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Dancer
Obviously I am a complete doofus, because I've read the magic chapter through several times and can't grok how the Force of a spell affects many spells. Take Oxygenate as an example. The Duration of the spell is however long you maintain it, the effect is based on your Sorcery successes, and the only effects Force seems to have is to increase the difficulty of the drain resistance roll and make it harder to dispel. Unless you expect to run into a lot of people who spend time dispelling your spells (instead of just frying/shooting you), why would you ever cast this spell at anything but Force 1? Many bonus-providing spells (like Increase Reflexes) seem to be unaffected by Force.

With detection/combat spells, is the sole function of Force to boost the target of the resistance roll?
toturi
QUOTE (Dancer)
With detection/combat spells, is the sole function of Force to boost the target of the resistance roll?

Pretty much so. However, for detection spells, the range of the detection is also dependent on the Force of the spell.
Dancer
On the subject of magic (specifically Hermetic Libraries), pg287 lists memory as costing "20 nuyen.gif /Mp", and Data Display Headsets take 'standard data cartridges' holding 1000Mp. Do 'data cartridges' cost more than a small car, or is there something screwy going on here?
ShortBusFury
Yeah, they're big and expensive. So yes, a big rating library is gonna' be in the 100,000+ range. You're basically taking the entire contents of one of those old lovecraftian libraries and cramming everything onto an itty-bitty chip... I'd say it would be worth it just for the 'Search' function.

COMMAND> FIND NECRONOMICON:SUMMONING/CALLING:"GOAT WITH A THOUSAND YOUNG":YOG-SOTHOTH

Wheee!!! grinbig.gif
Dancer
Modern day, storage for a (very large) text document would cost maybe 10c. I could fit the entire Library of Congress on a stack of DVDs costing less than $50. Unless computer technology has gone way backward in the next sixty years, it should be possible to store a small library (Rating 5) for less than nuyen.gif 50,000.
Austere Emancipator
Something screwy. You could/should probably use the Optical Memory Chip prices instead of Computer Memory prices -- but with an 11th or older printing book, that'd still mean 1000Mp costs 5,000 nuyen.gif . OMC prices have been errata'd since the 12th printing.

The extremely high memory costs are related to the high Concealability, weight and price of cellphones and other electronic gear in that the numbers were decided on way back when and have not been revamped during the RL tech boom. Incidentally, weights and concealability ratings of many electronic items were changed for the 12th printing along with OMC prices.
ShortBusFury
I don't have a book with me, so don't take my word for it, but the increased cost may be due to the type and complexity of knowledge stored. Nobody wants to read through the library of congress so I'd guess that probably goes for around 5 for the whole thing... me, I'd rather buy a soy burger. I'm guessing could have been an attempt by the writers to add some sort of monetary game-balance to the rather inexpensive upkeep on a mage. If it *IS* supposed to be standard optical memory then it's definitely an error or something that wasn't caught by editing and I'd go with Austere's advice and use the Mp x 0.5 errata costs.
Dancer
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 22 2005, 01:54 PM)
Something screwy. You could/should probably use the Optical Memory Chip prices instead of Computer Memory prices -- but with an 11th or older printing book, that'd still mean 1000Mp costs 5,000 nuyen.gif . OMC prices have been errata'd since the 12th printing.

I see no changes to prices in that Errata, nor do I see any entry for 'Optical Memory Chips' on page 287 (Electronics).

Given the cost of libraries, storage (more than the library itself) and Foci, it seems like Mages really need to take their Priority B as Resources. They need it just as bad as the street sammies.

EDIT: Found OMCs lurking in the text on page 295, but still no errata.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (http://srrpg.com/resources/errata_sr3.shtml)
p. 296: Skillsofts and Chips Table [12]
The price for optical memory chips should be Mp x 0.5, and the Concealability of the skillsoft jukebox was changed to 6.
Ancient History
Even if you have the nuyen for foci at the beginning of the game, you don't have the karma to bind 'em. By the same token, low-end libraries are cheap and portable while high-end libraries are not. Most mages make deals to browse through corporate and university Hermetic libraries for a fee.

Personally, I'd put your B priority down for skills, but that's me.
ShortBusFury
The OMC errata Austere is talking about is listed on the link he posted. It says the following:

QUOTE
p. 296: Skillsofts and Chips Table [12]
The price for optical memory chips should be Mp x 0.5, and the Concealability of the skillsoft jukebox was changed to 6.


It's probably not really what you're looking for, but it's at least a really good place to start for a comparison.
Dancer
QUOTE (ShortBusFury @ Jan 22 2005, 02:18 PM)
p. 296: Skillsofts and Chips Table [12]
The price for optical memory chips should be Mp x 0.5, and the Concealability of the skillsoft jukebox was changed to 6.

It's probably not really what you're looking for, but it's at least a really good place to start for a comparison.

Ah, thanks. 1250 nuyen.gif to store a library is eminently payable. Solves that problem.
Dancer
If people don't mind me taking this thread in yet a third direction, what is the point of Manabolt?. Stunbolt is easier to cast and takes people down just as fast (still fall over at Deadly). Plus you can ask them questions later. If you want them dead just put a bullet in their now-unresisting head.
psykotisk_overlegen
Manabolt is better than stunbolt if you need to kill people quickly with magic. Say, if you don't want him/her as a witness. Stunning them and dragging them along has its own set of risks, and stunning them before executing them takes another valuable seconds.
So it's to save time, basically.
hobgoblin
allso, remeber that rl software that the maker belives will be obscure or have a limited customer base often have very high costs (reinforceing that idea). the same is with this. there are about 1% magicaly active people on the planet, how big a part of that is hermatic magicans of some sort or other? and how many of those are going to need a high rating library rather then use the one available at the uni or corp department where they study or work? its all about economics (and game balance)...
ShortBusFury
I normally use stunbolt whenever possible since it's more drain efficient and often keeps you from getting as much heat put on you by corporate security once you've escaped since you left many of their people alive. Be aware that there are awakened critters out there that are immune to stun damage, so a manabolt spell can still be a good investment even for people who primarily use stun spells.
Dancer
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
allso, remeber that rl software that the maker belives will be obscure or have a limited customer base often have very high costs (reinforceing that idea). the same is with this. there are about 1% magicaly active people on the planet, how big a part of that is hermatic magicans of some sort or other? and how many of those are going to need a high rating library rather then use the one available at the uni or corp department where they study or work? its all about economics (and game balance)...

The cost of the data is (rating squared) x 1000 nuyen.gif . The storage capacity required is (rating squared) x 100Mp. Storage should cost the same no matter what the data is that you are storing, to the computer it's just ones and zeroes after all.
FrostyNSO
I could be mistaken, but I swear I remember reading somewhere that:

The force of a spell also affects it in that with some spells, the force also dictates the maximum number of successes.
Glyph
Force affects most spells. There are only a few where the only difference that Force makes is in the difficulty of dispelling it (Increase Reflexes is the most infamous example of the latter).

As far as the Oxygenate spell, personally I think it should be limited by Force in the same way as the Prophylaxis spell is. In fact, it probably is, and they just didn't catch it. But even if you let a Force: 1 Oxygenate spell give you more than 1 die to add to Body tests, you still don't want to be underwater using a Force: 1, low-Drain spell to breathe underwater. In the unlikely even that you do encounter magical opposition, they can really mess you up by dispelling it.
Herald of Verjigorm
Oxygenate works on a maximum number of targets equal to force. Not the most brutal force related restriction, but a potential benefit to higher force knowledge.
toturi
The Force limitation is only limited to certain spells, like Increase Attibute and Increase Reaction. Also please bear in mind that spells affecting inanimate objects needs to exceed half the Object Resistance.

Also having casting high Force spell makes it difficult for you to erase your astral signature.
Dancer
Check my numbers here:

Thomas is a fairly new mage, with Enchanting 6 and a Karma Pool of 1. He rents an Enchanting Shop for a lunar month for 2800 nuyen.gif , and purchases 4 units of refined gold for 80,000 nuyen.gif . He works at alchemy for a 28 day circulation - 6 dice at Target 4, rerolling failures once, averages 4 1/2 successes, for an output of 18 units of Gold Radicals. Said Radicals have a market value of 720,000 nuyen.gif . Disposing of them won't be trivial, but given that he obtained them by entirely legal and above-board means he should be able to get a good fraction of market price in time. Say he gets 2/3rds market price - that works out to a little over 15,000 nuyen.gif pure profit a day. With a little more experience (Enchanting 8, Karma Pool 3) he gets 24,000 nuyen.gif a day.

Why would Thomas ever want to go running?
kevyn668
That's the question isn't it?
Sabosect
QUOTE (Dancer)
Check my numbers here:

Thomas is a fairly new mage, with Enchanting 6 and a Karma Pool of 1. He rents an Enchanting Shop for a lunar month for 2800 nuyen.gif , and purchases 4 units of refined gold for 80,000 nuyen.gif . He works at alchemy for a 28 day circulation - 6 dice at Target 4, rerolling failures once, averages 4 1/2 successes, for an output of 18 units of Gold Radicals. Said Radicals have a market value of 720,000 nuyen.gif . Disposing of them won't be trivial, but given that he obtained them by entirely legal and above-board means he should be able to get a good fraction of market price in time. Say he gets 2/3rds market price - that works out to a little over 15,000 nuyen.gif pure profit a day. With a little more experience (Enchanting 8, Karma Pool 3) he gets 24,000 nuyen.gif a day.

Why would Thomas ever want to go running?

Because magically-powerful groups don't like it when upstarts move in on their turf. Thomas comes home one day, finds a mysterious package, and the following week the city is filling in the crater to build a new apartment building where his shop was.
kevyn668
Ahh...That must be the "Awakened Teamsters 404." They're a rough bunch. nyahnyah.gif

Seriously, what groups do you speak of??
Sabosect
Generally, anything criminal. Could be Mafia, Yakuza, a local gang, a corporation, or even a group of shadowrunners. Considering the problems megacorps sometimes have keeping people alive, I doubt a single guy on his own just starting a shop without connections might have a problem.
kevyn668
The contact "Talismonger" does it all the time.
Sabosect
The contact "Talismonger" is also usually already established and has been for years, plus he's already got a rep to back him, experience as a runner in some cases beneath his belt, and probably also has a sizeable security force or enough magical power or rep to not worry about being screwed over.
John Campbell
And what makes you think that the Talismonger contact isn't paying the local Yakuza protection money so that his shop doesn't accidentally develop a combustion problem some dark night?
Sabosect
There's also that.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Sabosect)
The contact "Talismonger" is also usually already established and has been for years, plus he's already got a rep to back him, experience as a runner in some cases beneath his belt, and probably also has a sizeable security force or enough magical power or rep to not worry about being screwed over.

Does he? Says who?

And by that token, whats to say that Thomas doesn't either? All of that could be covered in the character's backstory.
Sabosect
Tjhe talismonger could also be paying protection money, as was brought up a couple posts up.

If it is covered in his backstory, then maybe he won't find said mysterious package. But I have no access to backstory information to go on for this.
kevyn668
If you have no access to background why would assume Thomas would get firebombed?

There's no reason for him not to use his skills to make more nuyen. I think its been discussed here before.
Sabosect
No access to his background leaves me to fill it in, using a generic background. Under generic background, and from the information you are giving me, he is just starting the shop and probably has a rep, but not a big enough rep to be respected by anyone big.
kevyn668
Or be noticed by anyone big. smile.gif
Dancer
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Or be noticed by anyone big. smile.gif

You show up with a briefcase full of three quarters of a million nuyen worth of magic, you're going to get noticed pretty quickly. Particularly if you do it every month.
kevyn668
If you say so. Its your game.

I guess you have your answer then. Drop Enchanting 6 and take something that won't get you killed.

sarcastic.gif

Edit: And whatever you do, don't open any sort of establishment that makes money.
Dancer
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Jan 23 2005, 04:22 AM)

I guess you have your answer then.  Drop Enchanting 6 and take something that won't get you killed.

Or be a professional criminal who accepts people trying to kill him as a part of normal life, and has lots of serious criminal contacts and friends who are also used to people trying to blow them up, and are thus pretty good at preventing it from happening.

That is, be a Shadowrunner who does Alchemy as a sideline. Running probably earns Karma a lot quicker than sitting around a workshop too, particularly if (since you're not desperate for money) you only accept the runs that interest you or advance causes you believe in.
FrostyNSO
I doubt many runners run to "earn Karma".

If I could enchant and make radicals, I wouldn't even think about shadowrunning, I'm already sitting on a goldmine.

Whatever you do. DO NOT open a chinese food restaurant, or else the bigger, more established chinese food restaurants are going to leave explosives on your front porch unless you stop offering free delivery.
Dancer
QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Jan 23 2005, 05:47 AM)
I doubt many runners run to "earn Karma".

Gain power then. Most mages are power-mad, after all.

The other way to handle it would be to assume that it's a pricing stuffup, like the cost of computer memory we were discussing earlier. If alchemicising gold was so profitable (and it's twice as profitable as any other alchemical operation, even making Orichalcum), then the big corporations would long ago have flooded the market. High profit -> increased supply -> decreased prices -> decreased profit. It's how our economic system allocates manufacturing resources.

QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Jan 23 2005, 05:47 AM)
Whatever you do. DO NOT open a chinese food restaurant, or else the bigger, more established chinese food restaurants are going to leave explosives on your front porch unless you stop offering free delivery.


Given the insane profitability of by-the-book alchemy, it's more similar to selling cocaine on the wrong turf than opening a restaurant.
Fortune
QUOTE (Dancer)
QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Jan 23 2005, 05:47 AM)
I doubt many runners run to "earn Karma".

Gain power then. Most mages are power-mad, after all.

One would think that study and experimentation would more often result in more power, than would commiting crimes.
FrostyNSO
Judging from his reply to my chinese restaurant statement: Dancer *does not* think I'm funny.

DANGIT! mad.gif
John Campbell
IME, you get power by spending nine days hanging from an oak with its roots in the underworld and its branches in the heavens while a talking squirrel tells you the secrets of the universe.

My sorcerer runs because you don't get into Valhalla if you die in bed.
toturi
No, opening a restuarant is much more dangerous. According to DeckerM, they are owned by dragons. I think being in competition to a drug pusher is more healthy than in competition to a dragon.
Dissonance
Eh, I wouldn't go into the gold-resale business for a few reasons. In fact, I wouldn't go into ANY kind of alchemy business,for many small reasons, one medium-big reason, and one VERY big reason.

Lesser reasons:

1) A critical failure during your lunar month will leave you roughly 80,000 y poorer and out of the loop for a good 28 days.
2) Mass-producing gold radicals is likely to attract the attention of other magical types. The magical types that might like to go into your shop and get ph4t l3wt, or force you to refine at gunpoint, or something equally stupid.
3) Who the hell uses radical gold when you can buy radical tin, lead, or any other metal for a FRACTION of the price, and it works JUST as well?
4) The market for magical flecks of gold doesn't seem particularly great. See above point.
5) I can't even begin to imagine the paperwork that goes behind buying 80,000 y of gold, let alone the transport costs and the potential for highjacking.

Medium-Big reason:

1) It's perfectly legal until you realize that your signature is on every piece of radical material you ever make, and now you're going to get lots of funny questions if they find out a shadowy fellow is using a buttload of gold from YOUR shop in his focus that he's been using to melt people.

Big-big Reason:

1) Who the hell wants to be a shopkeeper? You might as well work in a Stuffer Shack wearing a silly hat, while you're at it.
Glyph
A mage PC doesn't talismonger full-time for the same reason a decker PC doesn't do datasteals or program utilities to sell full-time. Because their background gives them a reason to want to run the shadows. I mean, it's no fun to show up to a game and say "My character makes some more alchemical radicals" while the rest of the players do a shadowrun. Although there's nothing wrong with having a profitable side enterprise that lets you be a bit more picky on what jobs you will do.

Runners can have many different motivations beyond the money. Idealism, revenge, the rush of danger, and so on. Because, let's face it, many of them could make more money doing far less dangerous work.
Dancer
QUOTE (Dissonance)
5)  I can't even begin to imagine the paperwork that goes behind buying 80,000 y of gold, let alone the transport costs and the potential for highjacking.


Weights about 4 kilos, fits in a briefcase. I'm a big bad shadowrunner Mage, I can handle my own transport security.

QUOTE
1)  It's perfectly legal until you realize that your signature is on every piece of radical material you ever make, and now you're going to get lots of funny questions if they find out a shadowy fellow is using a buttload of gold from YOUR shop in his focus that he's been using to melt people.


I sold the radicals legitimately to a legal and above-board talismonger. Who he onsells them to is not my responsibility. The mass publishing of my astral signature is though - I didn't realise it had my print.

QUOTE
3)  Who the hell uses radical gold when you can buy radical tin, lead, or any other metal for a FRACTION of the price, and it works JUST as well?
4)  The market for magical flecks of gold doesn't seem particularly great.  See above point.


Both excellent points. It raises the question 'why are gold radicals worth 40,000 nuyen.gif ?', but perhaps they are a very specialist commodity used by few people (hence the high price) and someone turning out 2 kilos a month could rapidly flood the market.

QUOTE
1)  Who the hell wants to be a shopkeeper?  You might as well work in a Stuffer Shack wearing a silly hat, while you're at it.


If they're paying me 1000 nuyen.gif an hour, they can pass the silly hat. If I radicalise gold for one month a year, I can afford a High lifestyle and do what I like the other 11 months. Which may well be Running, but without the (shared) profit motive it's much harder to motivate characters to work together and accept the contracts offered them. Although I suppose I could hire the other runners... cool.gif

QUOTE (Toturi)
No, opening a restuarant is much more dangerous. According to DeckerM, they are owned by dragons. I think being in competition to a drug pusher is more healthy than in competition to a dragon.


I have to concede the point.
Voran
QUOTE (ShortBusFury @ Jan 22 2005, 08:47 AM)
Yeah, they're big and expensive.  So yes, a big rating library is gonna' be in the 100,000+ range.  You're basically taking the entire contents of one of those old lovecraftian libraries and cramming everything onto an itty-bitty chip...  I'd say it would be worth it just for the 'Search' function.

COMMAND> FIND NECRONOMICON:SUMMONING/CALLING:"GOAT WITH A THOUSAND YOUNG":YOG-SOTHOTH

Wheee!!!  grinbig.gif

Man that particular blue is evil smile.gif I like it.

In regards to the talismonger thing tho. I don't own/run my own business, but from what I gather from people that I know and talk to, its a horrible pain in the ass that requires effort and dedication. A lot of minute little tasks to keep ahead of. As such I imagine the life of a runner is rather conflicting with a job. It may work better if the talismonger PC is actually like a part time talismonger working FOR a fulltime npc talismonger. They help out the little old lady street shaman in their spare time, and run a few personal projects out of her establishment, but then they don't have to be accountable for steady daily/regular business, overhead, bookkeeping, customer relations, whatever.
Dissonance
I've kind of forgotten the whole point of the discussion, now. I just know that my brain has been dipped in batter and deep-fried after slogging through Cryptonomicon in record time, so my brain is sort of failing to work right now.

But, yeah. Mass-producing stuff is bad.

Books are expensive for the same reason software is expensive. It's specialty stuff, and you really shouldn't have a rating 6 magic library unless you're some kind of special dude who has permits and stuff.

Don't summon things with tentacles unless you have a Japanese schoolgirl on hand and a bunch of film in your camera.

DO sell tapes of this. You'll make more money than if you were selling gold.

I'd be more coherent, but enh.
Dancer
QUOTE (ShortBusFury)
Yeah, they're big and expensive. So yes, a big rating library is gonna' be in the 100,000+ range. You're basically taking the entire contents of one of those old lovecraftian libraries and cramming everything onto an itty-bitty chip... I'd say it would be worth it just for the 'Search' function.

COMMAND> FIND NECRONOMICON:SUMMONING/CALLING:"GOAT WITH A THOUSAND YOUNG":YOG-SOTHOTH

Wheee!!! grinbig.gif

I am currently imagining the fun that could result from a vindictive Decker and some subtle changes in conjuration formulae.
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