A while back there was a topic about the brain size of trolls and their intelligence.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=6379

If I remeber correctly from reading that post the overall consensus was that size really did not matter and the racial modifiers were unrealistic. I have come up with the following new edges and flaws that can replace the mental modifiers.

I am starting a new campaign this Thursday and I want to try out these house ruling on the racial modifiers. Here is the total chargen Build Point system. I plan on using the Low-level Campaing modified a bit

I would like comments on the Edges and Flaws, and maybe any proposed Bp cost for Races

Here it is:

Build Point Table

· Start with 85 BP
· Full Magicians start with 18 Spell Points (Note: Spell Points can be spent to bond Foci as per the Karma cost.)
· Aspected Magicians start with 25 Spell Points
· Spell Points can be purchased at the cost of 25,000¥ per point.
· Starting gear no higher than Rating 5, or Availability 5.
· Starting Cash is 1D6x100¥ plus leftover Resources/10.

Race
Human 0
Dwarf 7
(+1 Body, +2 Strength,
Reputable Dwarf, Thermographic Vision, Resistance(+2 Body) vs. Disease or Toxins)
Ork 5
(+3 Body, +2 Strength,
Reputable Ork, Illiterate, Low-light Vision)
Elf 8
(+1 Quickness,
Reputable Elf, Low-light Vision)
Troll 12
(+5 Body, -1 Quickness, +4 Strength,
Reputable Troll, Illiterate, Thermographic Vision, +1 Reach, Dermal Armor(+1 Body))

Magic
Full Magicians and Adepts 20
Aspected Magicians 15

Attributes 2 per point up to a max of 6.

Skills 1 per point up to a max of 6.

Resources
250,000¥ 20
100,000¥ 15
50,000¥ 10
10,000¥ 5
3,000¥ 0
500¥ -5

Edges/Flaws
GM’s approval.

New Edges/Flaws

Note: the modifiers below are adjustments to the normal racial modifications found on pg. 56 SR3. Racial Edges and Flaws will not work on members of their own race or to people who already know the character. Also if an NPC is racist against that particular race as the character then the Edge will be replaced by the regular Racist Social Modifier, or added to the already Racial Flaw. All of the Racial Flaws can be paid for with BP at chargen to remove them. Characters can also trade Edges for more BP.

Good Reputation
Value: 1, 2 or 3*
Humans can purchase this Edge for up to 3 points for a total of –3 TN on all Social Tests. See page 27, SRComp.

Reputable Dwarf
Value: 2
When dealing with other metahumans this dwarf seems to get his way more often than not. People always assume that dwarves are stubborn and never back down from an argument. This dwarf keeps this stereotype alive. The character receives a –1 TN modifier when dealing with social situations such as negotiation, and intimidation social tests.

Reputable Elf
Value: 3
When dealing with other metahumans this elf seems to get his way more often than not. People always assume that elves are charming and good looking. This elf keeps this stereotype alive. The character receives a –1 TN modifier when dealing with social situations such as negotiation and etiquette social tests. This deals with elves and non-elves.

Reputable Ork
Value: -4
When dealing with other metahumans this ork seems to have it hard more often than not. People always assume that orks are dumb and ugly. This ork keeps this stereotype alive. The character receives a +2 TN modifier when dealing with social situations such as etiquette and negotiation social tests. However, he receives a –1TN modifier to interrogation, and intimidation social tests, because he looks scary.

Reputable Troll
Value: -6
When dealing with other metahumans this troll seems to have it hard all the time. People always assume that trolls are just too dumb and ugly. This troll breathes life to this stereotype. The character receives a +3 TN modifier when dealing with social situations such as etiquette and negotiation social tests. However, he receives a –2TN modifier to interrogation, and intimidation social tests, because he looks so scary.

Illiterate
Value: -3
Page 23, SRComp.


Thanks in Advance,

Veracusse

Edit: I made some changes according to the suggestions noneuklid made.

What's a magic-path adept cost? (also, why are adepts the same as full mages?)

-4 to all social tests? Frag Avail 5, I'll just use my starting money to buy stock and then get all my gear for half price using Etiquette.

Especially if playing an elf.

Why all the point-value reworking? Why no Wil mod for Dwarves? etc.

Umm, That is because I am using the low-level camnpaign point costs in the back of MrJBB, pg. 118.

I modified the BP slightly to better fit the campaign, plus I am trying to get away from mental attribute racial modifiers.

Veracuss

They look like a fairly well-balanced set of house rules. I agree that the -4 TN version of the Good Reputation Edge might be a bit too much. And can you imagine a character with that Edge who is also a social adept!? I guess it depends on how effective/powerful the effects of social skills are in your campaign.

Ah, don't have the MrJ yet. The edges/flaws are still unbalanced; assuming you mean -2 to negotiation and ettiquite on the Reputable Elf edge, it makes it seem like elves can get -6 to a lot of their social tests without much of a stretch.

Edit:
Suggestion:
reputable elf: -1 TN on negotiation and etiquette, applies to everybody (elves are better at dealing with other elves than non-elves are, and they maintain a consistantly good impression on others). Cost it at 2. Elf point cost 7 or 8 (they're not all that much better than orks).

4 point Good Reputation: -2 TN on social tests and a bonus die. I realize I misread the Edge the first time, since it only applies to humans (was reading 'meta' for some reason)- but it's *still* unbalanced, as those 2 points are superior to the sum of the existing 4 point Edge for elves. I'd also make this revised version applicable to everybody.

Trolls seem overcosted, perhaps 12 would be better.

I tried to come up with something to balance humans with the other races. Since both elves and dwarves get the reputable race edge, I thought that maybe humans can get an edge for them. Note that only humans can only buy the edge up to 4 points.

Veracusse

Thanks I made some modifications according to what you said. I modified the Good Reputation edge for humnas to only 3 points with -3 TN modifier instead of 4. I also chnage the racial BP costs as well. Originally I wanted to keep with multiples of 5 to be easier in adding up BP costs, but I have abandoned that notion. Although I do feel that elves are a little overbalanced now, so I will have to think about this. Plus, dwarves also get it easy with alot of benefits so I increased their BP cost by 2 up to 7 BP.

Do these changes make it more balanced? or does it unbalance things further?

Thanks,

Veracusse

I would disagree strongly that there was a consensus that the Troll Intelligence penalty is "unrealistic".

~J

Me too! I have no problems with the way the races are portrayed (except I would up the cost of orks and dwarves to equal that of the others).

Reputable Ork
Value: -4
When dealing with other metahumans this ork seems to have it hard more often than not. People always assume that orks are dumb and ugly. This ork keeps this stereotype alive. The character receives a +2 TN modifier when dealing with social situations such as etiquette and negotiation social tests. However, he receives a –1TN modifier to interrogation, and intimidation social tests, because he looks scary.

Reputable Troll
Value: -6
When dealing with other metahumans this troll seems to have it hard all the time. People always assume that trolls are just too dumb and ugly. This troll breathes life to this stereotype. The character receives a +3 TN modifier when dealing with social situations such as etiquette and negotiation social tests. However, he receives a –2TN modifier to interrogation, and intimidation social tests, because he looks so scary.

These seem to be over pointed. Bad Reutation is wirth less points than either of these flaws,and has no up side. Also note that the Ork can get both Reputable Ork and two levels of Good Reputation, for a net bonus 2 build points.

thanks for the feedback and comments. This is what I am looking for. If I change the values to:

Reputable Ork
Value: -1

Reputable Troll
Value: -2

I think these might balance better with the elf and dwarf version.

For Orks and Trolls I would have to add that these flaws are incompatible with Good Reputation, and the elves and dwarves edges are incompatible with Bad Reputation.

For a player to want to make a character with either of those edges/flaws they would need to buy off, with BP, Reputable Troll or Ork, or trade the Edges Reputable Elfe or Dwarf in for BP and then they can take the flaw.

My purpose in doing this is to see <i>if there is</i> a viable way to make metahumans equal on a mental basis, but keep the flavor of the bias and prejudices of Shadowrun.

Jamison

Of course there is.

Trolls:
1 BP => 1.8 STR
2 BOD
.8 QUI
1 WIL
.7 INT
.7 CHA

There's probably a way to do this with only whole numbers, but eh.

...why is no one not-okay with Orks and Trolls being automatically illiterate?

Edit: That said, I like the idea a lot. It reminds me of the Qualities in Cinematic Unisystem RPGs (in Buffy, f'rinstance, you could buy "Slayer" or "Vampire" with points, same as anything else, except it was a big bundle of other Edges and Flaws). It works really, really well, and Shadowrun needs every bit of help it can get to feel "consistent" and "smooth."

-Albert

I added in the illiterate flaw to reflect the higher degree of illiteracy among the population of Shadowruun. Most of the population that are illiterate, IMO, are sinless metahumans, particullarly Trols and orks. The player can spend BP to get rid of the flaw at chargen, in fact all of the racial edges/flaws can be bought of with BP at chargen.


Trolls:
1 BP => 1.8 STR
2 BOD
.8 QUI
1 WIL
.7 INT
.7 CHA

noneuklid, I am not sure wht yo mean by this, but I think this is the ratio between Trolls and humans.

Veracusse

Rather than giving races flat-out bonuses, award increased Racial Modified Limits to some races, and charge them less per point of stat- those numbers are build point costs for Trolls. Such a character would have a modified limit of 10 strength, 11 body, 5 quickness, and 6 in mental stats (but as you can see, having a 6 INT or 6 CHA would cost more than 6 build points).

Just mess around with the numbers and charge fractional build point costs per point of stat.

Edit: Alternately, they might have an RML of 4 or 5 Charisma. I don't have a big problem with trolls having a lower Charisma- it's the messiest stat because it's the most subjective anyway. It's mostly the Intelligence thing that bothers me, because it reinforces the racist attitudes that players aren't supposed to take.

The new Shadowrun ... we put the PC in Player Characters.

Coming soon to a store near you.

If it was totally PC, none of the races would have different stats. I mean, technically, they've already given a nod in that direction; most RPGs don't have different stat spreads for males and females, despite the fact that there are acknowledged physiological differences- boys run faster and hit harder, and girls tend to be more innately flexible (they do seperate gender teams for a reason), and there are cognitive differences as well. Unless you always want to give a female character bonus dice on rolls involving observation and communication...