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waftalia
hey everyone i would love some ideas on banks ,

i have a decker in my game that wants to make money in every capacity but actually running the shadows....he wants to rob banks for starters any advice on what a banks security is like in your games and how would one funnel the money out ect.....have any of you went up against this ?

second he wants to organleg escorts on the side ,ive had pimps catch up with him but there no match for his level of experience and he cycles through where he does it often to not hit the same streets very often? how much do you get for organ legging in your games?who buys it?and wouldnt it eventually work its way up to the local gangs ,mafia,yaks ect....who control it?

3rd he loves to steal motorcycles and then sell them to his fence,i cant imagine a bike store having enough security to stop a 7 man shadowrunning team with about 80 karma each .any suggestions ,coments?

i have hinted to him that all these extra curricular activities draw attention to him and mark him more as a wanta be then a professional ,but i really dont buy that arguement myself.but i dont want to on every downtime roleplay out all of these scenes.
Quix
I'm not going to be much help on the banks. I usually make them hard enough to crack that my players only tried it when they got their hands on some high roller's cred stick.

As for the organ legging, they may be SINless hookers but cops need love too. Send the Star after him. After all he is doing a wonderful job at giving away his kind of target. (Are these kind of criminals called psychopaths? I can't remember.) The Star should have enough rescources that even changing his hunting grounds everyonce in a while won't help. If he doesn't repeat an area after he's done harvesting there, then he's just eliminated an area that they have to stake out, or does he have just a couple of neighborhoods that he does his hunting in? As for the mafia, yaks, ect... who do you think controls the hookers. He's a pain in their bottom line. Never a smart place to stand IMO.

How many motorcycles are we talking about? Can he flood his fixer with bikes? Drop the bottom out of his own market? Since the fixer hasto be careful where he sells the stolen bike. How would you like to sell an angry biker his own bike that was just stolen.

Is he sloppy enought hat the Star could realize that the hooker slaughterer is also the one who they are also checking out for grand theft...cycle? This could start giving the player some heat in his life. Perhaps more then his friends want to have near them.
Kanada Ten
Other than telling him straight out that you don't want to play that game and so on, you have to simply fight fire with fire.

"What's that, my fence has been organlegged?"

The vehicle could be a set-up, a trap by Tamanous (the organlegger organization), and have an explosive device rigged to it (remote detonation). I'd let him survive that though, but then have to fight forty ghouls and a wendigo shaman to discover his chopped up fence in the Tamanous van.

[edit] Additionally, teams with Deckers, Mages, and Riggers should be high pay, high risk since all three can make obscene money from paydata, enchanting, and theft.
ef31415
Banks? What's a bank? I can't imagine a bank having much more than ATMs plus a matrix location -- with the nastiest ice billions of nuyen can buy.

For the hooker -- the pimps and other hookers are going to have a real vested interest in tracking these people down, and then sending the hardest sam team they can buy after them. Imagine what kind of bounty hookers could give and who would go after it.

And as far as stealing bikes goes -- you're kidding me, right? They are get what, 3,000Y a piece? That's a lot of bikes. For 7 runners, @5,000Y an month basic living = 35KY a month = 12 bikes a month.

That's not a bad life, actually, as long as you never plan on getting upgrades or toys. Start stealing more, and people start noticing.

You could force the shadows down their throat if you want. Say they steal the bike of a yakuza courier,.... or the bank account they drain is a mafia don, ... or the hooker is a Lone Star stakeout .... all three at once would have them pining for the shadows.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
QUOTE (ef31415 @ Jan 24 2005, 10:18 PM)
Imagine what kind of bounty hookers could give and who would go after it.

For reference, may I direct you to a certain well-known episode of Firefly....

Jayne: "Don't see much point getting involved in other people's trouble's without an up front price negotiation."

Zoe: "No one's gonna force you to go, Jayne. As has been stated -- this job's strictly speculative."

Jayne: "Good. 'Cause I don't know these folks, don't much care to."

Mal: "They're whores."

Jayne: "I'm in."

grinbig.gif -Heart of Gold


As with all things, it's even better when you see it.
Nikoli
Better yet, one of his harvests could turn out to be a LoneStar Vice cop. That'd put the fear of Dunk in him, starts haversting and a badge falls on the floor next to the body, with a little blinky light...
waftalia
thanks guys all good ideas ,ill plan on using all of them very very very soon.
Sabosect
Even better: A Lone Star cop on the payroll of the Yakuza and a spy for SK.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Better yet, one of his harvests could turn out to be a LoneStar Vice cop. That'd put the fear of Dunk in him, starts haversting and a badge falls on the floor next to the body, with a little blinky light...

..With a signal tracker, mic, and biomonitor in it... transmitting back to her backup. With her mandatory headware radio for lone Star, it's over right there.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Even better: A Lone Star cop on the payroll of the Yakuza and a spy for SK.

Wow. I tried to think of something to add to that, but everything I think of just sounds silly.

A winner is you!


::bows::
RedmondLarry
IMO, you tell the player he is wasting YOUR time. You're there to be the GM for Shadowrun adventures, not to give him a paper-and-pencil version of Grand-Theft Auto or Grand-Theft Bank. You can tell him his character found enough ways to make money that he no longer goes on Shadowruns, and then have him make a new character to play in your Shadowruns.

Or you can tell him you've compressed all the rules for stealing a motorbike down to a single D6 roll. On a 2-6 he makes 3000 nuyen. On a 1 he dies.

Either way, make him stop wasting your time. That's not what you're there for. You do not need to spend one more minute trying to modify your game world to provide him with a challenge.

I had a player once who was bored with not being the center of attention (we were doing legwork at the time and his character had no social skills). He said he was going into a bar and was going to pick a fight. I rolled 3D6, examined them, and said "you beat up everyone you wanted to and had a great time". I did not let him grab the center of attention, and distract the whole table from the adventure, for more than 40 seconds. He knew the dice roll could have resulted in his character facing something that could kill him (that I would have played out).
Fix-it
Organlegging and bank robbery???

Why the hell hasn't he pissed off the Yaks or the Mafia yet??????

They basically control both markets in Seattle.
Crusher Bob
Here's a novel (ang much better) idea:

Make shadowruns pay more than stealing bike and organlegging prostitues.

I would assume that this character is doing these things for the money, as stealing bikes is estentially risk free (the organ legging risks can be minimized as well). When he can knock over a bike shop (at no risk) for say 8K (10 bikes sold at 4K a piece, split 5 ways), then why should he go on a much more dangerous Shadowrun for 10K? Face it, the 'default' prices for runs are... not too bright. Shadowruns are usually quite risky and involve capital crimes, stealing bike is just grand theft auto and worth something like 3-5 years.

Playing up the difficulty of non running ways of making money just feels stupid.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Additionally, teams with Deckers, Mages, and Riggers should be high pay, high risk since all three can make obscene money from paydata, enchanting, and theft.


Two hours later...

QUOTE
Here's a novel (ang much better) idea:
Make shadowruns pay more than stealing bike and organlegging prostitues.

:thumbs up:
Arethusa
Fix-It has it right. Organlegging prostitutes is not going to just get pimps after you. When you kill a pimp, you make a lot of very powerful enemies. When you live in the shadows, you are biting the hand that feeds you. Whether you're a psychopath or a McManus brother, you can expect a waró and as it is war, it will involve far more fire and manpower than a single runner can take head on. And as your player sounds far too stupid to think his way around it, I'm sure he'll learn his lesson soon enough to roll a new character.
BitBasher
Hmm, I'm still gonna have to bet on the Mcmanus brothers... Those guys have to have some serious Harma Pool. smile.gif
FrostyNSO
Crusher Bob has the right ticket.

I would make the quick rolls to see if he makes money that month, and then tell him that it uses up most of his time that month.

Then I'd take the rest of the team on an actual shadowrun that pays on average 15-20 grand more than he made, while he sits and plays with himself.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Jan 24 2005, 10:50 PM)
Even better: A Lone Star cop on the payroll of the Yakuza and a spy for SK.

-who also happens to be Lofwyr's dikoted ally spirit. twirl.gif

1: There don't really seem to be that many banks (aside from that really important one up in the sky) in the sixth world, and depending on your game, there might not even be any physical currency in circulation. Banks of some sort, where all those nuyen records and transactions occur and are stored, but what's he going to do, pull his gun, pull his credstick and demand that a teller, "fill 'er up?" From the decking side, well, bank security is going to be rock solid, and he would be the kind of hacker that would be trying their hardest to keep out.

2: This isn't Grand Theft Auto (unless that's how you're running the game, in which case... sleepy.gif ) Hookers are not randomly generated on the sidewalks. Having both hookers and pimps disapearing is going to catch attention of higher ups quickly. Especially if someone at the organleggers recognizes the victim he's about to harvest as another member of the syndicate.

If you want to be really heavy handed about it, a car screeches to a stop in front of him, and a bevy of gamma scopalimine/DMSO supersquirts hose him down. When he wakes up, he's tied to a chair, and sucking on a shotgun held by the syndicate member of your choise. He will work for them to make up for the losses he's caused (since this sounds like a reasonbly powerful and skilled character) or...
FrostyNSO
or....the car doesn't screech to a stop in front of him, but rather plows straight through him. The pimp gets out, steals his wristwatch, then takes his deck to make up for his "ho losses".
hahnsoo
Even if it is just "SINless hookers", I'd imagine that eventually the media will start penning a story on the "Jack the Ripper copycat killer" that has been plaguing the streets, using that as ammunition to criticize (insert corp security force here), which will prompt the Star/KE/Private Sec Force to get involved. Then your character will quickly find him/herself Hung Out To Dry. Every action has an opposite and equal reaction...
FrostyNSO
Hung Out To Dry is the "final insult" when it comes to problem players.

Not to be confused with the "final solution", which is the speeding pink El Dorado mentioned above.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Jan 25 2005, 02:37 AM)
Even if it is just "SINless hookers", I'd imagine that eventually the media will start penning a story on the "Jack the Ripper copycat killer" that has been plaguing the streets, using that as ammunition to criticize (insert corp security force here), which will prompt the Star/KE/Private Sec Force to get involved.  Then your character will quickly find him/herself Hung Out To Dry.  Every action has an opposite and equal reaction...

Except since he's organlegging them, they pretty much disappear. However, just because they're SINless, doesn't mean nobody is going to miss them when they're gone. And I'm not talking about just loser boyfriends here. The hookers are probably by pimps and the pimps probably pay off one of the crime syndicates, so when bad things start happening low on the food chain, someone at some level is going to notice. I'm not saying one day, BOOM hit squads, but they'll figure things out eventually.

And something I just realized... if the decker doesn't want to run the Shadows, WTF is he doing playing Shadowrun?
Crusher Bob
There's a difference between playnig Shadowrun and going on runs. You can play shadowrun, and hove your characters be a bunch of ordinary joes who get together for poker every Friday, and the game is mostly about their everyday lives...

The main 'concern' should be: 'is going on actual shadowruns a sane course of action?'

As has been mentioned before, a good runner team can make a fine living from stealing cars, or whatever. So as a (erm, what's the term...) rational economic entity, why should you go on runs as compared to stealing cars? The margical risk/reward index of a run has to to higer than the risk/reward index of stealing cars, making wards, or whatever.

This means that:
1
The 'background' economics of the game and the consequences should be in line...

1.1
For someone of a runner's skill, they should be able to do 'regular' criminal activites with almost no real risk (this heavy handed, orbital cow, GM stuff is bullcrap). Throwing out the completely broken stuff like refining alchemical gold, a 'starting character' can turn at least 8K a month quite safely, doing some on the above mentioned activites. Working as a team, a group of 'runners' can easily up this amount.

1.2
Assuming the 'risk' of these activites it .9 and the reward is 8K/month this makes the margial utility of car stealing around 7,200Y a month.

1.3
Assuming the following about runs:
1 Run every Month
'risk' of .7
average pay of 15K
the marginal utility of a run is around 10.5K a month...
(the break even value of runs vs car stealing is around 10.5K per run)

1.4
Short version, offer alot more than the 'book price' per run or more, or rational runners won't even look up from their car stealing operations to meet the Johnson.

1.5
This is why every game that has a large emphasis on money should at least be given a once over by an economics major...
algcs
Not much of a chance robbing of well known bank in my game. Security is tight. Online security is tighter. If people don't think their money is going to be safe at a bank they won't keep it there. Unless you have someone on the inside. Then it gets a lot easier.

Organ legging: Make sure he keeps a good cooler or a porto fridge handy. And he has biotech so things don't get damaged. Sell the leftovers to the ghouls. Just don't get caught. His choice of targets isn't that great. Sure they are easy but more than likely they are going to be low quality. Have his contact call him up asking for a liver & arm of a magically active troll. The doctor needs it in 3 hours.

Bikes. Easy to steal easy to fence. Your local mob, yak, or gang only wants 15% for your safety. Every so often have the Star try to crack down on auto theifs.

Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Quix)
As for the organ legging, they may be SINless hookers but cops need love too. Send the Star after him. After all he is doing a wonderful job at giving away his kind of target. (Are these kind of criminals called psychopaths? I can't remember.)

Sociopaths.
toturi
Crusher, you have to factor in loot and gains not in the form of direct payment. Book prices are, by the book, on the low end. I think you are also overestimating the amount of money that can be made simply by doing the safe things, simply because of the SR economics. No "loot" may be sold above 50% of its initial value. If we apply that to "safe" jobs, it may well be that the safe job is paying 5000 nuyen.gif a month.
Crusher Bob
An americar lists for 20K, assuming you are stealing a slightly older model, listing at 16-15K, and selling at 33%, that's 5K. Steal 2 cars a month...
mfb
yeah, and then the fence you sell them to gets busted on drug charges, and turns you in for a reduction in sentence. granted, this can happen even to regular shadowrunners--but the likelihood of it happening to your shadowrunner shoots through the roof if you annoy your GM with your "i don't want to go on runs" antics.
Crusher Bob
The whole point of the ecoonomic breakdown is to show that not wanting to go on runs at all and not wanting to go on runs that don't pay anymore than stealing cars are two different matteres all together. So, if the GM offers the characters a run that is much more 'economically rational' than stealing cars, and they turn it down, this might be a problem... But the GM should have some idea about how to make that run look like the 'rational' choice.
mfb
economics isn't the only consideration, though. runners get a certain amount of anonymity because of the way they're hired--generally, through blind third parties. car thieves don't get the same protection; they deal directly with the guys who, for all intents and purposes, are hiring them. those guys that 'hire' them do so regularly; there's a strong connection between the guys doing the hiring and the guys doing the stealing. therefore, if the guys doing the hiring get caught by the law, or leaned on by someone, the guys doing the stealing are also going to get caught or leaned on. if someone catches or leans on a johnson that's hired a runner at some point in the past, those runners probably aren't going to get caught or leaned on.
algcs
QUOTE (mfb)
if someone catches or leans on a johnson that's hired a runner at some point in the past, those runners probably aren't going to get caught or leaned on.

Why not? Seriously Mr Johnson will have some info on the runners. Why wouldn't he roll on them? He has no ties to them so he might as well rat them out.

And enough Mr Johnson's pull stupid stuns like trying to off the runners after he gets to goods or "forgetting" to tell the runners about certain complications that it is healthier to live a life of crime.

mfb
one, because the runners aren't directly connected to him. they're freelancers; stuff that affects him doesn't affect them. a car thief, on the other hand, is part of a cohesive operation. two, because he doesn't have any contact info for the runners--all he has, at best, is the number of the fixer that introduced him to the runners.
algcs
QUOTE (mfb)
one, because the runners aren't directly connected to him. they're freelancers; stuff that affects him doesn't affect them. a car thief, on the other hand, is part of a cohesive operation. two, because he doesn't have any contact info for the runners--all he has, at best, is the number of the fixer that introduced him to the runners.

Some car thiefs are and some aren't. If your ripping off a few cars a month and selling them to gangers, crooked used car dealers, runners needing a getaway car, or a variaty of chop shops then your not really an organization.

If you have a fence calling you and placing orders for specific cars then you probably are.

Even if you are the Star is going to care more about busting the guys above your boss than you. Picking up a street runner that boosts cars won't make the news. Arresting the mafia boss that owned the chop shop will.

Mr Johnson knows someone that knows you. That is all it takes.
mfb
in that case, you're in even more trouble, since you're cutting into other people's business. the guys who run the chop shops don't appreciate competition.

mr. johnson knowing someone that knows you is a whole lot better than mr. johnson hiring you directly, having your number and address, knowing what bars you hang out at, and knowing your wife and kids.

i'm not saying you can never ever steal a car for fear of being caught or rubbed out, but there are viable reasons why stealing cars is a dangerous business to get into. if a player decides to play pen-and-paper GTA, and it's interfering with the rest of the game, the GM can use these viable limits to put a scare into the player, and push them away from stealing cars and towards doing shadowruns.
Necro Tech
We have any policemen on this board anymore? From the cops, sheriff deputies and marshalls I know, the biggest thing you lose by pulling ordinary crimes in anonymity. All the local cops know who all the gangers, car thieves and dope pedlars are. Every damn one of them. They can't prove they are guilty which is why they aren't in jail. Small time criminals fly below the radar but you steal several cars each month and the first time a fence gets leaned on for info, you're made. Look at orginaized crime. The Feds have photos and backgrounds of all but the lowest soldiers in the families. The cops are far from stupid, they know you did it but they can't make it stick. Apply that to people running around with hordes of illegal hardware/cyberware/etc. and you might as well just call the Star and let them know where you are so they can pick you up on petty possesion charges once a week.

This is Shadowrun. Show your players the cover every once in a while to remind them. They want to start a car theft ring, rules for alternate campaigns can be found in the Companion.
Rev
If stealing and selling cars is more profitable than shadowruns given the relative risks the fence has more resources to resist and less incentive to turn in his associates than the johnson/fixer.

It is ok if shadowrunning is more risky, but it should also be much more lucrative.
waftalia
i started this line,it isnt the money exactlywhy he wants to doall this ,the runs they go on pay well its just side work he wants to do that drains the offtime.
mfb
wait... didn't you say he's a decker? where in the world is he getting all this downtime from? does he purchase all his progs and hardware, instead of building/programming some of it himself?
Snow_Fox
The trouble with robbing a bank is that they don't use much cash in 2063. he gets credit stick but that's like stealing a credit card today- easily tracked and difficult to shake. since they are not the only people in the world with cyber and guns, bang security is probably massive, like bullet proof barriers between tellers and the public and maybe even the place shuts down and fills with stun gas if the alarm is sprung- let Lone star sort out the crooks from the patrons.

Web security would be massive, probably with individual branches being very isolated form the main offices, also the banks are probalby owned by AA and AAA level corps. Sure get away with robbing the 5th 3rd bank and discover it's held by Mitsuhama, you get to play with the Yaks who are going to be looking to make an example of them.
PBTHHHHT
There's another problem even if you managed to get cash from the bank. Not all the money may be in the form of a paper nuyen (is there one?), don't forget that there's also corporate script (cash), UCAS dollars, CAS dollars, etc... (yes, I know Seattle is UCAS territory, but they might use other denominations in the area since they're so close to other territorialities) around too.

Plus, the money may be easier to track if the heist happens in Seattle, limited land and restricted access out. Look at the situation of Northern Ireland recently, a major bank heist, the crooks got away with millions of northern ireland pounds. Only problem is that it's all newly printed cash from the bank (yes, the bank prints their own money) and it's so recognizable that it'll be hard to use that money. You can apply a similar situation in your game. Is nuyen printed by several corporations that are in agreement? Even the UCAS dollar might not be printed by government in 2065, maybe instead they contracted it off to several banks. If it is, some might have their own distinct style but all are worth the same.

I'm also using from what I noticed in Hong Kong, the different banks printed the money, the bills had on it which bank printed it.
FrostyNSO
waftalia -
- What does he want all this money for?

Is he saving up for something? Have a fixer set up a special arrangement with him. "I wanna contract you guys for a couple runs over the next few months. You gotta keep a low profile, but if you do, I can get my hands on that <insert toy/SIN/houseboat here> you've been looking for..."

Is he just rying to kill time? Make the offtime the campaign. An alternate campaign centered around his organlegging or car theft ring. Introduce powerful enemies that want him off their turf (everywhere is someones turf biggrin.gif ). He has to do his own runs to one-up the competition because nobody will deal with him (the people he's pissed off are too hot for small fry).

Do something. I'd just hang him out to dry because he's clearly hot, and hot characters leave a wake of trouble behind them a mile wide.
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Do something. I'd just hang him out to dry because he's clearly hot, and hot characters leave a wake of trouble behind them a mile wide.

Heck, make your players watch the movie, Heat. If the character is that psycho and starts causing trouble to the group, especially on runs. Well, maybe (if they can separate personal relations from character relations) the other group characters will off the psycho character. Heck, if a bounty is placed on him...
Nikoli
Another option:
He just made the last "drop" of the week for his organ legging, when a special order just came in tot he people he's selling too. Seems they need a kidney, a spleen and a right lung right fragging now and they don't have any on hand. So they start looking at his character, sure he's been supplying them pretty wel, but, there's a 30k bonus if they can immediately fill the order...

For the car theft ring:
He just stole a car, when he hears a thumping coming from the back. Not wanting to get nailed in a "random stop" because of a flat tire, he goes to the back and doesn't see anything, then he hears a knocking from the trunk. Seems he just stole a "clean car" from some criminal types who were taking someone for a short trip to the junk yard and they want the car and it's cargo back, with maybe another 80 kilos in the trunk.

Bank robbery:
I seriously doubt several things in an old fashioned bank robbery in the 2060's. Because of the proliferation of affordable, highly effective weapon scanners that can be added to the door frame. Once a weapon is scanned, they ping your credstick for the proper permits, getting no response the vestibule (that little space from the outside door to the inside door) gets locked down and gassed. You don't even get inside the physical bank. Go to jail, go directly to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 nuyen.
Robbing it from the virtual world would be even tougher, as the blackest IC and the sharpest tracers starting gunning for you faster than you can say dumpshock, never mind the 2 black Humvee type vehicles that just pulled into the driveway for your doss as several alpha-male-on-a-bad-day types in Urban Camo BDU's pour out with MP-5's and other nasty surprises to have a chat with you.

That being said, if it's just a time filler, with no benefit to the player, I say let him have his fluff fun, but give him no benefit, no risk and possibly the dark secret or hunted flaw with no compensation if he gets too stupid.
Xirces
QUOTE (Nikoli)
For the car theft ring:
He just stole a car, when he hears a thumping coming from the back. Not wanting to get nailed in a "random stop" because of a flat tire, he goes to the back and doesn't see anything, then he hears a knocking from the trunk. Seems he just stole a "clean car" from some criminal types who were taking someone for a short trip to the junk yard and they want the car and it's cargo back, with maybe another 80 kilos in the trunk.

I like this one. Basically give him more than he expected - there's been a couple of good examples on TV over the past few weeks.

It might not be a body in the back - could be something that *somebody* really wants back (drugs, BTLs, a family heirloom) that makes it easier to trace the thief.

If someone is indiscriminately stealing cars they might not know who the owner is...

How about a honeypot? If not by LS then organised crime gang annoyed about someone else on their turf?

I think that the best way of dealing with it is to make the random acts of theft lead into a run - there are probably loads of hooks that can be made from something simple like this...
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