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SirKodiak
QUOTE
The thread has evolved decidedly beyond the initial (and easily answerable) question. This is the nature of many discussions on Dumpshock, if you haven't noticed. While I think we're reaching the end of the new material on our current line of questioning, I would decidedly disagree that what we've discussed so far is worthless.


Please don't feed the trolls.
Kagetenshi
Please don't say that, it's racist. We don't want a MOM protest on the boards.

~J
Oro
heres a good site for the fledgling AI enthusiast:

http://www.alicebot.org/

its not much but its kinda fun to play with.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Why in the world is this discussion still going on?

Let's consider VR2.0. An AI is at leastr comparable to an SK. An SK requires, at minimum, a Red 10 host, and the eqv. of a half-dozen or more programmers with Computer 12. (140-41).

"programming an SK is beyond the capabilities of player characters (Matrix, 147).

More fundamentally, "AIs cannot be created--they happen." (Matrix, 150).

The criteria is:
QUOTE (Matrix @ 150)
1 ) The program must be at least as sophisticated as a semi-autonomous knowbot.
2) The program must have access to vast processing power, which is available in only a few select hosts.
3) The program must run nonstop for a period of years.
4) Finally, the program must be affected by some glitch-- an x-factor-that sparks awareness.


This is a non-question. They cannot create an AI.

Everytime someone asks a question with a clear answer, yet it is debated for four pages, God kills a kitten.

Please, think of the kittens.

One the rules in shadowrun state that an AI is some deeply mystical thing that can make "magical people" who can serf the matrix without a deck. I did not ask that. I asked if someone could make program that could fit into a more reasonable deffenetion of what an A.I. is. The anwser to my question based on the praramiters I have set is,in fact yes.

And Jaron you want someone funny to read on, look up Skiner.
BitBasher
QUOTE
One the rules in shadowrun state that an AI is some deeply mystical thing that can make "magical people" who can serf the matrix without a deck.
No, it has the ability to rewire the brains of adolescents so they can use the matrix while being explicitly NOT magical. This does share the same OOC mechanics similar to magic however.

QUOTE
I did not ask that. I asked if someone could make program that could fit into a more reasonable deffenetion of what an A.I. is. The anwser to my question based on the praramiters I have set is,in fact yes.
Only because your definition of an AI is not shadowrun's. in SR someone cannot consciously create an AI.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (BitBasher)
No, it has the ability to rewire the brains of adolescents so they can use the matrix while being explicitly NOT magical.

Explicit where, exactly? proof.gif

~J
BitBasher
Where it says, if I recall corrctly, that if you are an Otaku magic must be "none". And they have no magic attribte. The only real similarities are in OOC game mechanics.
Cynic project
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
One the rules in shadowrun state that an AI is some deeply mystical thing that can make "magical people" who can serf the matrix without a deck.
No, it has the ability to rewire the brains of adolescents so they can use the matrix while being explicitly NOT magical. This does share the same OOC mechanics similar to magic however.

QUOTE
I did not ask that. I asked if someone could make program that could fit into a more reasonable deffenetion of what an A.I. is. The anwser to my question based on the praramiters I have set is,in fact yes.
Only because your definition of an AI is not shadowrun's. in SR someone cannot consciously create an AI.

And so the point of this thread was not the SR Uber AI.

And no one in the game world really knows everything about the Otaku. No one knows if they are magical or not, and if you read into some details you could say that Gracie is one. Wile the books do not say one way or the other. Also note that Otaku are more likely to be effected by SURGE.
BitBasher
QUOTE
And no one in the game world really knows everything about the Otaku. No one knows if they are magical or not,
Yes, they do. Their magic attribute is Zero. This means, by definition, that they are mundane.
SirKodiak
QUOTE
Only because your definition of an AI is not shadowrun's. in SR someone cannot consciously create an AI.


That's because Shadowrun took a perfectly good pair of words and put a crappy definition on them. Artificial Intelligence is a real concept and there's nothing wrong with talking about how one might use house rules to add real Artificial Intelligence to the Shadowrun universe, in addition to the bizarre AIs already running around in it.

However, it is good to be clear whether we're talking about Shadowrun AI or realistic AI, and for the most part in this thread we're talking about the second.
mfb
it's not actually known if all AIs can create otaku. Deus was apparently able to create limited otaku, who had abilities only in the Arco system. it's not actually been confirmed, i don't believe, that he can make fully-functional otaku. no other AIs have been confirmed to have the ability to create otaku, so the otaku thing is pretty much irrelevant.

regardless, according to SR's definition, a truly self-aware AI is not something a single decker--or even a team of high-level programmers--can create. however, it's reasonable to believe that a high-end S-K dedicated to the task of acting human might be able to fool most tests designed to test for self-awareness. according to the game rules, it would not be an AI, though; it would be an S-K, and S-Ks are defined as not being self-aware.

note that i am avoiding the whole question of whether or not a program that can fool people into thinking it's self-aware is, in fact, self-aware. i don't see it as relevant; using the SR definition of the terms, no one can create an AI.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Also note that Otaku are more likely to be effected by SURGE.

Which makes absolutely no sense since YotC gives them a base TN of 16 on the essence test.

The world would be a better place if everyone who thought Otaku were magical would get a clue.

QUOTE (mfb)
no other AIs have been confirmed to have the ability to create otaku, so the otaku thing is pretty much irrelevant.

Except Mirage's creation of five Otaku in Psychotrope.

QUOTE

using the SR definition of the terms, no one can create an AI.

Which is really the only definition that matters for the purposes of this discussion.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jan 6 2005, 09:08 AM)
The world would be a better place if everyone who thought Otaku were magical would get a clue.

You mean like the clue that there is absolutely nothing in canon suggesting they aren't? That clue?

It's not evidence that they are, obviously, but I'd like to know where you get off taking it as given that they aren't.

~J
Moon-Hawk
I love this argument.
They don't have a Magic attribute.
True. This tells us that they are not magically active in the same way that full magicians, adepts, and aspected magicians are; but then again, maybe that's not all there is to magic.

Much of Otaku are very game mechanically similar to magic.
Why? Is it because the game designers are just very, very lazy? That could be said of some game systems, but not SR. We know they're not lazy. Is it to be more streamlined, and have a more internally consistent system? I dunno, why start now? nyahnyah.gif But it's definitely a good reason; it could just be keeping them balanced and that's the way things worked out. Is it because they're magical? Well, it would make sense to use that system, then, but it's not conclusive. Is it symbolic? Maybe they're not magical at all, but the designers are using the game mechanics to intentionally show parallels for more symbolic reasons. It's an interesting idea.

Magic priority must be zero.
Some people think this proves that they are not magical. (this argument is obvious; I won't explain it) Some people think this proves that they are magical. If being Otaku had nothing to do with magic (like being elven, or albino), then their magic priority should be unrestricted. But just like you can't be a hougan and a hermetic, or you can't be a bear shaman and a psionicist, you can't be an Otaku and any other type of magician. The argument is basically saying that they can't be a magician in the usual sense because they already are a magician and you can't be two kinds at once. (Now the UMT makes this argument a little wonky, but not really since the UMT is still so underdeveloped)

So obviously being Otaku and being magical are somehow related. They are. There are canon statements that support this related to the creation of Otaku characters. Whether this relation is that they are or they aren't magical is debated, but it can not be argued that there is no connection between being Otaku and being magical since Otaku can't be conventional magicians. A prohibition is still a connection.

So the question you have to ask yourself (no matter which side of this particular fence you're on) is, given that
a) The state of being Otaku and the state of being magically active are somehow related, and
b) The game mechanics for otaku and magicians are in many ways very similar.
So given that, you have to ask yourself why these things are true? What's the point in prohibiting magically active Otaku. If someone wanted to put the character creation points into it, why add a rule to prevent it. It would eat up all your chargen points, but it's no crazier than the rigger-magician. Or the rigger-decker-magician. Or the rigger-decker-physmage. As crazy as these builds are, they're not prohibited. So what's so special about Otaku that they had to add a special rule prohibiting them from being magical. Plenty of other character combinations are bad ideas, but the only other place where two are absolutely prohibited is, as I mentioned, being two types of magician at the same time. So why? There must be a good reason to add this special prohibition.

note: Physmages are not two types of magician at the same time. They are an independent type of magician with a different set of abilities; for the same reason that a full magician is not a sorcery aspect and a conjuring aspect at the same time. It's another thing entirely.
mfb
moon-hawk, that doesn't make sense. you can lose magic from taking Deadly wounds; that doesn't mean that Deadly wounds are magical. it could easily be that the neurological changes an otaku goes through to gain his abilities simply alter him too profoundly for any magical abilities he has to work.
Moon-Hawk
Agreed. I never argued that Otaku were magical. But if people were going to be debating the point, I wanted to take it in a more interesting direction than "nu-uh" vs. "yuh-huh".
I think the neurological change is a very good point. The loss of magic due to deadly wounds is because there is such a massive shock to your system, away from it's natural state. "Away from it's natural state" being the important point, because goblinization is a much larger overall system shock but does not cause magic loss, but that's a natural change.
So if the neurological change precludes magic argument is true, then that implies that Otaku is not a natural state of being for any of them, not just the ones that we know were created by Deus or Psychotrope. Which strongly implies that all Otaku are created by some similar process (insight into the Deep Resonance?), rather than it being a natural state of being for them (such as an evolutionary jump) since natural changes do not cause magic loss.
Hmmm, interesting line of reasoning, mfb.
mfb
my reaction to magical otaku will be a knee-jerk, emphatic "nuh-uh" pretty much every time. i just don't like the idea of them being magical.

at some point in the past--possibly on one of the ur-Dumpshocks--i posted a fairly detailed explanation of how i think otaku work, based on what i learned of neurology in my single semester of psychology (ie, enough to probably get everything completely wrong). i'll repost what i remember of it now.

okay, first, you have to understand that children learn more easily than adults, especially young children. this is because of how brains work: when you learn something, that knowledge picks a path through the neural connections that make up your brain. if you reinforce that knowledge, it follows the same path, and that path becomes an indelible mark in your brain. the more you learn, and the more you reinforce that knowledge, the more firmly set those pathways become.

as the brain ages, it becomes very hard to change those pathways; not only do the pathways become more firmly set as they get reinforced over and over again, the brain simply becomes less able to make new pathways. this partly explains why older people sometimes seem more set in their ways than younger people--it's because they literally are, in one sense, set in their ways.

when an otaku immerses in the deep resonance, the resonance alters the otaku's pathways so that they can mimic the functions of a cyberdeck. this is not a natural configuration, though; it's sorta like holding your breath, only with your brain. because the brain is not meant to mimic cyberdeck functions, these pathways are necessarily temporary--but because the otaku are young, they can easily maintain those pathways by using their abilities, reforging and reinforcing those pathways and even creating new ones through further immersion.

as an otaku ages, however, his brain becomes less fluid. the pathways that must be maintained in order to mimic a cyberdeck become blurred and atrophied, and the otaku can't reforge them. eventually, the pathways disintegrate completely, and the otaku is no longer an otaku.
BitBasher
Also, literally, the definition of a mundane is someone with a zero magic attribute. Otakus meet this criteria. Without pulling some logic not in the game, the logic IN the game tells us they are in fact NOT magical. They have no magic attribute. That's what a mundane is.

OOC we do know for a fact otaku are not magical because they have no magic.

Also, otaku can SURGE and get a magic attribute, they two aren't totally exclusive, they just can't happen "naturally". There is no direct correlation there that can be used.
mfb
incidentally, the official ruling from the FAQ guys is, that point of magic is reduced by anything that reduces magic. so, most otaku (since they have datajacks) aren't ever going to notice that they have any magical potential at all, if they SURGE.

my personal view is that the character's magic should be treated as if it were 6, for purposes of calculating what's lost through essence reduction, bioware, etcetera. so, a char with SURGED magic 1 would be able to get 5 points of cyberware before he loses that point of magic.
Crimsondude 2.0
You really want do that, and give Otaku (in effect) magical abilities? Wow.

Have you been reading that Kenson novel where (ugh) SURGE happens... (shudder) again?

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jan 6 2005, 09:08 AM)
The world would be a better place if everyone who thought Otaku were magical would get a clue.

You mean like the clue that there is absolutely nothing in canon suggesting they aren't? That clue?

Well, by that logic then since canon doesn't say that metahumans aren't hell-spawned creatures made of pure energy and originally hailing fromMars, they might be!
mfb
heh, well. my preference here isn't really related to the otaku; it's related to other types of cyberware-using characters. i mean, with that ruling, almost no runners would ever actually recieve the benefits of that SURGE effect. how many runners are there with no cyber, no bioware, and no magic?

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You mean like the clue that there is absolutely nothing in canon suggesting they aren't? That clue?

as others have said, otaku are not magical in nature because they don't have a magic attribute. that's not a hint or an implication; it's a canon fact based solidly in how the game works. there's nothing in-game or in the rules that gets around this fact, ergo otaku are not magical.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Well, by that logic then since canon doesn't say that metahumans aren't hell-spawned creatures made of pure energy and originally hailing fromMars, they might be!


You're right, they might be. Only (wait for it) there's rather a lot suggesting that they aren't! OH MY GOD, TEH LOGIC!!!

~J
Dissonance
I dunno. Unless the Otaku package comes standard with Masking at rating 20, I'd think that their aura might give you a good clue, either way.

Otaku could have been created though a mana spike, but they themselves could be wholly mundane. Sort of divine evolution, or something along those lines?

Besides, who wants to be magical when you can be an Otaku? Matrix beats meatspace any day.
Kagetenshi
The aura is stated as being unusual in unknown ways. Inconclusive.

~J
BitBasher
Magic rating of zero: Conclusive wink.gif
Kagetenshi
Gaf seems to think that you can be magical with a magic rating of zero.

~J
BitBasher
Gaf?
hobgoblin
while they may not be able to channel or manipulate mana it seems that their aura and therefor their "soul" is diffrent to other peoples. maybe they are just more open to suggestion? who knows. in anyways it seems that the idea before sr3 was that their brains was somehow able to talk asist. but now with the need for either a internal or external asist converter the image becomes more muddy. maybe given their age they are able to basicly forget about the outside world and act upon the world created by the asist interface as if it was real? kinda like a kid will create invisible friends to play out some makebelive role or something.

still, asist was never supposed to be more then a fancy gui unless it realy is more then that. maybe asist is a kind of brain to chip interface, basicly a signal converter where in its raw state its just a tsunami of neural traffic. no wonder people freaked out. later on they deviced ways to train people to see the traffic as images and sounds, and then used that to develop a gui on top of that to make it simpler to use for the untrained. this would enable someone that start out useing asist at a early age to kind of talk raw asist with their brain. the user must create their own images around the signals, and thereby give form to the raw signals.

when a otaku wants to load a daemon they just think about their invisible friend, wishing he was here. the brain then takes the remeber features of this friend, how he sounds, how he looks, what he is able to do, and basicly creates the apropriate asist like signals.

the point is that we dont know where the asist system is located in the cyberdeck. it could be that the mpcp, the persona programs and all that basicly talks to the asist system and then the asist system talks to the net. but at present it seems as if the path is asist-mpcp-net rather then mpcp-asist-net. unless its user-asist-mpcp-asist-net.

the more i look at it the more i start to grasp the idea behind the sr otaku. they are kids that dont ask about what world is real and what is virtual, they just approach them both as if they are real. they dont have the mental cargo needed to define the real word. other matrix users are more like neo in reverse, born and raised in one world, so that when they meet the other head on their entire body and mind trys to resist and wake up from what they belive is at best a dream, at worst a nightmare.

asist is one of the jokers of the sr deck of cards, it enables electronic feats beyond what we can pull of today. its a computeing unknown, that seems to make some software and was of working useless or oldfashion. another joker is the crash and resulting rebuild, its stated that the net was rebuildt in the image of the corps. my guess is that this incorporates everything from drm solutions to laws protecting these system from being broken with heavy penaltys (maybe similar in pentalty to people handing over military secrets to hostily goverments?). yes the drms may be simple to break, but with every hookup marked with a id and locations, every compter haveing a id of some sort, the idea of invisibility on the net stops to be so for the common man. for that you have to basicly erase your very existance, stop buying computers over the counter, start useing unmarked (and therefor illegal) hookups. you have to become the ghost of the net.

how many today can build a computer from scrach, code and all? no prepackaged motherboard and cpu (they most likely contain atleast 1 fingerprint), no of the shelf graphics card. and after you make the chips and boards and connect them together you have to either write code that runs on top of it or get hold of existing code and audit it for code that is there to mark you as someone and report on your actions. spyware in sr isnt something "bad", its a feature buildt into every piece of software comeing from the corps. stated to help them be more responsive and effective, and to help in the continual impovement of the software, it realy is there to make sure you do nothing wrong.

this is a feat similar to building a home computer and the latest linux os useing a chip burner and a so on. hell, if your realy paranoid you may want to build the chipburner to, maybe it inserts id codes upon burn. and what about the computer your useing to build these parts and this code? in the computeing world, paranoia isnt a illness, its a way of life.

sorry for this rant, its allmost finished.

what people often fail to see when they attack the crash is the "ignorance" of the people. how many today knows how a virus works, or a trojan, or a worm? how many do you not think is terrified of connecting their computer online for fear of haveing to become a bomb or a very expensive table-leg? then the corps come along and say that they have these new computers that fixes all that, that will make the net secure to use, and that solves all the problems of old. how many do you think will buy them and dont even think about the drm and other tech in there to monitor and limit how the computer gets used?

the corps today have a big problem, the computer marked have gained a very big inertia based on backwards compatiblity towards legacy devices and software. what they realy want is to wipe the slate clean and introduce a new set of devices and software that have drm at its core and that the corps can trust to not allow the user to pirate something.

just look at how microsoft and others strike down on supplyers of mod chips that help bypass the copy prevention features of their consoles. basicly these are the forrunners of the deckmeisters. people that supply the wares and the chips out of the back room somewhere.

we that watch the tech industry get a slanted view of the knowledge people have, just like reading the sr books gives us a slanted view of how the sr world is. for every tech person (self-tought or other) there may be as many as 100 people that think of the computer of some sort of advanced typewriter or videomachine. they dont know that the sp2 and xbox can be chipped so that they can run pirate games, and if they know then maybe they dont see the need to wants to risk the prosess as if its messed up then they cant get a new one from the maker.

hell, with services like xbox live you cant even show up with a chiped box as you risk being locked out (or in the sr world, get a letter with a warning of jailtime if you dont say where you got the goods). fud is a powerfull weapon, way more powerfull then some people may thing...

i guess that covers it, rant out...
Jrayjoker
Or they could have burned out their magic in order to connect to the Matrix on a deeper level, sacrificing one sixth sense for another.
Fortune
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jan 7 2005, 03:43 PM)
Gaf?

Free Spirit from Threats 2 ... associated with the Aleph Society.

The thing with this idea is that, IIRC, the mundane members never actually gain magic. It's the burnouts that can recover some of their lost magic through Initiation and a Spirit Pact.
Kagetenshi
But they can still have a magic attribute of zero and recover.

~J
Jrayjoker
Good point. But if they only pursue the Matrix end of things and never even realize that they have Magic as an option, then any Karma goes to the Deep Resonance, not the Metaplanes.
mfb
Shared Potency does not really allow a character to gain or regain their magic. it simply grants them access to Potency. characters who "regain" their magic through Shared Potency aren't accessing their magic when they use their magical abilities; they're accessing the magic of the Shared Potency. this is demonstrated by the fact that on any turn in which a magician who "regained" his magic through Shared Potency is unable to access Gaf's power, all of their magical abilities--including any magic they've gained through initiation since the Shared Potency ritual--fail.

and, at any rate, it doesn't apply to people who started out with 0 magic; only those who were brought to 0 through loss.
BitBasher
Aaaah, I thought he was named Tutor, not Gaf. My memory fails me.

Yeah, either way the whole Shared Potency thing that I was going to mention in that case has already been covered.
SirKodiak
QUOTE
Which is really the only definition that matters for the purposes of this discussion.


Unless one wants to discuss the question "can a decker make a program that matches the real world definition of an AI, even if that program doesn't match the Shadowrun definition of AI?" That's a perfectly reasonable question.
Herald of Verjigorm
Tutor/Mentor/mock-totem is a different spirit in the other Threats book.
Kremlin KOA
okayt shared potency is just so SEVERAL people at once can share Gaf's pact if oe person who is burned out makes one pact with one Gaf like spirit the magic don't stop
mfb
i interpret the above inebriated madness to say that just because the potency is being shared between different people doesn't mean that it isn't their magic. right?

that's not what Threats 2 says. the potency gained from Shared Potency is based on Gaf's spirit energy. if Gaf's spirit energy is decreased, so is the potency of all the magicians linked to him. the power isn't theirs, it's Gaf's; Gaf is just allowing them to use it, in exchange for some unknown benefit.
Fortune
And the recipients of Gaf's Potency still have to have been Awakened in the first place (even if their Magic has been reduced to 0). Mundanes can not gain the benefits from Shared Potency in the slightest.
Sandoval Smith
There is no real difference between the SR definition of an AI, and the real world definition. In this context, they both mean a self aware and sentient computer program. The difference lies in how they are achieved.

Basically, if a player wants their very own Deus or Megaera, nuh-uh, never going to happen, for the same reasons that players don't get to have their own Megacorp, or Great Dragon. If they just want a computer program that can do a good imitation of a real person, that's much more reasonable. It won't be an true AI, but it should perfectly suit the player's desires. It also won't require 30,000,000,000 nuyen in resources to build and be a matrix god, which should suit the GM's desires as well.

As for how computers work in SR, as opposed to today, I just shrug and say that the changes programing and physical design had to undergo in order fully utilize cyberdecks and iconic interface is so different from todays computer fields, that it's like saying 'All this talk about playstations is absolutely ridiculous. I know punchcard programming, and there is absolutely no way you can make a 'home console' with punchcards. They simply don't work that way.'
Dissonance
It's also hinted that if all of Gaf's initiates tap that pool at once, something might explode. Most likely Gaf.

As for the actual AI Question? No. A decker cannot make an AI on the level of the Non-statted net deities that are the big three. Or however many there are. A decker would have to be hot shit and have absolutely no free time to even think of cranking out a decent SK that thought it was sentient, but wasn't. The idea of creating AI, let alone a subservient AI when it's far superior to YOU, meatbag, makes baby Jesus cry.

Now, if you're asking whether or not a decker could serve as the spark that allows an SK program to become an AI... biggrin.gif

Still a longshot, but, hey. Dodger did it.
Kagetenshi
Nonetheless, it is a canon example of someone with a Magic attribute of zero being meaningfully different from a mundane.

~J
Jrayjoker
Dis,
The difference is that Dodger didn't "do" it. He was just in the right place at the right time and happened to catch the proto-AIs attention with his madskilz.
Kagetenshi
No, he did do it. The distinction you want is that he wasn't trying to do it.

Lots of weird stuff beyond the black wall.

~J
Jrayjoker
What specific act caused the jump to self awareness? I don't recall it, and I always had the impression the AI about to become Morgan was shocked into awareness as a secondary result of some of Dodger's actions/reactions to the host he was in at the time.
Fortune
Actually, Dodger and Sam did it. That's why she (it) considers both of them her parents, in a way.
Sandoval Smith
It was their interaction that proved to be the 'X' factor that allowed Megaera to become a self aware being. However, this really doesn't apply to the original question, since they didn't actually _make_ her. Through coincidence they were just part of a larger process. Since the intent of the original question is, "Can a decker sit down with a programming suite and code their own AI?" the answer is still no.
Cynic project
My first post was this

"By "AI" I mean a program that is capable of learning from outside stimuli.

And is there away to set up a smart agent to be so linked to your icon that it is impassable to tell where you and it start/stops? At least from most outside viewer"

So people stop thinking I want da uber AIs from the 80's.
Kagetenshi
Then stop using the term AI. Talk about what you want your Agent or Semiautonomous Knowbot (which is also beyond PC coding ability) to do instead.

As for tying it in that closely, with some special code I'd allow it. Not sure as there's a canon support, though.

~J
mfb
okay, let's do this: don't call that an AI. it's confusing. in SR, a program capable of learning and adapting is not necessarily an AI.

what you're talking about can be accomplished with an agent or S-K. so, yes: a decker can create a program capable of learning from outside stimuli.
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