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Sabosect
One thing I have been wondering about is unusual cyberwear malfunctions GMs come up with.

One of my favorite is this past weekend. The group got together and, unusually, I was trying out a decker. Among us was Nirvana (female elf street sam with the vindictive flaw), Nerble (male human mage with a custom flaw that meant every once in awhile he'd grope the nearest woman; name comes from the sound he made when Nirvana broke his jaw last), Timmy (troll street same with a strange flaw of failing dexterity rolls near wells), and Ooga Booga (dwarf rigger, long story behind name).

We were inside a corp building and Nerble had just gotten a little too grabby again, so Nirvana was in the process of beating him unconcious. This, naturally, made enough noise to attract the guards, who had a nasty habbit of carrying tazers, which allowed them to torture the prisoners before parting them out to street docs and body farms. Two guards come in, hit Timmy before he can react, and much to everyone's surprise manage to (combined) throw him into Deadly range. Then Nirvana, without breaking stride, shoots both guards in the forehead with her Pred 3 and goes back to beating Nerble.

After managing to convince her to let Nerble stay concious enough to heal Timmy, and Nerble to crawl over (in spite of the four bruised ribs) and heal Timmy, Timmy gets the joy of not being numbered amoung the dead, and Nerble passes out with four boxes of physical and a full stun bar. Nirvana is naturally unhappy that she doesn't get to finish the beating, but does nothing to my character for it.

Timmy wakes up, sees his gun on the floor, and the following happens.

Timmy: I try to grab my gun.
GM: Cyberwear malfunction. You slap your face instead.
Timmy: Ouch! I try to grab my gun again.
GM: Same thing happens.
Timmy: Drek! I know! I try to slap my face!
GM: You succeed.
Timmy: Frag it!
BitBasher
That is your GM screwing you. There is nothing canon to support that.
RedmondLarry
I had some bad Wired Reflexes 3 one time. Every time the 3 dice, contributed by the cyberware toward my initiative, rolled 15 or higher my character would fall to the ground convulsing for a Turn. The following Turn he'd lay still. On the third turn he could roll initiative as usual. This bad cyberware was simply the result of things that had happened in-game.
hahnsoo
But boy is it fun! Reminds me of that far side cartoon with the brain surgeons.
FrostyNSO
It sounds to me like the GM getting back at the players who wasted his time fighting amongst eachother.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Sabosect)
... Nerble crawl over (in spite of the four bruised ribs) and heal Timmy, Timmy gets the joy of not being numbered amoung the dead, and Nerble passes out with four boxes of physical and a full stun bar.

Did Nerble pass out from the Heal/Treat spell? If so, how did he sustain the spell long enough for it to become permanent on Timmy? (See "Permanent Spell Base Time" table on page 178 in SR3.)
BitBasher
QUOTE (OurTeam)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Jan 24 2005, 10:57 PM)
... Nerble crawl over (in spite of the four bruised ribs) and heal Timmy, Timmy gets the joy of not being numbered amoung the dead, and Nerble passes out with four boxes of physical and a full stun bar.

Did Nerble pass out from the Heal/Treat spell? If so, how did he sustain the spell long enough for it to become permanent on Timmy? (See "Permanent Spell Base Time" table on page 178 in SR3.)

Correctamundo. The treat fails because it wasnt sustained the duration.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Then Nirvana, without breaking stride, shoots both guards in the forehead with her Pred 3 and goes back to beating Nerble.

Since calling a shot is a free action, and you only get one of those per Combat Phase, you can't shoot two guards in the forehad on one initiative phase. (Unless, of course, you're an Adept that has the power to do two Free Actions in a phase.)
Demosthenes
Unless, of course, the GM was playing to the abstract nature of the SR game system and simply said "Whoa, staged up to deadly? That's a headshot sure enough...".
YMMV cyber.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE (Demosthenes)
Unless, of course, the GM was playing to the abstract nature of the SR game system and simply said "Whoa, staged up to deadly? That's a headshot sure enough...".
YMMV cyber.gif

Except that a deadly doesn't actually kill anything outright, they still have to pass overflow, and can be saved by an EMT or medic without too much trouble. A headshot doesn't really meet those requirements. biggrin.gif
Jrayjoker
Sure it does, you just get a really gool scar to talk about at all the high society parties.
Demosthenes
That kind of depends on how big the hole in the head is, neh?
People can be shot in the head without being shot dead. (That doesn't mean it happens often, but still...)

Indeed, technically, a headshot "called shot" will not necessarily do deadly damage. So a "called shot to the head" (to stage damage up a level) doesn't necessarily meet those requirements either (by your definition).

That, however, is a whole different can of worms... dead.gif
Voran
Sometimes, getting shot in the head results in a face lift, and a talking car.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Voran)
Sometimes, getting shot in the head results in a face lift, and a talking car.

Announcer: We now return to "Knightboat: the Crime-Solving Boat".
Michael: Faster, Knightboat! We gotta catch those starfish poachers.
Knightboat: You don't have to yell, Michael, I'm all around you.
Michael: Oh, no! They're headed for land.
Michael: We'll never catch them now.
Knightboat: Incorrect: look! A canal.
Homer: Go, Knightboat, go!
Bart: Oh, every week there's a canal.
Lisa: Or an inlet.
Bart: Or a fjord.
Homer: Quiet! I will not hear another word against the boat.
- And Maggie Makes Three, [2F10]
Ancient History
Nothing has yet exceeded the Nephritic Screen's shadowtalk in Shadowtech for the ultimate in cyberware embarassment.
Sabosect
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Did Nerble pass out from the Heal/Treat spell? If so, how did he sustain the spell long enough for it to become permanent on Timmy? (See "Permanent Spell Base Time" table on page 178 in SR3.)


GM decided to be kind and allow Nerble to stay awake long enough to complete it. Otherwise, Timmy would be quite dead right now. Very lethal run.

QUOTE (OurTeam)
Since calling a shot is a free action, and you only get one of those per Combat Phase, you can't shoot two guards in the forehad on one initiative phase. (Unless, of course, you're an Adept that has the power to do two Free Actions in a phase.)


GM ruling, not player action. Whether or not they survived depends on how big a deal the GM wants to make out of their medical bills.

QUOTE (BitBasher)
Except that a deadly doesn't actually kill anything outright, they still have to pass overflow, and can be saved by an EMT or medic without too much trouble. A headshot doesn't really meet those requirements. biggrin.gif


Except the human brain can actually recieve an amazing amount of damage and continue to operate enough to keep the person alive. Even today, we have cases of people that have lost up to half of their brain and are still alive, though admittedly they are not the same afterwards.
Method
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Even today, we have cases of people that have lost up to half of their brain and are still alive....

I assume you mean by surgery?

Theres a big difference between having a large section of your brain removed surgically and having half your brain puréed by the concusive force of a .45 round passing through your cranial cavity.... eek.gif
The Grifter
QUOTE
Theres a big difference between having a large section of your brain removed surgically and having half your brain puréed by the concusive force of a .45 round passing through your cranial cavity...


Truer words were never spoken.

And while we're on the subject of faulty cyberware, I'd love to see a character with one of those oral whips get a malfunction. Preferabaly on a motorcycle. Preferable at a speed in excess of 100mph.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Method)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Jan 31 2005, 05:35 PM)
Even today, we have cases of people that have lost up to half of their brain and are still alive....

I assume you mean by surgery?

Theres a big difference between having a large section of your brain removed surgically and having half your brain puréed by the concusive force of a .45 round passing through your cranial cavity.... eek.gif

Not as bad as a .22 round... the .45 has a chance of just passing through, and you're more likely to die from the edema and hemorrhage than from the actual bullet (i.e. surgery can repair the blood vessels and you'd probably recover, with brain damage corresponding to the location of the shot). The .22 round bounces around in there and causes far more damage to the nervous tissue and blood vessels. Of course, the .22 round is more likely to deflect off of the skull on a glancing shot, whereas the .45 round would not...
Lindt
Impromptu dental surgery?
Foreigner
I can't recall where I read it, but something similar happened IRL.

A plainclothes police officer, armed with the department-standard .38 Special snubnose (i.e., it had a 2" barrel) revolver, fires at a perp at such close range that he can clearly see the muzzle flashes of his weapon reflecting off of the surface of the other guy's eyeballs, and hits him at least once.

The criminal not only survived, but was sitting up and talking by the time the EMTs arrived to treat his wound(s). eek.gif

--Foreigner
BitBasher
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Method @ Jan 31 2005, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Jan 31 2005, 05:35 PM)
Even today, we have cases of people that have lost up to half of their brain and are still alive....

I assume you mean by surgery?

Theres a big difference between having a large section of your brain removed surgically and having half your brain puréed by the concusive force of a .45 round passing through your cranial cavity.... eek.gif

Not as bad as a .22 round... the .45 has a chance of just passing through, and you're more likely to die from the edema and hemorrhage than from the actual bullet (i.e. surgery can repair the blood vessels and you'd probably recover, with brain damage corresponding to the location of the shot). The .22 round bounces around in there and causes far more damage to the nervous tissue and blood vessels. Of course, the .22 round is more likely to deflect off of the skull on a glancing shot, whereas the .45 round would not...

Are you seriously trying to say that you have a better chance of surviving a .45 shot to the head than a .22??
kevyn668
Depends on your Combat Pool.
Moirdryd
As a note from across the pond in a not so recent news item (2002 this happened)
a builder fell in a building sight and impales her head upon a 1 inche thick iron pole just behind the temple (it struck her just below the edge of the hard hat) clean through to a foot out the other side of her head. Fire crews had to be called to cut the bar down so she could be taken to hospital, after some careful surgery it was removed. She was awake through the whole thing save for the surgery itself.

Also, last week. A man went to his dentist because he had incredible tooth ache. X-rays showed a six inche nail going up through his jaw, passing just behind his eye and into his skull. Seems he`d shot himsefl accidentally with a nail gun he`d been working with a few days before and somehow hadnt noticed.

scarey stuff
Trax
I heard that one too, it missed one of the eyes by only 2 centimeters I think.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Method)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Jan 31 2005, 05:35 PM)
Even today, we have cases of people that have lost up to half of their brain and are still alive....

I assume you mean by surgery?

Theres a big difference between having a large section of your brain removed surgically and having half your brain puréed by the concusive force of a .45 round passing through your cranial cavity.... eek.gif

Surgery, impalement, gunshots (uncommon, but not rare), and over a hundred other methods. It depends on more factors than I know enough to guess at.
Glyph
QUOTE (Sabosect)
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Did Nerble pass out from the Heal/Treat spell? If so, how did he sustain the spell long enough for it to become permanent on Timmy? (See "Permanent Spell Base Time" table on page 178 in SR3.)


GM decided to be kind and allow Nerble to stay awake long enough to complete it. Otherwise, Timmy would be quite dead right now. Very lethal run.

Okay, that makes the cyberware malfunction seem less vindictive. I guess the GM figured, since the character survived only due to his kindness, he would give him a cyberware malfunction, instead of letting him get off scott free.
Austere Emancipator
With all the talk about the few Phineas Gages, we easily forget the fact that something like 99.5% of the people who get objects of significant size rammed through their skulls die outright and can never be brought back (ie. you can maybe put them on life support machines but they're braindead).

QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Not as bad as a .22 round... the .45 has a chance of just passing through, and you're more likely to die from the edema and hemorrhage than from the actual bullet (i.e. surgery can repair the blood vessels and you'd probably recover, with brain damage corresponding to the location of the shot). The .22 round bounces around in there and causes far more damage to the nervous tissue and blood vessels. Of course, the .22 round is more likely to deflect off of the skull on a glancing shot, whereas the .45 round would not...

Assuming that the .22 bullet penetrates the skull to get to the brain, it isn't made of rubber so it doesn't "bounce around". It is more likely than the .45 bullet to deflect from the inside of the skull or in an extreme case even follow the inside curve of the skull for a short while, slightly increasing the total length of the wound cavity.

But then you get to the fact that the .45 bullet is twice the size of the .22 in diameter, and thus damages an area four times the volume of the .22. To achieve the same amount of tissue displaced (and, in the case of the brain, seriously damaged) as the .45, the .22 would have to bounce back and forth four times inside the skull, and that, umm, that just ain't gonna happen. And that's excluding the pressure waves that occur when a bullet enters the liquids surrounding the brain and the brain itself, which are going to be much more pronounced with the .45 because of its shape and energy.
hahnsoo
Just the facts:
Part 2: Prognosis in penetrating brain injury. Journal of Trauma-Injury Infection & Critical Care. 51(2 Suppl):S44-86, 2001 Aug.

If you can get the wounded to an ER and to surgery, your chances are better than 99.5%. In a battlefield (or street) situation, this isn't always feasible, of course, which is why the current mortality rate that includes "Dead on Arrival" or "Dead at the Scene" is 93% (note: This number includes civilian suicides, which is overwhelmingly the majority of civilian PBIs). For patients admitted to neurosurgery (after the year 1990), the mortality rate is between 35 to 57% depending on which study you look at. However, favorable recovery for civilians who make it to surgery is 74%.

The rate of favorable recovery is higher for military penetrating brain injuries, due to the type of injuries and hospital procedures involving penetrating brain injuries. Reported mortality for penetrating brain injury during WW II and Vietnam is approximately 30%.

Erdogan E. Izci Y. Gonul E. Timurkaynak E. Ventricular injury following cranial gunshot wounds: clinical study. Military Medicine. 169(9):691-5, 2004 Sep.

Fatality rate: 32.8% among the studied patients. Ventricular injury is among the worst of gunshot wounds to the head, as it causes significant hemorrhage and edema.
BitBasher
Sources/links please? I ask because I'd like to read them. I work for the local PD here and my experience talking to the folks that are directly involved in situations like this is wholly at odds with your statistics.
Method
I think what the stats are saying is that if you get shot in the head just outside a trauma center you have 99.5% chance of living, but otherwise (which I suspect is almost always) your dead 93% of the time.

That doesn't speak too highly for surviving a gunshot wound to the head.
Tarantula
What it says is, if you're shot and get near-immediate medical attention, you have a 35% chance of dieing, doesn't say not brain dead, just not dead dead.
Austere Emancipator
Since I'm not interested enough in the subject matter to spend $20.00+ on the full article, I'm just going by the abstract, but it seems that the 32.8% figure is for patients who were alive on arrival, since I suppose you don't do "surgical treatment" on dead people. First counting off the 93% who are dead before they get treatment, the fatality rate rises to 95.3% -- although admittedly the high rate of suicides might skew the statistic since it might take quite a while before they're even found, let alone gotten into a hospital.

And while it would seem logical that ventricular injuries are some of the most serious, the abstract says "Ventricular injury is a poor prognostic factor for penetrating cranial gunshot wounds." Do you happen to have the whole article, or are you just going on the abstract too?
Austere Emancipator
As for the Prognosis... article in JTIICC (which is available as a PDF here, it has a number of other interesting statistics as well.

In 5 separate studies of a total of 464 patients with penetrating brain injuries from gunshots in different areas of the world from 1979 to 1990, of the patients who were alive when committed to the hospital and received surgical treatment, 64.5% died of their injuries. These are from the same studies that showed mortality rates of up to 93% when prehospital deaths were included. In 20 different studies, the overall mortality rate was 88% including prehospital death, and percentage of unfavorable outcome (moderate or serious disability or "vegetable state") was 97%.

In the military, low-velocity shrapnel is by far the main cause of penetrating brain injury, and thus the mortality rates are far lower. In one reported injury series of 435 patients from the Iran-Iraq war, 82% of the injuries were from shrapnel. In another series from the Lebanon area in 1982-1985, gunshot-PBIs were found to have a 86% higher mortality rate than shrapnel-PBIs. In the Iran-Iraq war series there was only a 17% mortality rate for admitted patients, but the mean time to admission was 49 hours.

Perforating PBI (through-and-through, entry and exit wounds) had a much higher mortality rate in the one series where it was compared to penetrating PBI (enters but does not leave, entry wound only). The odds ratio of death between perforating and penetrating or tangential (projectile glanced off skull, pieces of skull in brain) was 3.06 in this series.

Another interesting point: nobody seems to have done a thorough research on whether the caliber of the weapon which caused the injury has a significant effect on the mortality of the PBI. Maybe they are smart enough to realize that the bigger the wound cavity the more lethal it is without any further research?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And while it would seem logical that ventricular injuries are some of the most serious, the abstract says "Ventricular injury is a poor prognostic factor for penetrating cranial gunshot wounds." Do you happen to have the whole article, or are you just going on the abstract too?

I have access to the article in print form. nyahnyah.gif I did a medical literature review paper on the effects of gunshot trauma in my 2nd year of med school, which is why the subject is of great curiosity to me. As far as the first article, I just chose the paper that had the prettiest (read: It's all in a single graph) statistics and actually, that Journal of Trauma-Injury Infection & Critical Care reference has a list of a LOT of good studies done on gunshot wounds in general. If you have a morbid curiosity, I suggest checking it out.

Note that the definition of "immediate attention" varies depending on the scope of the study (urban, rural, crime-related, military, etc.), but it is generally accepted to be less than 2 hours.
Method
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Another interesting point: nobody seems to have done a thorough research on whether the caliber of the weapon which caused the injury has a significant effect on the mortality of the PBI. Maybe they are smart enough to realize that the bigger the wound cavity the more lethal it is without any further research?

Probably the data isn't sufficient (i.e. the trauma surgeons, while skilled, may not be able to identify every round, and probably don't report it most of the time if they do).

Needless to say its not the kind of study you could reproduce data for, except maybe by shooting one of our many furry friends in the head repeatedly with different weapons and speculating how that reflects on human anatomy/trauma.... I'd be surprised if noone has doen this.
Method
Man you would not believe the stuff you can find if you do a PubMed search for "penetrating brain injury animal model".

Check this out!! eek.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Method)
I'd be surprised if noone has doen this.

So would I. No doubt a ground-breaking work of science. I can just see the Conclusions-section: "All other things being equal, a bigger hole through a mammal's skull is more likely to kill it than a smaller hole."
Req
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Method)
I'd be surprised if noone has doen this.

So would I. No doubt a ground-breaking work of science. I can just see the Conclusions-section: "All other things being equal, a bigger hole through a mammal's skull is more likely to kill it than a smaller hole."

The Conclusions section absolutely has to mention either cancer, terrorism, or global warming, if you want to get your funding grant renewed. smile.gif
Fortune
Fine, then you just change the conclusion to "All other things being equal, a bigger hole through a terrorist's skull is more likely to kill him or her than a smaller hole." biggrin.gif
Club
QUOTE
"All other things being equal, a bigger hole through a mammal's skull is more likely to kill it than a smaller hole."


Esp. when you consider that the bone formerly filling that hole has to go somewhere. I would make a layman's bet that a bigger bullet makes more and nastier splinters bouncing around the poor SOB's braincase
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