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Mugzy
After looking in the SR3 ruls and MiTS, I can't seem to find any instance where a mage from astral space is able to ground a spell through an active foci, provided the spell is a non-targeted, area of effect spell, and using the foci's rating as the resistance factor. Also, the Grimoire 2 alluded to being able to ground through quickened spells, as they were open "vorticies" to astral space, using the spell's rating as the resistance factor.

If I recall correctly, in 2nd Ed, this was a good reason to get masking to mask those foci, and to put a balancing factor on the quickened/locked spell guy, as it would destroy the bond between the mage and the focus, requiring a re-bonding.

I think I remember SR3 saying something about open vorticies to astral space, but not saying anything about grounding spells through foci directly.

Anyone have any info on this? If not, anyone have any house rules? All the games Ive seen about are mage heavy, and this is a great balancing factor to that, being as magic is supposed to be rare.
Bigity
This can't be done anymore except with house rules.

All you can do in 3rd edition is to attack the foci or spells themselves, but it won't carry through to the physical plane.
Fortune
Grounding of any type as described in earlier versions of Shadowrun does not exist in SR3.

And good riddance!
Jrayjoker
So, what is the real balancing factor that is supported by canon? If a mage isn't making him/herself a target then what is the drawback to anchoring/quickening a bunch of spells all the time?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
So, what is the real balancing factor that is supported by canon? If a mage isn't making him/herself a target then what is the drawback to anchoring/quickening a bunch of spells all the time?

Focus addiction.
Jrayjoker
So, how bad is that. If I want to play that then I will. There are plenty of other ways to get killed and a lot of them are more likely.

I don't have my books here, what are the drawbacks of focus addiction?
toturi
Wards, malicious spirits, FAB, to name a few. Otherwise the karma costs keep things manageable

Quickening doesn't add to Focus addiction, Anchoring does.
Namergon
About karma cost : anchoring is much more expensive, and the drain is suffered when the spell is triggered, another new drawback.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
I don't have my books here, what are the drawbacks of focus addiction?

Magic Loss, but [focus addiction] won't affect Quickening.

If you want to mess with an abusive magician, Imps are fun.
Jrayjoker
Too true KT

I like mine to be a bit less evil, but certainly Karma drainers so the mage has a harder time advancing any skills, etc.
Canid13
If I think my mage players are getting a little too OTT I slap a nice fat background count on them or have an NPC attack a focus.

Mostly though, my mage player is sensible with his use of magic.
Jrayjoker
There sure is a lot to keep track of in the astral world, isn't there.

Liek I said before, I don't have my books. Does it specifically state anywhere that it is now impossible to ground through a focus?
Canid13
I think it does in the main rulebook when it's talking about spellcasting and targeting for spells. Could be in the focus/astral object section though.
Mugzy
I, for one, see the need to slap the mages around every once in a while. A manabolt is just as deadly as a .45 slug, and mages that I know tend to expect to get away with more.

If I remember, grounding was only an option when using a non targeted area of effect spell, becasue specific targeting between planes was impossible.
bitrunner
i, for one, am sorry to see grounding go...

for one, it seemed to fit with the magical concept of "as above, so below", and so if something was dual natured, like an active focus, you could ground a spell through it...the whole point was that you were creating a "bridge"....

why is it that you can possess someone and affect the mundane world, but not ground anymore??

i liked nothing better than having a team protecting a mage in the center, only to have an astral mage drop a manaball down through the link - frying out the focus in the process... (note that you should have to defeat the focus, and any left over damage/successes would then transfer to the mundane world)

i'd at least like to see this return as a metamagic ability...
Jrayjoker
I'm with bitrunner. The mage casting the spell also has to resist physical drain for casting while astral, a disincentive if I ever heard of one.
Mugzy
Bit, thats brilliant. A Grounding metamagic technique would be a great way to put a little caution into the focus heavy spellslinger.
The concept of a bridge is still there to an extent it seems, but grounding seems to have been mysteriousley omitted altogether, with no reference saying you can or cant shove an AoE spell through
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
There sure is a lot to keep track of in the astral world, isn't there.

Liek I said before, I don't have my books. Does it specifically state anywhere that it is now impossible to ground through a focus?

Both SR3 core rules and MITS make no mention of grounding anywhere, so therefore it doesn't exist. It caught me and my players off-guard too.

Speaking of changes, you don't get to move you Quickness each action anymore like in SR2 either. wink.gif
Jrayjoker
Ouch to the limit on movement. I suppose you could make a lot of headway, potentially more than your movement allowable (including multiplier), if you were wired to the gills and had three initiative phases and were a dwarf.

bitrunner, should we start an email campaign to Wizkids/FanPro to get a new metamagic technique in the next magic book?
Cochise
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Does it specifically state anywhere that it is now impossible to ground through a focus?

No it doesn't but that's not necessary either. Spell Targeting in SR3 requires two things:

1. You must see your target and
2. you must be on the same plane as the target

=> A purely astrally present mage can only cast a spell against astrally active targets.

An active focus is dual natured
=> It is present on the astral. People surrounding the physical part of the focus aren't present however => They are no valid targets for the caster and thus are unaffected.

The next thing that removes grounding from the SR3 scenario is the reorganisation of spell categories. Grounding required a magician to channel a physical spell through an anctive focus (other dual-natured entities IIRC weren't even mentioned in the rule, so Grouding through spirits and the like at least to my memory wasn't possible either). In SR3 however it's impossible to even cast physical spells on the astral plane ...
Fortune
QUOTE (bitrunner)
i liked nothing better than having a team protecting a mage in the center, only to have an astral mage drop a manaball down through the link

Except this was never the way Grounding worked. An Area-Effect Physical spell was needed. Since (as was said above) Physical spells can no longer be cast on the Astral as of SR3, Grounding is no longer possible.
Cray74
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
If a mage isn't making him/herself a target then what is the drawback to anchoring/quickening a bunch of spells all the time?

Getting all those precious spells and the karma in them nuked by a malicious spirit. You can hide a 10,000-nuyen ubyrgun under armor, but foci, anchored spells, and quickened spells are dangling nude in the astral breeze.
Jrayjoker
I would argue that the ubergun would be as visible under the coat as a lightly masked anchor or quickened spell in the astral. And what benefit does a random spirit gain by blasting an anchored/quickened spell, about as much benefit as a second runner does in trying to grab the gun. The only active danger is in combat I would think.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
The only active danger is in combat I would think.

Becasue enemies never plan ahead, eh? wink.gif
Jrayjoker
Hey, if someone is actively screwing with you and trailing you on the astral, then fine. When I am on a run I tend to act a bit paranoid and check things like that out all the time. Also, if soemone knows I am coming and send a spirit or mage to screw with me before I get there, so be it. I can back off and replan with the new information. Not having a spell erupt around me in a van on the highway is a good thing, and I can do the same thing back to my opponent.
Fortune
None of the Corps have Astral patrols in your games?
Jrayjoker
I do more street level stuff. Gangs, Mafia, some mom and pop corps. No A, AA, or AAA yet. Believe me, as soon a this crew is ready they will be in for it big time.
Fortune
Well, another drawback would be that anything magical, whether that be Spells, Foci, Formuli, or what-have-you that is over Force 2 is illegal without a permit.
LinaInverse
So are most Pistols, Cyberwear, Rifles, Biowear, and other gear. I don't see people avoiding them because of legality issues.
Jrayjoker
Also, knowing a spell is easier to conceal than a sniper rifle.
Canid13
But having it in an Anchoring focus isn't, not on the astral.
Mugzy
Agreed J. With Optical Vision mag and a manabolt spell, a mage can snipe away happily, with almost nary a thought.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing mages, but I have to say, without something to equalize rampant focus use (besides addiction.. thats not that bad really), and without making all mages take bio-rejection from square one, its no wonder it seems over half of the people creating characters on here are spellslingers.

Mages were powerful enough already before drain codes were pussed out and grounding was surreptitiously not included.

Legality isnt really the answer. Most players dont care if they're equipped with mil-spec cyberware that would get them thrown in the can for the rest of their lives, so making force 3 and higher illegal wont do anything.

A grounding metamagic or something similar would be great. Even using a mana spell, like manaball through it to effect those non-awakened guys or non astral people using too many foci for their own good would be great. Masking should have a purpose beyind showing off most of the time anyway....
Jrayjoker
I don't think everyone here makes mages. I think a lot of people here aren't afraid of the extra rules and inherent complexity of mages, etc.

What mages should do IMHO is wait for metamagic masking before using focuses, and masking the hell out of them when they are in use. Same with quickened spells. That will put a damper on their use and limit focus addiction quite nicely.

Of course, who's players would ever do that?
BitBasher
QUOTE
Legality isnt really the answer. Most players dont care if they're equipped with mil-spec cyberware that would get them thrown in the can for the rest of their lives, so making force 3 and higher illegal wont do anything.
Wow, your game and my game are very, very different. In my game actions have consequences.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Mugzy)
Don't get me wrong, I love playing mages, but I have to say, without something to equalize rampant focus use (besides addiction.. thats not that bad really), and without making all mages take bio-rejection from square one, its no wonder it seems over half of the people creating characters on here are spellslingers.

How long have you played SR? Hopefully you've managed to play all different types of characters, mages included. Of the groups I've played with, we've managed to weed-out the min/max types and try and focus more on roleplaying personalities rather than "my X is better than your Y" type class comparisons.

Personally, I think an "all mage" group would be interesting, but it does have it's weaknesses. Magic isn't the "end-all-be-all" problem solver, but it can be useful sometimes.
bitrunner
eh, i couldn't remember off the top of my head if it was mana or physical - i just remember it had to be AOE...

i'm a big advocate though of doing anything that will level the playing field where magic is concerned - even if it takes other magic to do it...so i hope something like Grounding can be established.

if nothing else, having too many quickened spells and foci that aren't masked should lure in astral entities that are curious or hungry - after all, i came up with Strain III, it must be about time for Strain IV - quicker, more mobile...kinda like the vapor vampire that was on the old Star Trek series - ahh, decend over a mage, suck his foci and quickened spells dry...i'll sleep good tonight! wobble.gif
Kanada Ten
If mages are such a problem in your games then perhaps you should consider altering the F/2 drain to straight Force.

I would hate to see Grounding come back in it's old form, though I previously suggested a Metamagic similar to Possession that allows a projecting magician to posses active foci to overcome the supposed problem.
bitrunner
that's exactly what i did in my home campaign - but i can't do that in Missions - it's canon...ya gotta take the bad with the good....
fistandantilus4.0
I prefer tto use the grounding rules. If nothing else, it makes mages think twice before quickening a F8 armor spell and an incresed reflexes +3D6 to themselves. karma can be earned back, but the idea of being picked off from the Astral plane when you're not paying attention can and does make them think twice.
Even having it as metamagic really cuts back on that. It's not as scary if only the elite can do it.
Mugzy
I've been playin SR for a while, since late first edition, but what Ive run into in the world of online SR has been a completely different ball o' wax.

Ive tried a few online SR Mud's, and in each of those, mages were so prevalent, and so heavily used/abused, the players began to take all their advantages for granted.

When the twinked ork mage goes to a meet with a mafioso and enters his office invisible, rapping his staff on the floor to let the mafia guys know he was there, as opposed to announcing his presence or showing any sign of respect, and the goons dont even give him a dirty look... ( A bit of a bad example I know really...)

.....it's hard to look at a mage in a favorable light.

In tabletop, seldom do these things happen. I suppose things are different everywhere you go.


Where was I going with this? I think I forgot....
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
I prefer tto use the grounding rules. If nothing else, it makes mages think twice before quickening a F8 armor spell and an incresed reflexes +3D6 to themselves.

So you've made spells dual-natured again?
Fortune
Looks like he's using house rules on top of house rules.
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