did me good, I'd order more books and have. Hell that's where I buy most my SR novels from. It's quick and easy and I choose what I want and when I want rather than having to fight off the masses for a book I want. So yes at a level EBAY is very Dodgy but it's a good dodgy and you have to be careful. It takes time and energy that frankly I could be spending working one something else. Like downloading the first 2005 season of Dr. Who from Gnutella. Retailers are going to be more reliable. A store that you visit is going to most likely be more reliable as well.

"That being said I hope something can be done to try and minimize the risk of something like this happening in the future."

I know for my part, I will fom now on only be doing presales for companies that have demonstrated a good ability to hit their release dates (Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf, etc).

I don't really want to throw any more fuel on the fire, especially since things seem to be calming down, but I did promise that I would post the reply from my distributor. I don't know where the truth lies, since there are divergent stories. Perhaps somewhere in the middle.

"Line Developers don't do the solicitations to the distribs. Their sales dept is the one that screwed up. They are the ones that originally pitched in wrong, and realized too late they pitched the books seperately and would not have enough books to go around. Due to the print run size, I'm sure they meant to do it 12 normal and 1 LTD. Its not the distribs or your fault the company that sells for Fanpro put out bad info. The distribs and stores took orders for the items they had info on. Its not their fault they were given bad info. It happens. Anyone that has been around this industry knows stuff happens and releases/products change before they come out."

I bought something on e-Bay, once. It was a Dreamcast, just the core system. My had gone *poof*, and i knew what was wrong (servo motor for CD arm) but Sega had been long out of the hardware at that point. Only place to go was eBay. Didn't pay huge amounts, but it was inline with other sales. It was listed as in working order.

I received it. It wasn't working. It couldn't have been working. It wasn't just shipping damage, i openned it and there were screws flat out missing that were needed to hold things in place to work. It was basically a box of spare parts. Fortunately the spare part i needed was there and in working order so i got a working system out of it in the end.

The seller had a long history and no negatives. Should i have pressed the matter and tried to get my money back so he wouldn't pull this crap on someone else? Or had he bought the DC and never even plugged it in before? In the end i figured it wasn't even close to worth the hassle since i had [inadvertantly] gotten what i was looking for even though it wasn't what i was sold.

I've never used eBay since, and am not likely to again until pressed HARD into a corner where it is the only feasible place where i might find something i'm looking for.

I fully understand what Adam is saying, but finding a good seller source on eBay is a crapshoot and can be harder to try get some satisfaction out of. Especially it would seem when you end up off the beaten track in used item territory, or for people like me that are out-of-country and the shipping costs to fix a mistake are onerous.

Just in an effort to cut off any other potential testimonials -

BUYER BEWARE

No one forces you to use Ebay. The sellers on it range from guys like you and me to online stores like Discount Games up there to crooks.

Each purchase on Ebay is a crap shoot, and you don't know what you're going to get. You can help even the odds, but there's no guarantees.

Use common sense. Research your product. Ask the seller questions. If you get a bad vibe, don't buy it. If a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Finally, if a product is available at a more reliable dealer for a reasonable price, weigh your options.

This little frag-up came from a miscommunication. Buyers are pissed because they won't get what they thought they were getting, sellers are pissed because they won't make the sales they thought they would, everyone's pissed because tempers flared and Bad Things were said. I'm pissed because I don't want to hear anymore "I-Got-Scorched-by-Ebay" or "FanPro-Never-Releases-On-Time-And-On-Target" whinings.

Anyone have a valid point to add here? Because if you don't, don't reply to this thread.

Valid Point: It's "eBay" not "Ebay" or "EBAY" or "ebay".

*ducks and runs*

I would like to say two more things.

First, I would like to compliment FanPro. I believe that they create good products. Because of this, they have developed a loyal fan base.

Second, I would like to comment on eBay. I believe that for every horror story involving eBay, there are countless transactions that have happy customers.

Three months ago I was working a job that I hated. I decided to do something about. Like most of you, I am a gamer. I play roleplaying games three times a week. I set up an account with a distributor and used $500 that I had saved to get some inventory. I started posting on eBay. I continued to work my normal job and reinvested all of my profits into my business.

Next week I am going to quit my normal job. It would have been impossible for me to start my own business with a brick and mortar store without going into debt. I have tried to place an emphasis on service to my customers. In three months time I have already garnered many loyal customers. Most of them do not live close to a game store or cannot afford gaming products at retail prices. I like think that my auctions bring a little bit of happiness to a gamer.

My deepest regret concerning these presale transactions has not been the fact that I will end up losing money on the auctions. Instead, I regret that I have disappointed a fellow gamer. I know what it is like to desire a game desperately, and then have your hopes dashed.

@kryton
I can't go to my FLGS and pre-order a copy because there really isn't one where I live. There are bookstores/gamingstores (and by gamingstores I mean video and computer games) that also sell a few rpg books. Most noted is a bookstore that sells science-fiction and fantasy. However they aren't that well informed when it comes to rpg:s. More than a month after it was announced that FanPro was taking over after FASA they still said that FASA had closed and there would be no more Shadowrun. If you go to their site now they're selling: SoA, SoLA and System Failure, but not Shadowrun 4. I was too late for Battlecorp and as for buying from S2P, I really, really don't have 85$ to spend on shipping alone.

I've done 19 purchases on eBay and this is the first time I've encountered any problem at all. Of course there are shady sellers on eBay, but you can find those anywhere on the 'net (though I imagine the percentage is a bit higher on eBay).

American Dream man, enjoy it

So... how about getting that extra LE fiction posted to the Shadowrun website?

I have a 100% feedback rating of over 100 on eBay. Out of those 100+ transactions, I've probably only had 1 or 2 bad experiences and only 1 where I was actually burned (but not for that much). The money I've saved on stuff over the years MORE than makes up for the extremely rare bad experience. There's no question that you have to be persistent on eBay and choose who you buy from carefully. But if you do your homework, nothing comes close to eBay. eBay rulez.

So far (in my limited experience), White Wolf has done a pretty good job on their mass releases. The Mage books shipped to me without a hitch (its a gorgeous book). I'm fairly excited to see how the Serenity book looks.

New guy here, but I wanted to share some info about S2P and ordering from Europe (Sweden, in this case).

After many days of loud cursing over their insane UPS shipping cost (I missed the LE at Battlecorps), I simply used their contact form and asked if they could use USPS shipping instead since that would more than halve shipping costs. I also suggested the USPS type of shipping that Battlecorps used (Airmail Parcel Post) mostly as an example since I knew from their site that approx cost for shipping would be $30-40.

I got a reply that simply said that they could get a quote from USPS if I replied with what I wanted and where to send it. Then I would get a Paypal invoice.

I got my invoice a few days ago and paid it. Shipping was $39.25 for two LE books to Sweden (one for me, one for my GM). Not cheap but waaaay better than $100 from their webordering. I'm also splitting the cost with my GM so it's not too bad. It might also be possible to get other types of USPS shipping options, but I didn't really want to waste time with it. (usually it costs me around half that when getting books from eBay with USPS types of shipping)

So you might try this, fellow euros (and others). A warning tho, S2P is rather slow answering mails. They do answer but it might take a couple of days.

Just out of curiosoty. Does anybody know what the ISBN for the Limted Edition is?

Who cares about the LE. The regular edition isn't even shipping. Way to go on dropping the ball FanPro. Nothing like having your premier product wander onto the shelves 2.5 months after release.

Just heard back from Battlecorps, here's what they have to say: