Are there any pre-made stats for the human/ork/elf/whatever enemies?
If so: Where can i find them?
If not: Please, could you post some stat examples? (I tend to make things that's too unbalanced, either anyone could take them out or not even T-1000 could!)

So, would you (holy gods of all things SR) mind giving me some examples of foes or examples of books where they might dwell? PLEEEASE?

well you could just use the archetypes from sr3. character stats appear in almost any of the 3rd edition core books. i know matrix and sr companion have contact stats. you could pick up an adventure book or two and just use characters out of that.

however in my opinion, at least fasa's pre-mades not sure about wizkids don't have any new adventures, are a little under par for my runners.

unbalanced? what are you talking about, sr isn't unbalanced.

my enemies are!

Enemy 1. Easy guard, gets killed in hundreds at a time like nothing
Enemy 2 (A little more karma). Easy Soldier, can do L damage at most, gets killed in hundreds like nothing.
Enemy 3. T-1000+Cyberzombiefromhell+Toxic Insect Blood magician=Enemy nr.3

(Not exactly, but i have a hard time balancing the foes! they either go "Ping" of the runners or the runners go "SPLAGHUT!" by just looking at them)

Hmmmm... ...judging from the person who started this, I would assume this will be another 'post your munchies here' thread, like that one 'munchie weapons you can customize' thread.

No SC, not more of your request for munchies! no pleeaaassee SSTTTOOPP!!!

sir fwank, he wasnt referring to SR being unbalanced, its his NPC's who are.

At least, i see you've gotten over the bad habit of spamming with smileys.

Hey SC! i bet you there'll be someone here telling you "its not the stats that matters. Its all about tactics, dude, tactics.".

I hereby promise, on my big stack of SR and D&D books, that i shall never ask for munchkins again, nor shall i ever spam with smileys!

Honestly.... i just want some small help, pointers, stats, tactics, WHAT... EVER.... to make a foe a balanced threat, not a "1 shot" foe and not a "Instant Death" enemy, just something that can give them a few M's and S AFTER the lowering of damage (i can shoot the teams troll with a panther and he'll get away with L or nothing..... while the mage can't take a hold-out in the leg, so i'm having a problem to say the least)

Well, even one-shot-kill guards can cause some serious damage to runners if you play them intelligently.
The guards know the facility far better than the runners will; have them duck for cover, fall back to prepare ambushes, flank them through other hallways, lead them in front of gun turrets, etc..
Nobody's just going to stand there and plink away until they're gunned down.

Mage with all sorts of indirect spells, illusions, control manipulation...

... rethinking your tactics with the 'easy' guards. Why do they get killed easily? what did they do wrong? Rethink tactics. Containment over outright assaulting until heavy artillery arrives, meanwhile, PCs are on their toes thinking of how to get out.

ok. heres my standard sr rules for security/bodyguards/bad guys in general.

1. i'm a security guard i'm allowed to have this SMG. uzi 3 costs 600 or sandler tmp costs 500, which is a little more than predator.
2. no one actually fires a smg on SA, thats what pistols are for.
3. my company issued me this nice armor jacket (5/3)
4. i love my wife/girlfriend/etc. i'm going to get behind whatever i can to keep my head down.
5. i'll just call for backup.

-----advanced stuff (aka how to own runners)
6. gernades, always remember gernades only do S damage meaning they can't actually kill anything out right. (unless you are using Anti-Personnell, but everyone wears armor)
7. my company issued me these non-standard rounds (apds, ex explosive, etc)
8. i work at random corp zero location, i've got security grade armor, and cyberwizzywoo. not to mention my ak97(chrome cuz i'm cool) with apds and smartlink 2.
9. rigger security system.
10. gas delivery system.

dunno, i'm running out of good ones. seriously, sr is a very deadly system. the condition monitor is just designed that way. i know i'm the super lethal gm, because at one point dr.pain was losing a character a session (comparied to some other gms who have lost like 3 characters total). i'm a little unforgiving when people take 20+D damage, but we all like the realism of "you just took how many EX rounds?" or "52D from playing motorcycle chicken?"

best ways to even security to runners i know of is
1. numbers
2. reaction enhancers
3. armor
4. burst fire
5. spirit (confusion, engluf)
6. manaball
7. location
8. gernades (concussion, flash, smoke, etc)
9. vindicator minigun
10. lofwyr

Even the lowest grade, cheapest rent-a-cop can do wonders when coordinated properly. You might want to tell us how your players are capable of easily eliminating your sec. guards, so that we can come up with good answers.

*Takes advice to the heart* ah! much better!

The problem my guards do is: They exist! combat goes like this:

Sammy goes first, getting 25 or something
Mage goes second, quickened imp.initiative 3 to get 22 or something
Guards go last, getting between 8 and 14 in general....

Sammy: Full auto, i attack four guards, three with 3 round bursts and the last one with the last shot! *rolls a crapload of dice*
So there, 4 guards dead, 3-6 left

Mage: Powerball! *rolls a crapload of dice*
No survivors, the guards didn't even understand what happened!

Then the alarm sounds and the MGS kinda game turns into Metal Slug.....

now, i'll have a better chance to do some damage (and to let the poor chummers survive for 6 seconds or more)! WEE! thanks!

what you need is mantrap/killing jar. defensive landscaping/archetecture. or just make it so they can't take in their big gear. somehow. personally i punish the plan A run in shooting strategy. you need to answer with more force or something. or stop using guards with out reaction enhancers.

Now that you've enumerated the problem, its alot simpler to deal with it. Use of cover is the simplest way to deal with that kind of problem.

Tactics like "while PC's engage the group of guards on one side, another group of guards sneak from another side and take pot shots and throw grenades at the PCs. Meanwhile as the guards start to move out of the complex, the lockdown sequence is initiated to contain the intruders. At that time, the Police is alerted and is on its way". That should keep your PCs pinned down for a while. Of course, you leave your players' options open, allowing them to make either a smart choice of looking for a way out while the cops are coming, or the stupid choice of engaging the cops instead.

ah, in other words: the first squad is toast, the others shall use tactics, right?

weeeell, you dont necessarily have to get the first squad 'toast'. That's what cover is for. They're just diversion for the second squad to remain unnoticed so they can deal some decent (M-S?) damage with their standard light/heavy pistols. At that point, the first squad starts pulling out, then the second squad tosses grenades, so the players will scatter and look for cover. The second squad pulls out and locks the players inside the complex as the police arrives.

*raises hand* Uhm, sir? almighty god of SR? how large is the first group? because the Sammy can kill as many enemies as he can fire bullets, the mage can throw manabolts or powerballs (or toxic waves) and kill 4-8 persons in one shot, HOW in the name of Big D can i make the squad survive longer? Cyberzombie trolls?

Remember that normal street punks like LoneStar troopers are told to geek the mage first. The mage are probably told to geek the troll first.
Those LoseStar dudes and dudettes have Jazz™ poppers. Other guards probably have other kid of speed-drugs, like kamikaze or PCP.
Also gas is a pretty cheap way of taking care of the problem, even CS gas works wonders.

@SolidCobra
Your Sammie can do that even with cover and other visual modifiers? Then run the hell out, cover all entrances with ALL available security, bring out the ARs and body armour, setup a barricade and wait for the cops. Since your guards are waiting to takedown anything that comes out of the facility, i'd consider it as ambush. Anyone who opens the door and tries to get out makes a surprise test against the guards with a +8 modifier. The guards, being braced and ready, only roll against the base.

As for the cops, they should be overkill against the runners. The first thing they should consider is to have an ENORMOUS advantage against the enemy, either by numbers, or by firepower, or both. No self respecting police organization would send some patrols just to get eaten alive by a bunch of runners. It should be overwhelming odds against your players. It should make your players think of other options than just engaging them. And any player stupid enough to fight them, unless very lucky, or very smart, ought to get incapacitated or die.

Now this is without the aid of a mage.

Don't forget that your opponents don't have to be (meta)humans. Drones and spirits could banace out and add interest to the oposition. Drones are harder to hit (remember the one damage level reduction for vehicles), have hardened armor and don't care about Mana spells (though toxic wave should work against them). Spirits have immunity to Normal Weapons, among other, more interesting powers (Accident, for example, or using Concealment on a team of guards sneaking into position behind the runners).

And remember that the opposition usually has far more resources than the runners. They could call for large numbers of re-enforcements, call for armor/thunderbird/air/astral/SWAT support, and (atleast the better-trained guards) know their terrotory well, both literally and figuratively - they'll know the best places to take cover, the best ways to sneak up on the runners and so on.

The sam can kill as many targets as he fires bullets? You *are* reading the shooting mods table, the same one I have, with the +2 tn per target past the first listing? Even with SL-2 and no recoil his TNs for those shots would be 2, 4, 6, 8, etc... and thats at short range. Theres no way he can get enough successes to down all those guys in one go. And if the mage is using powerball, realize that it will destory the non-people stuff in its area too.

Any team constantly using fully automatic weapons fire and area effect damage spells is going to draw a lot of heat from their target, the cops, and their employer. No Johnson wants you to level a building when you extract someone, it just makes the retribution by the targeted corp more vicious. And no runners should want that kinda heat.

Just have the Johnson specify "no major damage to the target site" in the pitch, and have the guards get in some cover (which works against magic too btw). That alone should solve the problem entierly. The runners can choose to make their employer unhappy (bad for rep and life expectancy) and the guards will last a lot longer. Problem solved.

O..... M....... F...... G!!!!!!!!!!!!
i have yet to even THINK about the +2 per target mod! that will cut his overkilling down a lot! Hmm...... drones.... spirits......
ah, now that is even more good advice (and a reminder of the rule i missed).....



thanks!!!!

Whoa, whoa, wait a sec whitedwarf. Its their game and they wanna play it like Quake. We cant do anything if what they're after is combat. If the GM keeps on preventing them, just so 'to capture the essence of SR' then might as well run another game.

@SolidCobra
One question: Are your players having fun killing dozens of sec. guards? Is that how they want you to run the game, except your only having problems of giving them some equal challenge, so you ask for our help?

yes, exactly!

The players love killing stuff, and i have killed their characters with some almighty cyberzombie blood mage lv.10 initiate (not exactly, but you get the point, right?) before, they didn't like it.....

i wanted some help here in making combat more...... interesting for them, now i can do that..... i'm thinking of lots of spirits with accident and a few T-800 like drones....... all going for cover when they aren't attacking...... that should give the players something to sweat for, and something to use their combat pool for as well.....

Try looking at this and this. Should give you some ideas on how to use the Barney's.

first, stay away from the terminators, bad cobra BAD.

next, use the security deckers to relay information to the guards, who are throwing smoke grenades, normal grenades and being smart, they will do anything not to die today. after all, this is just a job. guards will surrender if outnumbered, call for back up, throw a grenade and retreat etc.don't have 3 guards standing in the middle of the hallway shooting randomly. have 2 hide around corners, and maybe 2-3 more trying to get the jump on the runners. have a guard hit the alarm, then make all hell break loose, red lights flashing, sirens blaring all distract the runners, and give them a sense of urgency which could make them make mistakes. have lonestar or equivilent be ready outside if the alarm sounds, or if a guard calls them. dont be like "oh no jim died, i must avenge him!" real guards are like "jim died, im getting the hell out of here, and callin the police!"

this isn't quake, where everything must die, remember that. getting hit by 3-4 tasers will suck alot of ass for a runner

"Your players will probably go through your NPC's like papiere-mache, a situation which often leads to PC vs GM power escalations that rapidly get out of hand"......
GOD! AM I THAT GUILTY?

For anyone reading the link Flakjacket posted, remember that while the tactics given aren't bad, the bit about thermographic vision and bleed-through is absurd unless the walls are practically see-through with normal vision, too.

~J

In addition to the rules for switching targets, remember that combat spells only work against targets that the spellcaster can see. If a guard is crouching behind a barricade, powerball won't affect him.

Also, if they are attacking the front gate, remember that it will be designed to repel intruders. For example, you could have four big spotlights glare down on the runners. The guards have no darkness modifiers, while the runners have to deal with both darkness and glare. Or maybe at the first sign of an attack, they seal the gates and sound a general alarm.

For security guards, give them an armored jacket, and a heavy pistol, a submachine gun with decent recoil compensation, or a shotgun firing slugs. Give them a Body of 5, a Combat Pool of 6, and other stats around 4 or so (these aren't mall or airport security guards, after all - they work at places where being attacked by people with guns is a real possibility). Give them a skill in their primary weapon of 5 or so. And don't have them stay bunched together! You will find, if your group doesn't kill 8-10 of them on their first initiative, that a group of security guards can be quite a threat.

Personally, I think Glyphs numbers are a bit over the top, remember that a skill of 3-4 represents a 'professional' level of training. I'd expect most 'good' guard to have:

Stats: straight 3s, with maybe B4 or Q4 or S4
Guns 3-4
Beating people op 2-3
Add in a smartlink and boosted-1

With most 'rent-a-cops' having straight 3s for stats and skills in the 2-3 range.

The 'average' combat-wombat runner with 5s and 6s in both stats and skills is supposed to be an exceptional specimen...

In a small unit situation, surprise, speed, and overwhelming firepower usually do wipe out the other side. There are some tactics that reduce these 'shock effects' like bounding, defense in depth, and reaction training, but most guards don' tend to get that sort of training.

Liberal application of shotguns with stun rounds can ruin a runner's day in a relatively low-security area. Remember the massive TN subtractions of shotgun spreads; even if they're only doing damage with a power of 2, they're doing 2S damage with a large number of successes to back it up.

~J

Ok, my presumption at this point is Cobra's runners are not hitting AAA megacorps, and perhaps not even their shell companies or fronts.

But even if they're knocking over liquor stores for kicks, every business in the 2060s assuredly has some form of surveilance/security camera. Not to get elitist, but these runners seem really, really sloppy. So, if they're used to going through sec guards like kleenex, let them. If they manage to get out of the complex before Lone Star gets there, so be it. The follow up investigators will look at the electronic recording of the dirty deeds and plaster their faces all over North America's Most Wanted (or just local news, if you don't want to glorify their actions). After that, their reps are ruined and they're a Citymaster away from being taken in dead or alive. New Seattle has a good system for response times and stats for the cops BTW.

If you are using AAA mega's, you've been too soft. No need for the cyberzombie. Corp strike teams should probably come in after the team "deals" with the second set of regular security. What you do for these guys is make them essentially from scratch as you would a PC, but not bothering with resources, the corp gives them their stuff. They should be about equivalent with your PCs and have about the same Karma pool. Heck, your tissue paper guards get at least one karma pool too. Save it for when they're trying not to die.

P.S. Not to shill, but the GM screen for Shadowrun happens to be very handy. Much better than most of its type I would say.

Revenge is not economical. Why send your strike team out when you can either:
1 hire the team and send them against people you don't like
2 hire the team and then double cross them
3 a combimation of 1 and 2 at the same time...

The most this is going to cost is around 50K, just getting your strike team to your location will cost that much.

Option 1 could end up costing a lot more than 50K, assuming the runners were good enough to defeat your (excellent, right?) security.

I'd say that except in cases where the runners know too much to be left alive, going after them is really more a deterrent factor than a personal thing. If Mitsuhama manages to frag everyone who majorly torques them off, runners are going to be reluctant to run against them. Of course, I don't see strike teams being used in anything but a very small fraction of cases, for a number of reasons, economics among them.

I don't know. You guys seem to figure strike teams are only operating like special forces assault units. Generally, I simply envision them as a SORT located on sensitive sites. Which is not to say that elite strike teams aren't sent out on dangerous corp war type stuff, it's just that the whole point of having shadowrunners around is to deflect the cost and blame away from your company when stuff needs to go down. That is the advantage of using shadowrunners. In any case, there should be something between say Renraku Red Samurai and dip-stick corp security patrolman. Note: Should the runners get off site and out of the extra-territoriality zone, it's more efficient by and large to sick Lone Star and or the FBI on them after handing over the relavent security feeds. Of course, a company's SORT is probably trying to prevent the team from leaving in any manner other than feet first.

Regarding security mages, I've found that they seem to be most effective operating on pure defence. Assuming the mundane security guards are engaging intruders, a security mage maintaining an Astral Barrier spell will keep any intruding mages from popping off security guards too quickly. Teaching a facility's sole security mage astral barrier isn't very expensive, but if the facility has a bit more money to throw around, they could have permanent astral barriers set into place that are attuned to the security mages. The astral equivalent of defensive architecture.

Also, I agree with CanvasBack about the GM's screen - it *is* worth getting.

Getting to know the combat modifiers will be your biggest advantage. Make sure defence has the +4 partial cover bonus, and if security outnumbers the shadowrunners, use burst fire - every three rounds coming at a target modify their Dodge TN# by +1. It seems at first glance that this would mostly benefit the fast-moving samurai, but the security guards should be relying mostly on cover to protect against incoming fire. Even a few leftover guards should burn any targets of their remaining Combat Pool pretty quickly.

And it doesn't even increase the security budget by too much....