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Rev
Yea, I have heard that some of the modules, especially older ones, don't seem to agree with those guidelines. Its all good news. 200k is enough to buy one moderate upgrade... of course the magical charachters all get it too, so they can pile on bioware as well.
Grinder
Mages usually need a lot of cash too - foci are very expensive. Not to mention weapon foci...
3278
QUOTE (Rev)
The guidelines specify that people only make something in the thousands per session, and something like 5 karma. If you give them 100 times that amount of money or gear you aren't following the guidelines.

No. The guidelines specify that a shadowrunner should make one run a month, on average, and make the cost of his lifestyle, on average, plus expenses, each run. [Or the average of team-mates, if the team-mates have differing lifestyles.] The guidelines also specify that once a year - or so - a shadowrunner should have a "windfall" of approximately six times that amount.

I'm sure you're thinking of the table on page 100 of the Companion that shows Assassination as being worth 5,000 nuyen, extraction at 20,000, and so on. But these are the "baseline" payments, and not the guidelines for ultimate pay.

Stepping aside from whether or not the payment guidelines would allow you to ever make 1,000,000 nuyen, let's all acknowledge that the guidelines, as presented, are a game mechanic intended to allow GM control over player finances, and not a realistic depiction of the actual finances of professional criminals in 206x. Realistically, high-end shadowrunners can certainly make 1 million nuyen, if only by stealing tremendously expensive vehicles and selling them through brokers. Certainly, there are several ships a team of shadowrunners could steal and sell that would pay more than a million nuyen apiece for the team that did it.

The guidelines are absurd, as well as being a serious detriment to dynamic groups; if one character lives a Luxury lifestyle, and several others live Low or lower, the runner with the Luxury lifestyle is going to have to get a job, since shadowrunning can no longer support him [since the guidelines average his lifestyle with the others to determine pay]. That's ridiculous. Obviously, the payment a team recieves depends on its capability, and not on its lifestyle. The guidelines are a game mechanic, nothing more. [Fortunately, they are, of course, only guidelines, and not rules; even then, certainly, they'd be optional anyway, like all rules in Shadowrun].
Rev
Dude, that means that a person living high lifestyle should pile up maybe 60k a year. It takes years to buy a peice of cultured bioware, or even a largeish peice of alphaware. A runner living luxury can actually start buying one upgrade a year with thier 600k, though even they will never get something like beta wired reflexes 3. Because this messes up the game it is no suprise to find that the experienced and skillfull gm's we see posting here don't follow these guidelines and thus don't see the problem.



Now back to the question in the topic:

I think that yes, in general 1 million Y mundanes are probably too good at creation. If you do even a moderate amount of powergaming with that mil you start out pretty sick.

Riggers are really the worst. They can easily start out as an army in a box. Sam's are almost as bad. It would probably be a better game if the top money option was the 400k.

If the million wasn't an option I think cyberware could be cheaper and the whole relative power curve problems between various archtypes would be lessened.
Grinder
Ever tried to buy skillwires at a higher rating and some other stuff at char creation? 400k won't be enough for that, so for me there's no reason to limit the money so drastically. You can build a badass combat monster with 1mil, but you can also spend in a lot other ways.
Rev
Yea it would be nice if some of the less combat oriented stuff was cheaper too. I tend to take the million, but end up with a charachter that looks like I spent 400k because of the wierd stuff I buy.
mfb
you're mistaken, Rev. the guideline is, a runner should make a little more than his lifestyle on a monthly basis, doing average runs. if you do a non-average run, you get non-average pay.
Rev
Heh, and luckily all the runs are above average.
mfb
*shrug* depends on the game.
DrJest
QUOTE
The guidelines specify that people only make something in the thousands per session, and something like 5 karma. If you give them 100 times that amount of money or gear you aren't following the guidelines.


And this prevents the samurai from buying his snackies from cash payments, agreed.

But - and this has come up before - how much does it cost a megacorp to make cyberware?

We argued over this... last week I think, but mostly that devolved to a question about MBW and similar cutting edge tech. Mind you, MBW's been around in SR for eight game years now, so who knows.

My point being, take CD's as an example. Each CD costs, what, around 10p to make? And they sell for an average of 10. The theory could apply to other tech as well, right?

This happened in a game I was in. The samurai, when it came to negotiating a fee, asked for a piece of betaware. The Johnson goggled, and said something like "That costs 100k nuyen." To which the samurai responded "Not you, it doesn't."

A fair point well made, and he got his cyber.
mfb
mmmm, no. you have to remember how much money the corp is losing by not selling that piece of 'ware.
tisoz
QUOTE (mfb)
mmmm, no. you have to remember how much money the corp is losing by not selling that piece of 'ware.

That statement is supported by the fact one never sees a no cash refund or store credit only sign or in a terms of sale. sarcastic.gif

I've seen too many instances of people insisting on goods or services in place of cash. Paying cash is usually the last option people would take.

The cyber instead of cash example would probably read more like:
Johnson offers X cash.
Runner asks for cyberware worth 1.5X cash.
Johnson points this out.
Runner points out it only costs Johnson's corp. .4X.
Johnson starts thinking yeah, but we get .8X for it from the distributer. So I'm really saving .2X.

Even if they got 1.5X for the cyber, what is the holding cost waiting for a future sale that might never come?
Moirdryd
The thought occurs that the `power level` arguement runs almost exclusively from a PvP (player versus player) perspective. Indeed i`ve seen little or nothing outside of PvP when it comes to guaging `power levels`, which is unsurprising considering the arsenal the GM has at his disposal (everything from Joe Ganger to Cyber Zombies to Lofwyr).

My own group perhaps has one of the best mixes when joining this arguement. I run a `progressive` campaign. That is several storylines of varying importance running side by side for random lengths.

Gene, the wildwest affect gunslinger adept who`s been an active char since things kicked off little over a year ago (probably been in 30 game sessions now). Grade 2 initiate and has skills ranging from 4-6 on a list of about 8 active skills (except his pistols which is cool.gif

Sassie, ex mafia ork Razor-Girl. The players` third char since the game opened and has been in about 8 sessions now (including three `double length` sessions and one Storyline conclusion <read big awards>. Silly amounts of reaction enhancing Cyber and Bio and a few other tricks too.

Kitty, Elven skillwire jocky and face. Player`s second char and only three game sessions in.

The power levels should be hideously out. But for some reason they dont feel like it. Its all down to the way the chars are played. Infact i think Kitty in my sixth world 2062 is possibley the most powerful of the above, purely because of her massed ID`s, contacts, a few well selected skills and some cleverly used bits of kit.

Remember, when the drek hits the fan, you`ll be glad of the 15 dice gunslinger magic adept in the corridor with you. Just like he`ll be grateful for your Uber fast cybered reflexes that leave even him standing. And you`ll both be happy to know you`ll have a safe house waiting and the Johnson can be talked into couching up a few more Nuyen for the job, or you`ll get some good prices on the stuff you swiped.
akarenti
nuyen.gif
QUOTE (tisoz)
The cyber instead of cash example would probably read more like:
Johnson offers X cash.
Runner asks for cyberware worth 1.5X cash.
Johnson points this out.
Runner points out it only costs Johnson's corp. .4X.
Johnson starts thinking yeah, but we get .8X for it from the distributer. So I'm really saving .2X.


And all that was ignoring the fact that corps ignore Street Index. The fact that players would normally have to pay 2-3 times the "market" price for most high end items, not to mention make Availability tests, makes getting implants amd eqipment as payment a much, much more efficient way to improve one's gear. Of course, magicians can do the same thing with Foci or Spell Formulae or whatever.

I'm kind of blessed in that there's a lot of funds redistribution in my group. If mage x racks up 100,000 nuyen.gif over 4 or 5 runs by fencing Foci from the magical opposition, and rigger y gets one of his drones blown up, the mage is more than willing to help replace it. Same goes for upgrades, ammo, etc. The players keep all their Nuyen totals separate, but they realize that not every character type will need the same amount of money, so they chip in on things that help the group.

So far, I've not had a problem with a character dominating because of their stats.

It doesn't take the worlds greatest GM to realize "the group has a mage that knows what he's doing; the badguys should have defenses against magic!" I mean, that's kind of the GMs job; to challenge and engage all the players. "Mages are too powerful at high karma levels" sounds a lot like "I don't know about Background Count, Drone Object Resistent, Magic Loss, or, if all else fails, that the Bad Guys can hire magicians, too."
Paul
QUOTE (Rev)
Dude, that means that a person living high lifestyle should pile up maybe 60k a year. It takes years to buy a peice of cultured bioware, or even a largeish peice of alphaware. A runner living luxury can actually start buying one upgrade a year with thier 600k, though even they will never get something like beta wired reflexes 3. Because this messes up the game it is no suprise to find that the experienced and skillfull gm's we see posting here don't follow these guidelines and thus don't see the problem.



Now back to the question in the topic:

I think that yes, in general 1 million Y mundanes are probably too good at creation. If you do even a moderate amount of powergaming with that mil you start out pretty sick.

Riggers are really the worst. They can easily start out as an army in a box. Sam's are almost as bad. It would probably be a better game if the top money option was the 400k.

If the million wasn't an option I think cyberware could be cheaper and the whole relative power curve problems between various archtypes would be lessened.

HUH???? question.gif

Rev I believe you to be a fairly intelligent guy, and while we may not always see eye to eye politcally I have always respected your knowledge of the game, but I am afraid I am not following your post here.

Could you please clarify just exactly what you're saying here. I am confused more each time I read it.
Rev
The books say that shadowruns should pay enough each month to support your lifestyle + costs + a little more + a windfall every year for about 6 months pay. Do a little math and this means that if you are paying to support high lifestyle players should net something like 60k a year. Maybe 80k with the "a little more". That is nowhere near enough to significantly upgrade a street sam or rigger, it isn't really even enough to buy big foci. If you pay to support luxury lifestyle they should net about 600k, that is getting to be enough to upgrade a sam, and enough to buy a really heafty focus or to get about 1 magic loss worth of cultured bioware.


For the second part I think that cyberware prices are set so high partly in response to the 1mY option, because of the way money goes up more non-linearly in the creation system than other things. You get 250% of the money by choosing priority A compared with B, none of the other choices go up like that. If resources did not do that cyberware could be cheaper and gm's would not have to give a high-resources sam half a million Y so they could feel thier upgrades and figure out some excuse not to give everybody else the same thing.
mfb
there are other factors involved, tisoz. for instance, cash, in the form of certified credsticks, is untracable. cyberware is not.

you're also assuming that the megacorp doesn't own the distributor. the nature of megacorps argues against this being a common circumstance. in which case, since the corp recoups 100% of the base price of the cyberware it sells, the corp really is paying the runners 1.5X.
Tanka
Rev: Guidelines. Not rules.

If you're in a street-level campaign and somebody buys High lifestyle, well, he may not have it long.

If you're in a corp-level (or whatver other high-type-level) campaign and somebody buys street, they're gonna get tons more cash/goodies than what they need to pay off monthly lifestyle.
Paul
Rev I think everyone has pointed out that these are guidelines presented in the Companion as possible rules to use if needed. I hink we can all agree that the people writing this aren't trying to encourage Monty Haul gaming right? so they're going to make things conservative, and then when you get generous its really about on par right?

I thik you're getting too caught up in a point of minutia here. A talented player will demand more than 5k for wet work, with good reason. After all the penalty for murder hasn't gotten any easier to deal with so why wouldn't you demand a little bitmore? Depending on the target of course, I could see a pieceof wetwork going from as little as 5k (Kill that squatter in the barrens) to millions. (Off Lofwyr and do it in public.)

I'm not sure yet about your high resources thing, but at face value it sounds reasonable. One thing SOTA hasn't reflected well in the past is prices-it's a difficult thing to do.
Tanka
QUOTE (Paul)
[...]to millions. (Off Lofwyr and do it in public.)[...]

Millions? Man, you set your sights low. Try at least in the tens of billions. And a way to stay out of the sights of every other GD out there for the rest of your natural life.
Paul
What can I say? I've always been cheap. smile.gif That's what I get for just throwing random numbers together. smile.gif

hahnsoo
QUOTE (Paul)
a pieceof wetwork going from as little as 5k (Kill that squatter in the barrens) to millions. (Off Lofwyr and do it in public.)

I'd argue that the price to kill a squatter on the Barrens would be roughly about the price of a candy bar, especially if that street scum you hired really likes candy.
Tanka
I'd shoot the J on principle for that.
Paul
QUOTE ("hahnsoo")
I'd argue that the price to kill a squatter on the Barrens would be roughly about the price of a candy bar, especially if that street scum you hired really likes candy.


1. The numbers were just pulled out of a hat, they had no real purpose other tha to illustrate a possible price range. Adjust them to fit your own game, and views.

2. Shadowrunners are not just some bum off the street. They are professionals. Sure your girlfriend might make a great masseuse, but she doesn't get paid 50 and hour for it does she? Maybe you're a great garage mechcanic, but do you have the certificate that allows you to charge 60 plus dollars an hour for it?

That's the difference between Profesional Criminals and the crack head who commits a crime of passion.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Paul)
QUOTE ("hahnsoo")
I'd argue that the price to kill a squatter on the Barrens would be roughly about the price of a candy bar, especially if that street scum you hired really likes candy.


1. The numbers were just pulled out of a hat, they had no real purpose other tha to illustrate a possible price range. Adjust them to fit your own game, and views.

2. Shadowrunners are not just some bum off the street. They are professionals. Sure your girlfriend might make a great masseuse, but she doesn't get paid 50 and hour for it does she? Maybe you're a great garage mechcanic, but do you have the certificate that allows you to charge 60 plus dollars an hour for it?

That's the difference between Profesional Criminals and the crack head who commits a crime of passion.

It was a joke. I have happy thoughts thinking about Trolls killing for candy bars. "Mmm, Snickers..."
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Moirdryd)
The thought occurs that the `power level` arguement runs almost exclusively from a PvP (player versus player) perspective. Indeed i`ve seen little or nothing outside of PvP when it comes to guaging `power levels`, which is unsurprising considering the arsenal the GM has at his disposal (everything from Joe Ganger to Cyber Zombies to Lofwyr).

My own group perhaps has one of the best mixes when joining this arguement. I run a `progressive` campaign. That is several storylines of varying importance running side by side for random lengths.

Gene, the wildwest affect gunslinger adept who`s been an active char since things kicked off little over a year ago (probably been in 30 game sessions now). Grade 2 initiate and has skills ranging from 4-6 on a list of about 8 active skills (except his pistols which is cool.gif

Sassie, ex mafia ork Razor-Girl. The players` third char since the game opened and has been in about 8 sessions now (including three `double length` sessions and one Storyline conclusion <read big awards>. Silly amounts of reaction enhancing Cyber and Bio and a few other tricks too.

Kitty, Elven skillwire jocky and face. Player`s second char and only three game sessions in.

The power levels should be hideously out. But for some reason they dont feel like it. Its all down to the way the chars are played. Infact i think Kitty in my sixth world 2062 is possibley the most powerful of the above, purely because of her massed ID`s, contacts, a few well selected skills and some cleverly used bits of kit.

Remember, when the drek hits the fan, you`ll be glad of the 15 dice gunslinger magic adept in the corridor with you. Just like he`ll be grateful for your Uber fast cybered reflexes that leave even him standing. And you`ll both be happy to know you`ll have a safe house waiting and the Johnson can be talked into couching up a few more Nuyen for the job, or you`ll get some good prices on the stuff you swiped.

Power level can be a GM problem when there is too much disparity. Opposition that would be high level initiate physmage who can routinely fight Free Spirits and Dragons would simply slaughter street level gangers.

It can also be a problem if the GM simply doesn't want to pull GDs and battleships out of his hoop to throw at the team.
Paul
hahnsoo sorry. I was having a bad hair day. smile.gif
tisoz
QUOTE (mfb)
there are other factors involved, tisoz. for instance, cash, in the form of certified credsticks, is untracable. cyberware is not.

you're also assuming that the megacorp doesn't own the distributor. the nature of megacorps argues against this being a common circumstance. in which case, since the corp recoups 100% of the base price of the cyberware it sells, the corp really is paying the runners 1.5X.

Who is to say the cyberware didn't get reported lost or stolen? That is the least I can see happening. Where do all the things that have SI applied to them come from? The cyber could be delivered through the same channels.

I guess I'm assuming the runners are not always dealing with the CEO of the megacorp. A division would care a lot more about its own bottom line than some other divisions tiny loss. More specifically, the Johnson is going to worry more about the cost to his shadowrun ops budget. If his job gives him access to the piece of equipment at lower cost, that is the cost he is going to worry about.
Tanka
Well, obviously, new cyber gets reported as lost and/or stolen. Used, well, the guy who previously had it probably doesn't care where it goes.
Glyph
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Power level can be a GM problem when there is too much disparity. Opposition that would be high level initiate physmage who can routinely fight Free Spirits and Dragons would simply slaughter street level gangers.

It can also be a problem if the GM simply doesn't want to pull GDs and battleships out of his hoop to throw at the team.

I don't really buy the "power disparity" argument, which is usually used by a GM trying to convince someone not to play a tough character where the other characters are not as combat oriented.

First of all, the beauty of Shadowrun is its lethality. You don't really need to break out the heavy artillery every time. Someone who can go toe to toe with a dragon can still be taken down by a group of gangers who use intelligent tactics and outnumber the PCs.

Secondly, a fighting-oriented character should be the one doing the heavy lifting in a fight; the others should be mopping up, watching his back, or just crouching behind cover to occasionally plink with their pistols. The heaviest opposition should be engaged by the combat types. It's not like the enemies will all have the same stats - there will be a mix of stronger and weaker enemies, which the PCs can match up to accordingly. Even if it is a group of similar enemies, such as a squad of guards, the sammie can be dealing with several of them, while the others can take a guard apiece, or for the weakest characters even gang up on one of the remaining guards.

If the weaker PCs are getting killed, make it clear that a team that doesn't work together has that happen to them. Why were they jumping in over their heads instead of letting the sammie do his job? Or, why didn't the sammie protect them?

I don't think there needs to be a power equality between team members. That is an almost impossible goal anyways, what with the wide variety that even the Priority system offers. The game is about teamwork. Let everyone shine in their own specialty, and they will be less bothered that the sammie gets more actions than they do and can soak damage better.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 12 2005, 03:27 AM)

I don't really buy the "power disparity" argument, which is usually used by a GM trying to convince someone not to play a tough character where the other characters are not as combat oriented.

First of all, the beauty of Shadowrun is its lethality. You don't really need to break out the heavy artillery every time. Someone who can go toe to toe with a dragon can still be taken down by a group of gangers who use intelligent tactics and outnumber the PCs.

Secondly, a fighting-oriented character should be the one doing the heavy lifting in a fight; the others should be mopping up, watching his back, or just crouching behind cover to occasionally plink with their pistols. The heaviest opposition should be engaged by the combat types. It's not like the enemies will all have the same stats - there will be a mix of stronger and weaker enemies, which the PCs can match up to accordingly. Even if it is a group of similar enemies, such as a squad of guards, the sammie can be dealing with several of them, while the others can take a guard apiece, or for the weakest characters even gang up on one of the remaining guards.

If the weaker PCs are getting killed, make it clear that a team that doesn't work together has that happen to them. Why were they jumping in over their heads instead of letting the sammie do his job? Or, why didn't the sammie protect them?

I don't think there needs to be a power equality between team members. That is an almost impossible goal anyways, what with the wide variety that even the Priority system offers. The game is about teamwork. Let everyone shine in their own specialty, and they will be less bothered that the sammie gets more actions than they do and can soak damage better.

I disagree so profoundly with that statement. Large power and karma disparities between PCs really, really messed up my games, to the extent that they made me GM a *lot* less and almost stop enjoying the game. I had a problem where it was impossible for me to provide a meaningful challenge to the players because the more powerful characters were immune to damage but the new players just had 1 karma pool and were, well, starting characters.

It got really really bad, and I wouldn't wish that on any GM. I can't tell you how frustrating and discouraging that was, and how it completely robbed anything that I ran of any meaning.

Also, the statement,

QUOTE

First of all, the beauty of Shadowrun is its lethality. You don't really need to break out the heavy artillery every time. Someone who can go toe to toe with a dragon can still be taken down by a group of gangers who use intelligent tactics and outnumber the PCs.


is utterly destroyed by the mind-devouring stupidity which is karma pool. If you have someone running around with 9 points of layered armor which is surpisingly penalty-free thanks to the enraging stupidity that is Form-Fitting Armor, and at the same time the person has a lot of karma pool, the gangers with intelligent tactics don't stand a chance. It dosen't matter how many times they hit, or that they can all hit one PC twice and the rest of the team can't hit them back because of a bottleneck. The PC soaks, uses karma, soaks some more, and basically takes no damage. And next turn it's all over for the gang. Nothing is more frustrating, stupid, and pointless, but that's the way it happens.

Man, I really really hate karma pool once it starts to get out of hand. A few dice is okay, in my book, but when you're looking at like 10 dice or more things just get really really stupid.
Brazila
That is why my group uses the rule that karma pool refreshes every run, not scene or 24 hours. Yeah that can be kind of abstract, but so i karma. It reallly helps close the begining character/high karma character gap. If you have 10 KP and get to use it 10 tens and I have 10 KP and get to use it 10 times, that is just a crazy imbalance. If you have 10 KP and I have 1, that is still an imbalance, but the difference is 9 not 90/run.
tisoz
We always balanced the karma gap with a team karma pool. Every new character put their 1 point of karma into it, so it got to be a nice little pool. People were somewhat hesitant to tap into the pool too, so usually a person would suggest, "Now would probably be a good time to use the team karma pool", and usually get seconded and some nods around the table.
mfb
QUOTE (tisoz)
I guess I'm assuming the runners are not always dealing with the CEO of the megacorp. A division would care a lot more about its own bottom line than some other divisions tiny loss. More specifically, the Johnson is going to worry more about the cost to his shadowrun ops budget. If his job gives him access to the piece of equipment at lower cost, that is the cost he is going to worry about.

that's exactly my point, actually. a division that doesn't deal with cyberware shouldn't be able to save money by paying the runners in cyberware. Rug Doctor, Incorporated, deals in clean rugs. just because they're owned by the same holding corporation that owns Badass Cyberware LLC doesn't mean that a Rug Doctor Johnson is going to be able to dip into Badass Cyberware's resources. now, if you're working for Badass Cyberware? hell yeah they'll pay you in cyber instead of cash, because they're paying, as you said, 0.4X for X worth of work.
toturi
QUOTE (mfb)
that's exactly my point, actually. a division that doesn't deal with cyberware shouldn't be able to save money by paying the runners in cyberware. Rug Doctor, Incorporated, deals in clean rugs. just because they're owned by the same holding corporation that owns Badass Cyberware LLC doesn't mean that a Rug Doctor Johnson is going to be able to dip into Badass Cyberware's resources. now, if you're working for Badass Cyberware? hell yeah they'll pay you in cyber instead of cash, because they're paying, as you said, 0.4X for X worth of work.

Or a Badass Johnson (no pun intended) could conceivably pay you in rugs.

Maybe the runner needed a new rug for his living room and that would increase his lifestyle level?
fistandantilus4.0
DId you just watch the Big Lubowski?
tisoz
Company discount. A Contact in the needed division that can provide the gear.

I worked my way through college delivering pizzas. We got so much free pizza, we got tired of eating it. I made a delivery to the Dairy Queen. When I was there, I suggested in the future we could probably trade pizza for ice cream stuff. Worked out fine. Then the DQ manager comes up with the brilliant idea that he should be getting pizza at wholesale rates whil providing ice cream at retail rates. Well, I worked my way through high school at a DQ, and the profit margins are about the same. Let him know it, pissed him off. Wound up trading with a lot of other places.
DrJest
I have to say, I'd based my suggestion of payment-in-kind on the assumption that the Johnson had access to whatever it was you were after. Naturally I don't expect the Stuffer Shack regional manager to give you a smartlink. A divisional manager for Ares, now that's another matter.
Moirdryd
Karma is never a garuantee, it just stacks the deck a little for you. Our aforementioned Adept has, unshockingly, a pretty good pool of 5. His face went white as a sheet when he got caught with no combat pool left for dodging in the open with no cover all of a couple of meters away from a razor guy with an SMG on burst fire. Why? because he`d karma pooled against deadly hits before and been left a bleeding near-corpse on the dirt.

On the subject of convincing challenges its always nice to work around abilities on other aspects of the story. Example, Gene our gunslinger is being Initiated by Harlequin into the reforming Order of the Knights of the Crying Spire. Should he pass the ordeal he`s in for a wild ride with an easier time initiating. However he needs to go a retrieve a pair of rings from a Dragons lair. (Hestaby). All he`s been told beyond that is the name of the Dragon and that he has to go and negotiate for them with her. The char ahs the right personality traits and even a few of the right skills for this, but walking unarmed into a dragons lair hasnt filled him with fluffyness.

Just a twist to the usual hack.
Glyph
@Wounded Ronin:

I guess I wasn't too clear (my bad); I was talking more about the differences between starting characters and how the GM can deal with them. Karma Pool does change things - but that's only to be expected. Mixing characters with different levels of experience is not quite as bad as, say, putting a 1st level character into a 10th level party, but it can be close.

It depends on the campaign, though. If the players have to burn Karma Pool on a regular basis, and spend their Good Karma on developing breadth rather than pumping up a narrow range of skills, then new characters could be introduced more easily. I also liked the suggestion about using a Karma Pool for groups.

I also still think a group of gangers could challenge an experienced team - if they used hit and run tactics, and cover, instead of standing in the open, packed closely together, waiting for the PC's to blow them away.
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