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James McMurray
Bone lacing, 5/3 coat with form-fitting body armor, orthoskin, etc. Its really easy to get a ballistic armor rating of 7, and cyberware can take that even higher.

QUOTE
My solution is usually to shoot them in the head. Works real well, too.


So at +4 TN you get enough successes to bother the troll? That means your base TN is 12 (4/range + 4/cover +4/called shot). Even with a smartlink that's TN 10. The troll still has 13 dice to use against TN 9. He's almost gauranteed to get more successes than you and your 10-12 dice, especially if he uses combat pool. If he has orthoskin, a helmet, and bone lacing his TN is only 6, meaning he may not even need combat pool.

And of course, he can always just dodge those shots to the head, at least tthe first few.

Also, if your sec gaurds are prone to making shots to the head, do they also do it to the remaining team members, who probably also have armor of 7? If not, why not?

QUOTE
The guard (pistol 3) got lucky while aiming for the head (four 6s on a total of 6 dice rolled, yay!), the troll less so. He had 14 dice of body, no armor on the head so he needed TN 6. He only got 5 after 3 retry. Man, was he disgusted.


So your baseline for whether a troll is tough or not rests upon an incident that shouldn't have happened except for incredibly bad luck on one side and good luck on the other?
DocMortand
I know the way I tend to do head shots as a GM is to have the NPC do a normal shot or two against the uber PC. If this doesn't work, they switch tactics and shoot for the head...

Of course, my group is so dangerous now the NPCs generally don't get a chance to adjust...it's one shot and then they're down. And generally the wounds they're taking are Deadly over-damage...
Charon
Sheesh but you're cranky.

QUOTE
So at +4 TN you get enough successes to bother the troll? That means your base TN is 12 (4/range + 4/cover +4/called shot). Even with a smartlink that's TN 10.


No, that's often TN 7. Short range, +4 -1 for aiming. A smartlink makes it TN 5 which is very easy. Cover, what cover? Oh, right, the cover that the runner is using for a defensive position. Well, if the runner wants to hold a defensive position, my guards will get out of sight and wait for the fast response team.
Time is usually running against the runner. They are the one who usually have to storm a position. They are the one who will break cover.

Ok, it's a generalization. But seriously, a runner is helluva more likely to have to break cover than my standard goon, in my experience at least.

QUOTE
The troll still has 13 dice to use against TN 9. He's almost gauranteed to get more successes than you and your 10-12 dice, especially if he uses combat pool. If he has orthoskin, a helmet, and bone lacing his TN is only 6, meaning he may not even need combat pool.


You forget that he must roll 6 more sucesses than the shooter to shrug off the damage. 9M to the head means 9S which requires 6 sucesses to shrug off. If the shooter has scored as little as 2 sucesses, your Troll would require 8 sucess on TN 6 (best figure) on 13 dice. Very. Unlikely. I'll do the prob when I have the time but chances are that Troll is getting at least some damage or emptying his karma pool on that one shot.


QUOTE
And of course, he can always just dodge those shots to the head, at least the first few.


Yeah, the first few. Runner don't usually have the numbers either.

QUOTE

Also, if your sec gaurds are prone to making shots to the head, do they also do it to the remaining team members, who probably also have armor of 7? If not, why not?


First of all, the other team members aren't likely to be as tough as the troll. Wasn't that the whole point of your previous post?

Secondly, I'm more likely to shoot them in the torso. Not because I'm gentle, because it's more effective. Against low body opponent, you are better off shooting them in the chest. Lower TN to hit means more successes and less likelyhood of missing altogether. Target has easier time achieving successes because of lower TN but he can't have more successes than he has body, can he? If he's a BODY 4 mage, shooting him in the chest instead of the head is a no brainer.

QUOTE

So your baseline for whether a troll is tough or not rests upon an incident that shouldn't have happened except for incredibly bad luck on one side and good luck on the other?


Hey, who said anything about baseline? It's just a funny anecdote. Even if he had shrugged off the bullet, he'd have wasted Karma pool in most situation. At 14 Bod, TN 6, even if the guard had hit with only 1 sucess, it's highly unlikely the troll could have gotten 5 sucesses on 14 dice on the first try.

So even the lowly guard would have sucked a karma pool.

See, I play DnD too and one of the most basic lesson for DM is that you don't have to kill or even hurt the PCs for an encounter to be significant. You just have to drain their ressources. Like karma pool. By the time a serious challenge present itself, these Karma pool dice will be sorely missed.
Nikoli
Um, slight issue there.
You only get one benefit from a called shot. You can't bypass armor and auto-stage up the damage code, iirc
DocMortand
Yeah, that's the problem with called shots to the head. No bonuses to power, but if they're not wearing a helmet there's no armor.
Grinder
And helmets aren't cool. biggrin.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE
Sheesh but you're cranky.


No, I just disagree with you, and like to point out how every single runner on the planet should have at least 7 armor (unless you're playing without form fitting body armor). I also haven't seen a runner without a helmet in my game. Even a motorcycle helmet is 0/2 armor, and it has tinted glass which helps avoid those pesky cameras taking pictures of your face. smile.gif

QUOTE
Cover, what cover? Oh, right, the cover that the runner is using for a defensive position. Well, if the runner wants to hold a defensive position, my guards will get out of sight and wait for the fast response team.
Time is usually running against the runner. They are the one who usually have to storm a position. They are the one who will break cover.

Ok, it's a generalization. But seriously, a runner is helluva more likely to have to break cover than my standard goon, in my experience at least.


My experience is different. IME its fairly even as to when the team or the security has to break cover. And of course, if security is out of sight, they're going to be screwed when someone does pop out of cover. The cover-breaking runner will get to act before they can, and can hit them with an area attack of some sort (grenade, spell, etc). Or they can just find a different exit and go around security altogether. A Security team that hides will soon find itself getting fired because the runners will keep getting away.

QUOTE
Plus, don't forget that the Troll has to roll more success than the shooter on the body test. A Predator round to the head does S damage. That's 6 sucess + The sucesses of the shooter if you want to shrug off the damage.


So you combine two of the called shot effects into one? No wonder they're so deadly. By the RAW you only get to increase the damage level by one. By the FAQ you can either do that or ignore armor.

QUOTE
You forget that he must roll 6 more sucesses than the shooter to shrug off the damage


See above.

QUOTE
Yeah, the first few. Runner don't usually have the numbers either.


They don't need the numbers. Dodge TNs are 4. Headshot TNs (even in your best case scenario) are 7. Its pretty easy to get more successes than your opponents. Unless the entire enemy team gets to go before a single team member goes, the remainder of the team should be able to do something to hamper the enemy. If they can't they're useless in a fight and the troll should leave the team. Being the only bullet magnet is not a healthy job, even for a shadowrunner.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (James McMurray)
And how pray tell does he do that?

Unless the rest of the party hides, they are going to come under fire.

Pretty unlikely unless you've got an ultra-professional opposition, in which case things are bad anyway.

Ed the security guard is sweating bullets and wishing he'd warn Depends. He's got his pistol up and is staring down its barrel. Down at the end of the hallway, three people are taking pot-shots at him. Right dead in front of him, a giant Troll with big nasty weapons is bearing down on him. Who does he fire at?

~J
James McMurray
It depends, have the people with the pot shots hit his armor and/or wounded him? If so, Ed may very well target the guy(s) that hit him.

Has the troll been shooting at the rest of the security gaurds, while the remainder of the team shoot at Ed? If so, Ed is almost gauranteed to worry more about the guy that is being a threat to him.

Does Ed have a gun that quite obviously can't hurt the troll? If so, he'll either flee or attack the other runners while the remainder of his team takes on the troll.

Is Ed alone? If so, he probably runs.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 15 2005, 06:27 PM)
It depends, have the people with the pot shots hit his armor and/or wounded him? If so, Ed may very well target the guy(s) that hit him.

Even then, I doubt it.

QUOTE
Has the troll been shooting at the rest of the security gaurds, while the remainder of the team shoot at Ed? If so, Ed is almost gauranteed to worry more about the guy that is being a threat to him.


Again, I doubt it.

QUOTE
Does Ed have a gun that quite obviously can't hurt the troll? If so, he'll either flee or attack the other runners while the remainder of his team takes on the troll.


While that's easy to determine for us, the players, I doubt it would be apparent enough to be a factor. I doubt he'd even think of it.

QUOTE
Is Ed alone? If so, he probably runs.


Agreed on this one.

~J
Arethusa
QUOTE (James McMurray)
It depends, have the people with the pot shots hit his armor and/or wounded him? If so, Ed may very well target the guy(s) that hit him.

Has the troll been shooting at the rest of the security gaurds, while the remainder of the team shoot at Ed? If so, Ed is almost gauranteed to worry more about the guy that is being a threat to him.

Does Ed have a gun that quite obviously can't hurt the troll? If so, he'll either flee or attack the other runners while the remainder of his team takes on the troll.

Is Ed alone? If so, he probably runs.

That's a rather generous appraisal of security guard training, tactics, and situational awareness.
James McMurray
Obviously our ideas are different on the first two. No biggee, they're matters of personal opinion over what some fictional security gaurd would do when confronted by fictional murderers and thieves.

I have to say that I think its pretty obvious when a weapon can't possibly hurt a troll. Its got to be common knowledge that trolls in armor laugh at light pistols, and that trolls in heavy armor laugh at heavy pistols and assault rifle bursts.

Even if it isn't common knowledge, when that first bullet bounces off the troll and he doesn't even notice it, it should become very apparent.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Arethusa)
That's a rather generous appraisal of security guard training, tactics, and situational awareness.

What, only PCs are allowed to use good tactics, assess situations, and respond accordingly? If a security gaurd has training (represented by points in tactics, security procedures, etc) and he has an intelligence that is at least average, he should be able to respond to threats with some modicum of tactical capabilities.

If he doesn't have those things, he's probably just going to run away when the bigass troll with the bigass guns appears, whether that troll has other runners with him or not.
Moirdryd
High body trolls are indeed truly scarey and aye, Light pistols wont do much againts them. But there are so many ways of messing with trolls, bigger firepower is one (in my favoritely announed form of HTR teams). Following the simple logic of how everything else in the sixth world has adapted and current sensible practices (if they have an armoured vehicle then we use nastier weaponary) extended to the sxith world POV. See a troll get the HTR down there now (or get someone to a weapons locker) and give it some solid shotgun shells etc.
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 15 2005, 05:46 PM)
1 - No, I just disagree with you, and like to point out how every single runner on the planet should have at least 7 armor (unless you're playing without form fitting body armor). I also haven't seen a runner without a helmet in my game.

2 - My experience is different. IME its fairly even as to when the team or the security has to break cover. And of course, if security is out of sight, they're going to be screwed when someone does pop out of cover. The cover-breaking runner will get to act before they can, and can hit them with an area attack of some sort (grenade, spell, etc). Or they can just find a different exit and go around security altogether. A Security team that hides will soon find itself getting fired because the runners will keep getting away.

Well, good catch on the staging of damage VS armor avoidance thingy. Doesn't make sense to me, but hey.

1 - I can't believe most of your fights occur at ballistic 7+ with helmet. My runners only wear that when they are going in a war zone and discretion is pointless.

The average runner never have more than 5 ballistic in standard situation (except for cyber type who have augmentations). Even the ballistic 5 stuff is impractical if doing a high society gig or corporate infiltration.

2 - Guard aren't paid to kill runner but to guard stuff. As long as they cut off exits, call for backup and release the hounds, they are doing their job. Nobody except maybe Aztechnology and Lofwyr really expect standard guards to step in the line of fire of an enraged troll samurai. YMMV of course.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Moirdryd)
See a troll get the HTR down there now (or get someone to a weapons locker) and give it some solid shotgun shells etc.

5 seconds after that happens the rest of the party will have been turned to paste by that HTR unit, all because the party's troll was so tough that heavier methods were necessary.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Feb 15 2005, 07:59 PM)
See a troll get the HTR down there now (or get someone to a weapons locker) and give it some solid shotgun shells etc.

5 seconds after that happens the rest of the party will have been turned to paste by that HTR unit, all because the party's troll was so tough that heavier methods were necessary.

Why? Didn't they all run for cover? Didn't the HRT concentrate [more] on the troll? Didn't you only give them one really big gun? Isn't the team working together to escape and impede the attackers?
James McMurray
QUOTE
I can't believe most of your fights occur at ballistic 7+ with helmet. My runners only wear that when they are going in a war zone and discretion is pointless.

The average runner never have more than 5 ballistic in standard situation (except for cyber type who have augmentations). Even the ballistic 5 stuff is impractical if doing a high society gig or corporate infiltration.


Standard runs: Secure Jacket 5/3 (concealability 9) + full suit FFBA 4/1 + motorcycle helmet 0/2: total armor rating 7/5 with no layering penalties.

Hoity-toity runs: Armante outfit 5/3 (concealability 12) + full suit FFBA: total armor rating 7/3 with no layering penalties

I see no reason for anyone going into a run to not have 7 ballistic armor, unless the run wouldn't allow it. If the run wouldn't allow it, the pay better be a hell ofa lot higher than other runs.

QUOTE
2 - Guard aren't paid to kill runner but to guard stuff. As long as they cut off exits, call for backup and release the hounds, they are doing their job. Nobody except maybe Aztechnology and Lofwyr really expect standard guards to step in the line of fire of an enraged troll samurai. YMMV of course.


That's true, but when a troll is bearing down on you, your only option is to take him down. And if the opposition has something that will take the troll down, they have something that will drop the rest of the group like rocks.
Moirdryd
Always a good reason never to be near the troll or be in the process of getting the hell outta dodge when the call for help goes out.

To be fair though you are quite correct. I suppose thats where we hit the realism vs group power factors...

Recent example though my players left the Ork (they dont have a troll) outside to play back up / support. (they were infiltrating a Shiawase installation and you cant even THINK the word Ork in those places). True to good planning they walked in, got the goods and were leaving when it went to hell. The ork saved their asses via grapnel gun so the runners could get away zipline style out of a 25th level window.

But it raises the supplemental Question...

"Do the tank like Orks and Trolls pose a threat to the safety of the rest of the team because thye are so hard?..."


James McMurray
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Why? Didn't they all run for cover? Didn't the HRT concentrate [more] on the troll? Didn't you only give them one really big gun? Isn't the team working together to escape and impede the attackers?

The situation given was that cover couldn't be had. To head for cover was to lose. That was not my scenario, but it was given as "more often than not" what would happen.

It doesn't matter how many big guns the opposition has. The second the troll drops, that gun turns on the rest of th party. Unless it "conveniently" runs out of ammunition justa s the big guy falls.

Of course the team is working together, but in the scenario give, the one that happens "most of the time" evading the security gaurds wasn't an option, the only route through was to come out from behind cover and punch through the gaurds' position.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Moirdryd)
"Do the tank like Orks and Trolls pose a threat to the safety of the rest of the team because thye are so hard?..."

My answer is obviously "yes." Its possible for a GM to work around this, and its possible to split the team so that only the tanks are in the really bad combats. But eventually the whole idea of verisimilitude falls right out the window. Either the guns needed to take the tank down smear the rest of the team onto the pavement, or the tanks never find their combat prowess severely tested.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
The second the troll drops, that gun turns on the rest of the party. Unless it "conveniently" runs out of ammunition just as the big guy falls.

Or the team is able to "defeat" the HTR in the nick of time before the troll is killed.

QUOTE
Either the guns needed to take the tank down smear the rest of the team onto the pavement, or the tanks never find their combat prowess severely tested.

Or each member of a highly trained team only finds the far extents of their powers tested at certain times. Simply using different attack combos on individuals can totally change the outcome. Having an Earth elemental attack the troll while the rest of the guards behave as normal is an example.
James McMurray
Yep, the team can also defeat the HTR in the nick of time. But that too begins to stretch the bounds of believability after a while.

If its an earth elemental, the troll will just ignore it and continue fighting the rest of the enemy. Unless the elemental is higher than 6 force, it will be rolling at most 8 dice. It will not have a reach advantage, so will usually not do incredibly well against the troll.

If it is higher than 6 force, someone else in the party with a decent charisma or a weapon focus will need to jump up and beat it down while the troll just stands there, shooting at other people, and granting a friend in melee bonus to the physad or mage.

If they don't help and the troll is overwhelmed, the group will suddenly find themselve on the receiving end of a high force earth elemental.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Yep, the team can also defeat the HTR in the nick of time. But that too begins to stretch the bounds of believability after a while.

Just how often are you maxing threat? How often does the troll need his life threatened to have fun?

The Earth elemental will be adding a +2 TN to all the Trolls ranged attacks, let him ignore it then. Use a Fire elemental and Engulf.

QUOTE
If they don't help and the troll is overwhelmed, the group will suddenly find themselve on the receiving end of a high force earth elemental.

And then "someone else in the party with a decent charisma or a weapon focus will need to jump up and beat it down".
toturi
QUOTE (Moirdryd)
"Do the tank like Orks and Trolls pose a threat to the safety of the rest of the team because thye are so hard?..."

No, because the (non-troll) mage and rigger could be more difficult targets. In my gaming group, the (immunity to normal weapon) shaman and drone rigger are the people to draw fire from targets which the whole team shoots dead.

Spirits are the responsiblity of the team magician/adept with killing hands, not the mundane troll/ork.
James McMurray
Not very run requires a maxed threat. But when it happens, the remainder of the party is in severe trouble because of the firepower that has to be brought to threaten the troll.

QUOTE
The Earth elemental will be adding a +2 TN to all the Trolls ranged attacks, let him ignore it then.


Not a big deal. Yes, you'll miss a little bit more, but you're still mostly untouchable by your enemy. It just means the fight lasts longer.

QUOTE
Use a Fire elemental and Engulf.

Engulf is nice, especially by fire elementals. But once that fire elemental is done witht he troll, he'll turn on the rest of the group. And if he was capable of dropping the troll, he's more than capable of dropping the rest of the group.

QUOTE
And then "someone else in the party with a decent charisma or a weapon focus will need to jump up and beat it down".


That someone else should have jumped up the moment it became apparent that the troll was outclassed. Or do your teams usually hold back until a member drops before they begin using teamwork and tactics?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
That someone else should have jumped up the moment it became apparent that the troll was outclassed. Or do your teams usually hold back until a member drops before they begin using teamwork and tactics?

No, which is why I don't find it unbelievable for the tank to "just barely" hold back the HRT while the rest of the team carves the way to the exit. Or just for the Killing Hands adept to barely survive the Fire elemental while the Ninja burns karma like mad to knock the missile out of the sky using the gun turret and defaulting to Intelligence (that was a fun one).

QUOTE
But once that fire elemental is done witht he troll, he'll turn on the rest of the group. And if he was capable of dropping the troll, he's more than capable of dropping the rest of the group.

Maybe he couldn't quite drop the troll, eh? Just distract and damage... You know, challenge.

QUOTE
Not a big deal. Yes, you'll miss a little bit more, but you're still mostly untouchable by your enemy. It just means the fight lasts longer.

Which gives the HRT team more time to arrive... Hurry Troll, hurry. You don't want your team to end up as paste.
James McMurray
QUOTE
Which gives the HRT team more time to arrive... Hurry Troll, hurry. You don't want your team to end up as paste.


So you're saying that if the HTR team arrives the runners will be paste? Thank you for reiterating my point.
Kanada Ten
I'm saying that should be the Troll's line of thinking, yes.
James McMurray
Glad we agree. smile.gif
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 15 2005, 08:29 PM)
Standard runs: Secure Jacket 5/3 (concealability 9) + full suit FFBA 4/1 + motorcycle helmet 0/2: total armor rating 7/5 with no layering penalties.

Hoity-toity runs: Armante outfit 5/3 (concealability 12) + full suit FFBA: total armor rating 7/3 with no layering penalties



Have you noticed that the Armante suit can't use all the pieces at the same time? The * marked pieces are incompatible. So the max you can get is either 4/2 or 3/1.

Also, don't tell me your PCs wear a freaking motorcycle helmet at all time when on mission! First of all, IMO you look silly with a helmet on when entering a bar. On second thought, you probably look silly when wearing a motorcycle anywhere but on a motorcycle. It kinds of draws attention to yourself. Also, wouldn't it severely restrict your field of vision and hearing? I've worn such an helmey once or twice and let's just say I wouldn't recommend it as an alternative to an old fashioned military helmet. Or to wearing no helmet at all in an urban setting.

As for the Form fitting body armor ; Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that 'no penalty' policy for layering armor where form fitting is concerned. It's by the book, though. But then I'm not a big fan of the standard for combat pool reduction due to armor period. If it's suppose to reduce mobility, why the hell is it that the more mobile you already are, the less your mobility can be affected by armor? It's madness!

Anyway, either of those issues are not the point in this thread. But luckily for me, my sanity is preserved by the fact that my players don't layer. they never thought about it, I guess, and I don't advertise it. In return my NPCs don't layer either. It's a classic case of a behavior that doesn't really happen in real life, that never happens in movies but that occurs frequently in a RPG because a rule makes it too beneficial without sufficient drawbacks.

This makes Armor 7+ a little less common in my campaigns which explains difference in perception.

QUOTE
That's true, but when a troll is bearing down on you, your only option is to take him down. And if the opposition has something that will take the troll down, they have something that will drop the rest of the group like rocks.


Ah, but then you can shoot him in the head pointblank without cover as I said. Ok, I messed up about bypassing armor + upgrading damage. But bypassing armor alone is not bad.

If you are a guard with pistol 4 and use 4 combat pool against a TN 7...

You have 76.74% odds of scoring 1 sucess or more.

And if it isn't dodged, then a 13 Body Troll rolling against a TN of 9 would need at least 5 success to soak it all. He has 2.52% odds of scoring that many successes or more on his first try. 5.12% if titanium bones and such can still manage to reduce power to 7 or 6.

So if 2 normal guards try this trick, or if the guard has laser sight and recoil compensation that allow him to shoot twice at a TN of 7 (or both!), the troll will face some problems sooner or later. It's simple math. As I said, the guards don't have to kill the troll. Just soften him up. Waste karma pool, inflict light wounds, that sort of thing. It will catch up with him.
Endgame50
QUOTE (Charon)
As for the Form fitting body armor ; Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that 'no penalty' policy for layering armor where form fitting is concerned. It's by the book, though. But then I'm not a big fan of the standard for combat pool reduction due to armor period. If it's suppose to reduce mobility, why the hell is it that the more mobile you already are, the less your mobility can be affected by armor? It's madness!

As an aside, there is ONE and only one penalty for layering FFBA. While combat pools and quickness linked skills are unaffected, your effective quickness for the purposes of movement is.
Moirdryd
The average Ballistics armour sitting at my table is 6 (infact i think all the runners when on a run have it at 6, alot less when out and about elsewhere) and alot of runners tend to be uncaring of Light pistol fire from one or two average joe sec guards, but then Joe Av sec-guard isnt equipped or expecting to be facing off with professional Runners, armed and armoured for the shadows. They are equipped to deal with Mr Unsavory ganger that tries to break in and steal some stuff or Mr Solo-cat burglar (possibley indep shadowrunner) who breaks in through the windown and other such persons just not in the same league as what Pro shadowrunners are.

Oh and one way of balancing against the troll, Flash grenades anyone? Gas grenades or smoke and use some IR imaging (pretty cheap to install into a set of eyes for a corp too) every mega-corp gives its basic boys something a little special because they DO know that Shaowrunners may well hit almost any site, they just dont advertise it because hey, Shadowrunners dont exist, they are a myth an urban legend.
Dawnshadow
Sam Standard Run Armour: Vest with Plates, Secure Long Coat, Titanium Bones, Armoured Arms (+1/+2)..
total armour: 8/7

M.W. Adept: Vest with Plates, Secure Long Coat. (Improved Invisibility sustaining focus.)
total armour: 6/4

Fully Geared Out:
Sam: Light Security Armour, FFBA (rating 10 nonconductive), bones, arms..
total armour: 10/8

M.W. Adept: Heavy Security Armour, FFBA, security helmet (Improved Invisibilty sustaining focus.)
total armour: 10/8

When magic is a non-issue (and the right others are around), the Sam has his elven shaman girlfriend throw her force 4 sustaining focus armour spell on him. If there's serious trouble, she throws a higher one and holds it from back. If there's really serious trouble, then he gets the force 10+ armour spell from the party mage.

Does he take much damage? No. But that's more a product of the 11 body dice then the fact that he's got so much armour. The GM has stopped giving us runs when we aren't getting shot at with solely APDS. We're shooting back with the same usually... but... it's still APDS flying our way.

The adept on the other hand took deadly damage last fight... but that was strictly because of bad tactics on my part. He tried to take out one too many people attacking and wound up with the friends in melee crippling him. House rule was if you take them out entirely in the first dice roll, they don't count for friends in melee.. Fight went something like:

Adept kills 3 spider-drones attacking mage.
Adept kills 4 spider-drones that attack him.
Adept kills 2 spider-drones attacking other Adept, and damages 1 spider-drone.
Adept kills 2 spider-drones of four attacking him, and takes 2 doses of Deus' cutters.
Adept goes down to dead at the end of the round, and only survives because he's nice to his ally spirit so she healed him.
Adept spends 2 months in the hospital, gaesas a point of magic power, and gives the Ally spirit another point of force when he gets out.

Well, that's including aftermath, but you get the idea..

The sam walked out of the fight with I think a moderate wound. But then had to dangle off the ramp of their escape craft when the rigger got fried by dumpshock when a drone jumped into one rotor. End result? Mage took deadly damage (burned a magic point entirely) and went blind casting the pair of spells to keep us from becoming 'ugly messy metal splotch on the Arcology'..
Charon
QUOTE (Endgame50 @ Feb 16 2005, 04:11 AM)
As an aside, there is ONE and only one penalty for layering FFBA. While combat pools and quickness linked skills are unaffected, your effective quickness for the purposes of movement is.

Hum, so Armor Jacket + FBFFA = 9 ballistic, so a human mage with QUI 5 is down to to QUI 1 for movement purpose? Good catch.

In fact, after reading carefully, it states that FFA doesn't count for calculating the combat pool loss but it says nothing else. It doesn't talk about the penalty for layering armor which are distinct from combat pool loss (which are distinct from layering since they apply even without it). That means the FFA would also count toward determining a penalty to QUI and QUI related skill test when layering.

There is alo that line from SR3 : "Generally, only a jacket or coat can be layered over clothing-style armor. Much more and the character starts looking like a punching bag)"

So the FFA mix with armor jacket pauses no additional problem, but wearing FFA in addition to armored clothing does, though no specific rules are provided. IMO, wearing FFA + Armored clothing makes you look a little more 'bloated' than the unarmored guest at the cocktail party. The logical thing to do is lower the concealability of the ensemble. It shouldn't just be piece with the lowest concelability, it should be the lowest piece minus a penalty. The concealbility of the top layer minus the ballistic rating of the underlying layer strikes me as a good possibility.

BTW : The fact that a QUI 9 PC wouldn't be slowed at all by a combined ballistic rating of 9 while a slower PC would be slowed in reverse proportion to his speed is a little mind-boggling though. It's like saying that if ordinary me wore two layers of armor I would be severely restricted while Maurice Greene would still be able to run 100M under 10s. I think instead of using QUI to gauge when penalty should be applied, a flat rate should be used. 3,5 or 7 for example, depending how heavily the GM wants to see his player armored. I think 5 is a good compromise, it's actually an improvement for many PCs.
Fortune
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
FFBA (rating 10 nonconductive)


There is a limitation on Armor Mods, in that the armor can only accept modification of a rating up to either it's Ballistic or Impact rating. According to canon, FFBA could have one modification of raing 4 and another of rating 1.
James McMurray
QUOTE
Have you noticed that the Armante suit can't use all the pieces at the same time? The * marked pieces are incompatible. So the max you can get is either 4/2 or 3/1.


I hadn't noticed that. The troll in question will still have ballistic of at least 7. He';ll either be wearing a security helmet or he'll have bone lacing / orthoskin.

QUOTE
Also, don't tell me your PCs wear a freaking motorcycle helmet at all time when on mission! First of all, IMO you look silly with a helmet on when entering a bar. On second thought, you probably look silly when wearing a motorcycle anywhere but on a motorcycle. It kinds of draws attention to yourself. Also, wouldn't it severely restrict your field of vision and hearing? I've worn such an helmey once or twice and let's just say I wouldn't recommend it as an alternative to an old fashioned military helmet. Or to wearing no helmet at all in an urban setting.


The runners in my game wear them at any time when they won't be in a social situation and are on a run. A motorcycle helmet can be made completely of tinted plastic. Made that way, it would prevent those pesky security cameras from catching your face, and also provide protection when the gaurds surround you with clubs and Rodney King your ass.

QUOTE
And if it isn't dodged...


Even if it isn't dodged, the troll still has 2 ballistic armor from lacing and orthoskin. He's got a halfway decent chance of soaking it to nothing.

And your TNs listed don't take into account the many modifers that come into play in every combat round I've ever seen: cover, target running, shooter walking/running, visibility, etc. The shot will rarely be at TN 7. Usually it will be closer to 9, and quite often it will be 11+.
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray)
And your TNs listed don't take into account the many modifers that come into play in every combat round I've ever seen: cover, target running, shooter walking/running, visibility, etc. The shot will rarely be at TN 7. Usually it will be closer to 9, and quite often it will be 11+.

Hey, a few post ago I said that guards mostly have to cut of exit, call backup and release the hound while maintaining cover. They don't have to flush out runners, that's the HTR team's job.

You say : you don't have a choice when a Troll is charging your position.

I say : well then he is in the open and getting close range. Try shooting him in the head.

You say : But he usually has cover...

Should I answer : Well then the guard maintains cover, call for backup, cuts exit etc. ?

The Runners are the ones who ultimately have to get out of the buildings, not the guards!

We're running in circle, here. But if your troll does break cover and tries to flush out the guards, a situation where one can shoot him in the head point blank will often occurs. And when it does, my stats apply : Troll is highly likely to get wounded and waste Karma Pool. You say he has 2 point of armor in augmentation that can't be bypassed? I provided you with the odds of getting 5+ success on TN 7 (9-2) with 13 dice : 5.12%. It's not that high. Unless you can drop it to 5, you don't roll that many sucesses.

Look, if you never manage to get to shoot at your runner's head point blank, you're not trying hard enough!
James McMurray
My group doesn't use the bypassing armor called shot rules. We prefer to play by the rules as written instead of introdcing random rules that only appear in a FAQ. So a shot to the head is rarely going to occur. The only time we ever use called shots is to target smaller parts of vehicles.

We also almost never see any shots being made at their base TN because of movement, cover, etc.

In your example the troll doesn't have to break cover. He just has to poke around the cover enough to shoot a gaurd twice, or shoot 2 gaurds once each. Then either security retreats and the troll repeats his move and shoot, or security stays to shoot at the troll, in which case he has cover.
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray)
In your example the troll doesn't have to break cover. He just has to poke around the cover enough to shoot a gaurd twice, or shoot 2 gaurds once each. Then either security retreats and the troll repeats his move and shoot, or security stays to shoot at the troll, in which case he has cover.

If we gonna get technical, you'd better flush out the guards with a grenade 'cause the technique you suggest is gonna take forever and the HTR will be there soon enough.

Beside, to poke around the cover you have to walk up to it first. You're in the open then.
BitBasher
QUOTE
I provided you with the odds of getting 5+ success on TN 7 (9-2) with 13 dice : 5.12%. It's not that high. Unless you can drop it to 5, you don't roll that many sucesses.
Man there's no way your guard will get a reasonable number of sucesses in that scenario. The guard is behind cover, with the troll charging him. The guard's base TN is 4 plus at least 2 from his cover and at least 1 because the troll is running. That's even assuming lighting is perfect. That puts the TN at 7 not counting making the called shot or smartlink which is TN5 with a smartlink and no called shot or 9 for the called shot with a smartlink. at a TN9 the guard is lucky to get a success on 4 dice plus 4 combat pool. It's not even reliable.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Charon)
Beside, to poke around the cover you have to walk up to it first. You're in the open then.

The situation will either be:

1) The gaurds are around a corner where the troll can't see them but can reach a firing position capable of targetting them.
2) The gaurds are in view but behind cover
3) The gaurds are out in the open
4) The gaurds are around a corner where the troll can't reach a firing position capable of targetting them.

In scenario 1 the troll walks up to the corner and shoots. He has never come out from behind cover where the gaurds can see him, because their visbility is as restricted as his.

In scenario 2 the troll just stays behind his cover and shoots.

In scenario 3 the troll stays behind his cover and shoots.

In scenario 3 the troll moves up as far as he can without popping into the open. If he knows where the enemy is he may go ahead and lob a grenade over there, preferably via a smartlinked, range findered under-barrel launcher.
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 16 2005, 11:58 AM)
1) The gaurds are around a corner where the troll can't see them but can reach a firing position capable of targetting them.

In a paintball game, I'm guessing I get almost a 1/3 of my kills by popping out of complete cover while a target is on the move and in the open. (EDIT : Okay, so 1/3 is really a stat pulled out of my a$$ as I'm really sure how many I get this way on average. Since these kills tend to stand out more in your memory due to the 'gotcha factor' it's probably a little less than I'd like to think but still quite a few every session)

Barring a complete ambush, assuming they know where I am and are maneuvering to kill me, I get the drop on these players usually because

A : I heard them move
B : I've been told or signaled what they were doing by someone else
C : Excessive cover fire from buddies tipped me off. You don't waste bullet for the fun of it when the target is out of sight unless you have a good reason to. It costs money, you know! Not to mention the dangers of an empty clip.
Charon
QUOTE (BitBasher)
It's not even reliable.

There is no reliable way for a security guard to kill any shadowrunner specialized in combat. That's not the point. I'm just talking about challenging the PCs. As a GM I don't have to succeed on every tactic I use against the PC. I just have to succeed once.

James McMurray
QUOTE (Charon)
In a paintball game, I'm guessing I get almost a 1/3 of my kills by popping out of complete cover while a target is on the move and in the open.

That is a very realistic occurrence for a paintball match, but it won't happen much in the game, because if a security gaurd pops out from behin total cover he will be killed: either by the troll or by the troll's friends. There's a big difference between paint ball tactics and tactics used when you don't want to die.
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 16 2005, 01:20 PM)
That is a very realistic occurrence for a paintball match, but it won't happen much in the game, because if a security gaurd pops out from behin total cover he will be killed: either by the troll or by the troll's friends. There's a big difference between paint ball tactics and tactics used when you don't want to die.

Thing is, you don't have a choice. The troll is coming to kill you anyway.

Sure I can have the guard cower and cry for mommy. Hey, I sometime do. It's good for a giggle.

But at least some of these guys will use what little training they have to try maneuvers that are up to 99% likely to get them killed since they realize that the current scenario is 100% likely to get them killed.

One of the advantage of using obviously non-lethal methods (say tasers) while also carrying lethal weaponry is that the guard are less likely to play hero. Suddenly they aren't as likely to do something that is 90% likely to get them killed if they feel that the current scenario is only 50% likely to get them killed.

Of course combattant don't have odds in their head. They go with gut feeling, but the result is roughly the same.

James McMurray
The troll is only coming to kill you if you make him come to kill you. That's why fleeing is a good idea. The original scenario was talking about low professional rating security gaurs.Low professional anythings run away when they find themselves facing a troll with bullets bouncing off. High professionalism gaurds will use tactics that don't get them killed: i.e. not popping out of cover so they can take a bullet in the chest on the off chance that they'll be able to shoot the troll in the head.
Charon
Ah well, guards who will abandon their post are really low threats.

Security guards working for a megacorporation are the equivalent of grunt soldiers working for a nation. They shouldn't abandon their post. Not only do they have equivalent training, they might have equivalent patriotism! ("Renreku takes care of my family and I owe it my honorable services") They won't charge entrenched runners (that's not their job) but they will cut off retreat and if runner must pass through a choke point they control they will fight back and hold their position.

So they will often get in the way of runner in such a fashion that the Troll is gonna have to flush them out. At which point popping out of cover, thus risking a bullet in the chest, in order to shoot a runner who is on open ground and moving toward a spot from which he'll be able to kill them all, is EXACTLY the kind of risk you have to take if you are a well trained soldier.

Think of it as GI holding a bridge against a determined and well equipped commando. The GIs are in over their head but they'll most likely do their very best to hold the bridge nonetheless, including risking getting shot at. Well, especially that.
mfb
yeah. megacorp guards aren't Joe Blow Rentacops; they're soldiers, and they act as such. now, guards for megacorporate holdings? rentacops.
BitBasher
Actually the prefessional reatings and definitions thereof do not support the fact that most, or even many security guards are close to any kind of professional soldier. IIRC. YMMV. IOAH.
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