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Moirdryd
Okay, to cease from Hi-Jacking the Mundanes out the Box thread, i`ve opened this one. Serious question though. I`d especially like to hear from all the Long running GM`s i know are sitting out there as they`ve seem (almost) everything i`m sure.

To the question at hand. Power Levels and Game Balance. How do we each gauge these at our SR gaming tablem ? What `game breakers` have you seen? How have you responded? What crushing effects have we seen high Karma pools deliver? and Do Adepts really taste like Chicken?

Just a few to get everyone ranting smile.gif
toturi
I do nothing. Apart from making sure I use the appropriate modifiers, I let the dice fall where they may. Afterall, I have potentially a whole world to throw at my PCs.
Moirdryd
Thats pretty much my angle toturi. Thats also the benefit of having a group of experianced roleplayers who`ve gamed across most of the genres out there. The world is almost always wide open in my gamesand alot of the Uber power that can be gained doesnt seem to help much when your SO is seriously pissed at you and you really need her help.
Clyde
I've lately begun gaming for a group that's gone for most of the high powered edges out there. My response has been to send them on runs against higher powered opposition, especially if the plot sets it up so that just killing everyone won't help. Even so, it's been quite a challenge.

However, I've been doing some hard thinking in the wake of SOTA: 2064 and realized that all along I've made a few assumptions without really doing any solid thinking.

Firstly, I'd always followed the conventional wisdom that corporations can't or won't shell out the money to put cyberware (especially reflex enahncers) in ordinary security types. Maybe that used to be true, but it just plain doesn't make sense by 2064. Street samurai are just as quick as always, adepts are faster than ever, and even magicians all seem to have their reflexes cranked up with spells. If cutting a few personnel and shelling out some extra capital are necessary then the corps will go ahead and spend the money. It's not like they're poor after all.

Secondly, I'd always played things as if the shadowrunners were going after a target that was unware there was a Shadowrun going on. Certainly, the few published adventures I'd read had been set up that way. Reading about corporate spy agencies in SOTA:2064 really threw that notion out the window. It certainly seems silly that Ares would have some awesome prototype weapon lying around ready to use, but security is just business as usual. From now on, corporate security's on a sliding scale. If they get clues that a run might happen they'll beef up security to deal with it.

As for judging power levels, I tend to look to the "end result" stats: Initiative, Body, Combat Pool, core skills, Ballistic and Impact Armor and amount of damage dealt. I'll try to balance out enemies with a sufficient amount of each to keep things somewhat challenging.
Tanka
Actually, before shelling out for 'ware, they'll shell out for drugs. Combat drugs are just as effective as 'ware (for boosting Initiative and Reaction) and a hell of a lot cheaper.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 13 2005, 07:54 AM)
I do nothing. Apart from making sure I use the appropriate modifiers, I let the dice fall where they may. Afterall, I have potentially a whole world to throw at my PCs.

My view exactly.

I have never seen a "game-breaker". Nothing breaks my game.
I'll run a damn enjoyable game even if all the PCs turn into great dragons.
akarenti
QUOTE (tanka)
Actually, before shelling out for 'ware, they'll shell out for drugs. Combat drugs are just as effective as 'ware (for boosting Initiative and Reaction) and a hell of a lot cheaper.


Yeah. It costs like 15,000 nuyen.gif for Boosted Reflexes (1) and like 50 nuyen.gif for a dose of Kamikaze. And Kamikaze grants Pain Resistance as well! Thankyou, Mitsuhama, thank you.

I like the guidelines in Corporate Download as far as security levels go. They aren't exactly exhaustive, but they're flavorfull and a good indication of what the PCs at least should expect from the average security troop.

After a certain point, knocking over a little A or AA research complex should be far too easy for a group of runners. I mean, experienced runners cost more, why would a Johnson hire UberTeamX if any respectable runner crew could do it? Once you get to a certain point, it just make sense that the team would be hired for more dangerous jobs: a run on a S-K research complex in the SOX should challenge just about any seasoned group.

I think a lot of balance issues can be head off with preparation. There are tons of different security setups described in Canon. When regular security troops aren't a threat anymore, there are always bound Elementals, or drones. And there are always non-corp runs. Anyone ever had a group try to break into the Vatican Library?
Glyph
I think that as a group gets better, they should be offered more challenging (and higher-paying) jobs. That is my preferred method of game balance. But I don't agree with the notion of adjusting all encounters to match the runners' "power level". To me, a mall security guard isn't going to go from pistols: 3 to pistols: 6 just because the runners got tougher. Similarly, if a group of newbie runners get too greedy and decide to go after something out of their league, the Azzie Leopard Guards aren't going to suddenly turn from an elite group into an average one.

When PCs get more powerful, you can use more than similarly-boosted opponents to challenge them. You can use common-sense security measures, common-sense tactics, hostile environments, hordes of low-powered enemies, and situations that require subtlety.
mfb
indeed.

and, hey. lest people complain that a few high-end badasses taking on a horde of low-end mooks is unrealistic, remember Blackwater's stand in Najaf.
BitBasher
QUOTE (mfb)
indeed.

and, hey. lest people complain that a few high-end badasses taking on a horde of low-end mooks is unrealistic, remember Blackwater's stand in Najaf.

Or look at the ending attortion ratio for the real life stand in Black Hawk Down.
Moirdryd
The things i write and plan are normally designed to challenge the runners truly. But then as we play `Open world` fashion things are kept respectable to how they would be regardless of player power level.

Even as they stand my player group preferes to hit corp sites when there is less of a chance of the HTR team being about, or fewer sec mages on duty, all the stuff that requires leg work and planning. My balancing factor often comes in the form of such things as those HTR teams and other surprises and the runs are never easy (they decided to jump in at the deep end and so far are still swimming). But it does encourage them to work around the situation and act more and more professionally in doing the job. Doesnt matter to them that they could wipe probably a couple of a HTR easy in a combat round. They dont want to chance it.
Large Mike

The only way a player could ruin the balance of my game is by taking the focus from the other players.

That being said, I, as a GM, don't enjoy super high-powered games. There's no challenge to the players, and if there is, it's like watching anime (please don't start on the anime) where my suspension of disbilief goes *right* out the window. And this is from a veteran shadowrun GM. I'd like to think my suspension of disbelief is fairly well developed.
Sren
In the games I've played in, the power level of our opponents was as much under the control of the characters, and to a lesser extent, the players, than it was in the GMs control. Not that the GM decided whether or not to challenge us, but as shadowrunners, we could sometimes pick and choose our jobs, and when we had a rigger with an aircraft, running was always an option. So balancing the power level of the game to give us combat based challenges was in in-character and to a lesser extent player-based choice. The characters only chose to go on tougher missions because the rewards were greater, and such were also more fun for us as players. But we always had the option of choosing milk-runs, but we only took those jobs as story notes (rarely RP through them) as they never paid more than basic living expenses and weren't dangerous enough to warrant karma.

Likewise, if we chose to take a job against or initiate a run against something that posed a serious combat threat to the group, the GM didn't hold back. If we wanted military grade gear, then we'd have to pull it from the cold, dead, hands of military personnel, and they'd likely be skilled in its use (and might use up al the ammo tying to kill us).

We were also challenged during less dangerous runs in our legwork. We played in eight to twelve-hour sessions, and more than half that time was spent in RPing legwork, which offered a much different challenge. This is how we went along with the saying "a successful run is when you win without rolling initiative." In which case, the power level of opponents is meaningless anyways, as we didn't confront them.

We did have a really high-powered group; 200-400 kp each, and anywhere from one to fifteen players for any session (I did a one-on-one with the GM once on a holiday, and we had a couple two-player sessions, but average was six to eight players), and we had contacts that could get us almost any gear we wanted (anything less than military grade weapons and armor), so real combat challenges would have had to been kept rare to maintain some believability; as in, every rebel group/gang/corp security force should have cyber zombies with rotary cannons firing APDS round, with missile launchers for backup weapons and be wearing milspec hardened armor just to frighten/kill the characters, but if we were deliberately attacking a military-protected target, or a AAA corp facility of critical importance to the corp, thats the type of thing we should expect.

Another thing this GM did, was when he planned security, he never planned for a weakness to exploit. He reasoned that if he could see the weakness in a security plan, then a security professional could see it, and it would be fixed, so we had to pick soft targets, or prepare for a month's worth of IC legwork to find a weakness the GM didn't see (or brute force if we got desperate enough).

In the end, the power level of the characters didn't affect game balance so much as the IC actions of the characters or decisions of the players. Game balance was more on our shoulder's than the GMs, and that made sense (at least to me) for the setting. No number on a piece of paper has the power to break your game, unless you let it.

Thanks for bringing back memories.
S'Ren
Wounded Ronin
I guess my GM-fu is abysmally weak, as karma pool broke my brain, apparently permanently.

KaOs
One of my runners, a Razorguy, has always tried to get game breaking cyber ware putting him miles ahead of everyone else. So I started having the enemy use viruses that were transmitted by COM frequency and the like. At one point in the middle of a really funny adventure he wound up running around with his arm locked in a very rude gesture. The servos in it all refused to move and he kept slamming his arm into doors and such. It was a hoot and he spent far more then I thought he would have on repairing it and making sure stuff like this doesn't happen anymore.

Other things I've done is when someone has a really sweet piece of hardware that I find is really being more of a hassle for me, I have one of the corps either A) Try and snag it for research (if it's game breaking, it's big), or B) notice that the ammo for 'Weapon X" Is really popular in 'Sector X" so they ramp up the price. It makes the game breakers much less of an annoyance and more of a plot element.
toturi
QUOTE (KaOs)
has always tried to get game breaking cyber ware putting him miles ahead of everyone else

There are game breaking cyberware? Not in Canon, I hope.
KaOs
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (KaOs @ Feb 14 2005, 02:49 PM)
has always tried to get game breaking cyber ware putting him miles ahead of everyone else

There are game breaking cyberware? Not in Canon, I hope.

You know, that was one of my biggest mistakes. He bought the M&M book and started asking me if he could buy things while I was busy making a quick run for a gaming night I didn't think I'd be GMing. So I said sure, just double the price and we'll pretend you got it during downtime between runs.

Dumbest thing I've done as a GM ever.
toturi
Nothing in M & M is broken cyber.gif , at least not once it was errata-ed.

What the hell was in there that you couldn't handle? eek.gif
DocMortand
Eh, I am beginning to figure out what I need to be able to kill PCs, and I try to stack the deck so that I'm close, but not over the top. But I keep my tech level down (on all sides, not just the PCs). If I raise the tech level, I make sure that I keep accurate count on what the NPCs have, because the PCs will get a chance to get it.

This is how I nearly killed the group by having a Panther show up for the first time.

Now they have it. -_- Owch...

Also, if you stack the deck too well, and you tend to let the dice fall as they may, then settle for capturing the PCs and do the "tag and release" program - One of Lina's chars got captured (suffered a D wound and collapsed while staging a distraction for the main group), and now has 1 essence worth of Mysterious Cyberware and a weeks worth of amnesia so that he has no idea that anything is different.

*shrug* I suppose I could have killed him, but now he has A) more chance to RP the new wrinkles in the char, B) Causing paranoia in the group, and C) He might be useful in later missions in the arc I have planned...
Crimson Jack
Hmm, never had a "game breaker"... not really sure what that implies. Sounds more like a "Temporary GM Mind Fart".

I have run into slight issues with running a magic-heavy group though. When there's one awakened in a group, there's never a problem. When there's three, there is a propensity for them to not only cover each others' backs with spells, but also those of the non-awakened. They've all been running together for quite a few years, so they're pretty good at watching each others' backs. At times... it sometimes feels that the challenge isn't worth their salt, however when I talk to them post-game I normally hear how they were really worried about their plan failing. So, while I was thinking about their enjoyment of the difficulty level, they were sweating things out on their side of the screen.
DocMortand
Hey, if they're sweating bullets and took more than an hour to come up with a plan of action I feel I've done my job right. smile.gif
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (DocMortand)
Hey, if they're sweating bullets and took more than an hour to come up with a plan of action I feel I've done my job right. smile.gif

Indeed. smile.gif
Wounded Ronin
I don't understand this. Few other people seem to have experienced what they would describe as a gamebreaker.

I must not be thinking about the game on the same fundamental level as the rest of you. There must be some reason that most of you have no trouble inflicting damage on the PCs once the karma pools get high but I do.

Therefore, it would make sense if I asked this question: if you have a powerful PC, how do you cause them injury, inconvienience, and/or death? Or rather, what is your favorite way?
Crimson Jack
Normally, in my experience, players get off easy when I don't pay attention to ALL of the rules. For example, if I don't remember to make my rolls for cyber/bio damage, I'm potentially making things too easy. Same goes for magic loss, fully thinking out critter powers, making certain to implement all modifiers, etc. There's a lot of ways of making things tough I find.
BitBasher
QUOTE
I must not be thinking about the game on the same fundamental level as the rest of you. There must be some reason that most of you have no trouble inflicting damage on the PCs once the karma pools get high but I do.
If the challenge of the game is sufficient then the acumulation of high karma pools takes a LONG time becuase they should be having to burn points to survive when it hits the fan. In my 300 karma game a while back the highest karma pool was I believe 11.

QUOTE
Therefore, it would make sense if I asked this question: if you have a powerful PC, how do you cause them injury, inconvienience, and/or death? Or rather, what is your favorite way?
You limit their growh of power before it becomes a problem. Injury, death and inconvenience should tbe the road to power, not somehting that happens to you once you get it.

Then after 300-400 or so karma, the PC's retire. At that point they have earned enough cash, and have enough enemies they likely cant lead a normal life and retirement and relocation are far more appealing then not knowing when the next hiter will come along.
Large Mike

Actually, earlier I lied. I did once encounter a game breaker. I had an especially whiny PC that badgered me possibly after drugging me, because I don't know what I was thinking when I allowed it, but she had a level 3 dragon contact. A fixer dragon. Who another GM she was running with set some bad precedents of abusable NPC.

So, I reaquired my brain and told her it simply wouldn't do. A hissy fit and her angry boyfriend later, she still has the dragon. I try speaking logic, telling her it's ruining the game, same results as above. Finally, after about 5 monthes of suffering through this, the Game Master gets angry. (Compound this with the fact that she and her boyfriend were starting to ruin the whole game for me, not just running with that group, I was starting to not want to play, and I'd lost a player or two over this young lady.)

So, I have her dragon contact killed in an inter-dragon squabble. "By the way, what kind of friend for life would you be if you just let this lie? At least investigate. I can dig up some obscure rules to enforce it if I have to." (I normally detest being so heavy-handed, and never have again after that, but you gotta do what you gotta do, and sometimes what you gotta do ain't pretty.)

In the end she attempted to stage a small scale war on an initiatory group of dragon-killers (the statistics for which I later burned to prevent re-use) while several of the other players had ratted her out to the intiatory groups backing megacorp as well as the police. So, in a grand spectacal of television crews, Firewatch teams, mages and the Stars best and best armed, the Orbital Cow was dropped. The rest of the group unanimously voted to not invite the pair of them ever again, and a valuable lesson was learned.

Dragon-sized friends means you inheret dragon-sized problems.

(And yes, what was done could be considered poor GMing, but my track record speaks for itself, and I stand by what I did.)
RedmondLarry
Hmmm. Power level and Balance. Lots of things come to mind. Here are some of them.

I've been in three campaigns where characters were retired at about 400 earned Karma. This has been the point where Karma Pool (and lesser stats) have made it difficult for the GM to challenge the characters on a regular basis. In addition, if the risk of death is to remain real (it has to), players know they can lose a 400-Karma character. None of them want to do that. They have more fun playing a new character at that point, one for which walking through the barrens is still exciting, and the player is again willing to have their character risk death to achieve something. Therefore, none of my advice below has been tested with 500+ Karma characters. YMMV

Characters that get a reputation for succeeding on hard jobs will be offered bigger pay to take on even tougher assignments. A few failures will lower their reputation and they'll be offered lesser difficulty and lesser pay. Therefore, most jobs should have some challenge. It's your job as a GM to select runs that will fit this rule.

Tasks that are no longer a challenge shouldn't take up playing time. My players have gone through the trouble of arranging travel to Denver and Chicago so many times that they'd get bored if I made them plan their next trip in detail. So I don't. Finding transportation now takes 2 to 5 minutes of play time, and is only unreliable if it needs to be for the plot. Getting a safe house is easy. Getting another cell phone is easy. Transfering money is easy. Getting public information off the matrix is easy. Getting building maps from the city's archives is easy. Walking into a bar and picking a fight has the same outcome 217 out of 218 times, and nothing needs to be rolled for those 217 times. Even though the rule book has a hundred pages devoted to things we could roll for that fight, we don't have to do it that way.

Not all challenges are affected by Karma Pool. An ethical challenge or picking the lesser of two evils can go a long way toward making a challenging adventure. Some adventures can be disturbing and some gratifying.

Remind the players that death is near. If the players know the GM is going to go easy on them if they run into trouble, then they feel it has no real challenge, and therefore they get no satisfaction.

A balanced run has some opposition that is weaker than the team, some that is equal to the team, and perhaps some that is more powerful than the team. If you're designing your own run then you're not done if you haven't made it a challenge.
James McMurray
Applying combat modifiers always seems to have a good effect.

Having hoards of weenies alongside a couple/few badasses does a lot. The weenies either draw fire or they slowly sap away combat pool and give light wounds here and there.

In this weekend's game the party was severely challenged by a troll street sam + elf mage combination. The elf was mainly just giving spell defense dice and sustaining a physical barrier. With 7 barrier rating, 6 armor, and a 13 soaking body the troll was almost impossible to hurt.

Against melee types, adding as many weenies as you can next to the big cheese can really screw the PC's day. Just getting three extra guys puts the character's base target number at 7 without factoring in reach. It also lowers the enemies' base TN to 1. Even characters with only a 4 skill and 4 combat pool can scare the crap out of the 9 dice physad.
Wounded Ronin
Hmm, thanks for the advice guys. I shall take it to heart.
Weredigo
QUOTE
Power Levels and Game Balance. How do we each gauge these at our SR gaming tablem ?


I set a PC's Power level by "How much Nuyen is on thier head?" and by "Who's coming to collect it"
If it's in the hundreds, null threat, every punk with a predator will be after them but the "professionals/legends" won't bother with it
the Thousands to Ten thousands Every punk with a predator plus The Professionals, but not the Legends will have an interest in collecting
Hundred Thousands, Every punk with a predator ,The Professionals, plus The Legends will have an interest in Collecting.
Million Nuyen and Up. Every punk with a predator will definitely have an interest. The professionals will consider it too dangerous, Legends will consider it too time consuming.
mfb
one way to challenge powerful characters is to cut down on their planning time. a relatively easy job becomes exponentially more difficult if you don't have time to plan ahead. it makes sense in-game, too; who do you go to when you've got a job that needs to be done right now--the street-level newbies, or the crew that's been running together for the last decade?
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Weredigo @ Feb 14 2005, 02:04 PM)
I set a PC's Power level by "How much Nuyen is on thier head?"  and by "Who's coming to collect it" 
If it's in the hundreds, null threat, every punk with a predator will be after them but the "professionals/legends" won't bother with it
the Thousands to Ten thousands Every punk with a predator plus The Professionals, but not the Legends will have an interest in collecting
Hundred Thousands, Every punk with a predator ,The Professionals, plus The Legends will have an interest in Collecting.
Million Nuyen and Up.  Every punk with a predator will definitely have an interest.  The professionals will consider it too dangerous, Legends will consider it too time consuming.

Interesting concept. It looks like you have a little bell curve distribution of interest there.

I like to think of the threat level not as how much damage I can do to the PCs, but how hard they have to work (legwork, planning, stealth, coverup, etc.) to get the job done. It is not like a dungeon crawl where the PCs have to fight past every monster to get the priceless artifact, it is like the perfect combination of planning and execution. And your job as GM is to have everyone that "opposes" the PCs try to do their job perfectly (namely preventing the plan from going off well if it goes off at all).

There are enough ways for this to happen to an experienced runner, let alone a noobie wannabe ganger, that I seldom find the need to tweak my NPCs.

Never forget to add situational modifiers to your PCs rolls. The limited lighting associated with a nighttime office hinders the electronics roll when they can't see the colors of the wires as much as it does the ranged attack.
Westiex
QUOTE
So, I reaquired my brain and told her it simply wouldn't do. A hissy fit and her angry boyfriend later, she still has the dragon. I try speaking logic, telling her it's ruining the game, same results as above. Finally, after about 5 monthes of suffering through this, the Game Master gets angry.


Or what I would have done is have the level 3 dragon contact ask for a favour or two, it works both way. So the character asks for quite a bit of hard to find gear? The dragon comes back a couple of months later and asks pretty please would you do me a favour and acquire a certain item for me? This just before said dragon has his teeth cleaned, giving the point that nothing is free, espically when a wizworm is involved.

Or weren't they told the third rule of shadowrunning: Never deal with a dragon.

On a further note, someone, sooner or later, will notice that the PC is involved with a dragon and will ask for a favour of their own. Or take out the PC in question because the dragon is a rival of theirs. Or half a dozen other reasons that will get the PC in hot drek ... that they can't just walk out of.

QUOTE
What? You're not returning the calls of <insert name of lvl 3 contact dragon here>
Moirdryd
I`ve mentioned it elsewhere, but heck i`ll join the chorus. Non-combat game devices are certainly good ways of challenging those kill beast chars. I think alot of the SR novels out there as well as chunks of shadow talk are good inspirations for how to keep the players interested and on their toes, even at the silly high Karma levels. Mind games and mysteries are also fun, alot of making these work does lie in char background but also if you`ve got a team who`s survived that long there should be plenty of little things from the past that can haunt them. Having said all that I do personally have a habit of conjuring multi-thread plots and stories for my players to get involved with, game regardless.

Oh..and the fun that could be had with a lev3 Dragon contact. I dont think any of my players are that foolish, they know me too well.

Side note: How do you guys out there handle Foci taken from the bodies of mages and shamans the players nail during game? as they can give out some serious nuyen. Besides the semi obvious Ritual Magics that could be used...

Weredigo
QUOTE
(And yes, what was done could be considered poor GMing, but my track record speaks for itself, and I stand by what I did.)

Well you tried the diplomatic approach twice and it didn't work. not only that you lost players as well... I say the poor slot had it coming.
mfb
heh, yeah, i don't think it's really call a dragon your level 3 contact. you're his contact--not the other way around.
tisoz
QUOTE (Moirdryd)
Side note: How do you guys out there handle Foci taken from the bodies of mages and shamans the players nail during game? as they can give out some serious nuyen. Besides the semi obvious Ritual Magics that could be used...

You mean using ritual sorcery to sustain a spell for a while? How about quickening? Tattoo magic seema tailor made for a GM.

Use specific spell foci or spell category foci. They seem like a waste of karma to bond.

Have them be in a form the PC wouldn't like carrying. Wrong gender items, ones that scream MAGE, gaudy, unfashionable items. Large stone phallus. Large items because the donor didn't need tohide them, in fact flaunting them gave him a sense of power over his cohorts.

Items that don't fit. Shoes, gloves, hats, rings. Underwear, no one likes wearing used underwear. Just think if the PC gets found carrying someone elses underwear? And they had time to loot them from the dead NPC that probably evacuated his bowels?

Items that are frail and the PC should fear will be destroyed. Destroy them in the attack.

Don't allow time to loot. Have some spirits go loose/free and occupy the PC as reinforcements or authorities close in.
Grinder
Out of my experience i can say, that it's not that unbalancing when a pc loots a dead spellslinger and finds one or two nuyen-worth foci (and noone cares how they look like!). There are so many ways to spend your money that it will be burnt very soon.
As long as the amount of nuyen is below a million or so. And the chars don't have access to a delta-clinic. wink.gif
Charon
I love D&D, but SR doesn't work like that. There is no real balance between character (outside of available ressources to starting character).

It's not like D&D where every class is supposed to be roughly as useful over the course of a typical Dungeon (which essentially is a lot of traps and monsters and the very occasional social challenge). That's why even a bard, a social character if there is one, is actually almost as useful in a fight as a fighter or wizard. Classes are reasonably balanced against each other.

Zoom to SR and it's not like that at all. There's no class and since creating a PC is a 'Do it yourself' method, it's quite possible to create a character that is far from optimized.

But it needs not be an issue in a standard team. SR is a game of specialists. Maybe the Decker is completely outclassed in a fight when compared to a Street Sam. But then the Street Sam can't even jack in the Matrix, much less compete there.

Now, maybe the Decker isn't as good at his job as the Street Sam is at his (Due to roleplaying VS Maximizing issues at creation). But as long as there is only one Decker and one Street Sam, it's all good. In both cases, the player must accept that his PC will be drastically less useful than the other characters on some occasion and sometime on whole session. In exchange, there should be situation where your PC is the star of the show. This is a situation that is much less common in D&D specifically because of game balance.

The only game balance related problem that a SR campaign face is when 2 PCs have the same specialty and one is much better at it than the other one. Only then will the GM have to do something to rectify the situation in order to maintain enjoyment. Usually, this competition occurs on combat type (never seen 2 deckers on a team!) and I simply encourage the PCs to specialize further in different area.

As for Magic VS Cyber, I don't even see it. Sometime a powerful mage will be hobbled by a high background count and other time a killer street sam will get his ass whooped by a relatively weak spirit. While they sometime intersect in their role, Street Sam and Magic user are very distinct in uses. And Physads, well they shouldn't be trying to do a street sam role when there is a street sam on the team. Duh. They should fill their own niche and usually they are the best at the stealth game. Sniper, Thief, Faceman etc.
Sokei
QUOTE
The only game balance related problem that a SR campaign face is when 2 PCs have the same specialty and one is much better at it than the other one. Only then will the GM have to do something to rectify the situation in order to maintain enjoyment. Usually, this competition occurs on combat type (never seen 2 deckers on a team!) and I simply encourage the PCs to specialize further in different area.



yeah i've seen this more than once, i almost had 3 adepts in a group so one adept is making a Decker now (mainly because the new guy is completely green to SR). So the group went from a potential 2 mages 3 adepts and a face to what it is now, 1 adept 1 decker 2 mages 1 sniper (general long range support) 1 face. the team seems to be happy when they don't step on each others toes. Honestly having skills balanced out this way saves me a head ache. I have no idea what i would have done with 3 adepts and 2 mages, not to mention how pissed the face would have been every time there was combat " ok face sit back and watch the massacre"
James McMurray
Charon: while you're right that there are no classes in SR, most of the time charcters fall into an archetype which is almost identical to a class: Street Sam, Physad, Mage/Shaman, Decker, Rigger, Face, etc.

I haven't seen a single classless system where this was not the case. Some skillsets are complimentary enough that they show up in the same character types over and over again.

QUOTE
The only game balance related problem that a SR campaign face is when 2 PCs have the same specialty and one is much better at it than the other one. Only then will the GM have to do something to rectify the situation in order to maintain enjoyment. Usually, this competition occurs on combat type (never seen 2 deckers on a team!) and I simply encourage the PCs to specialize further in different area.


I diagree. If the troll physad is completely untouchable by most common means of attack by the enemy, the GM has to ramp up the enemy's power somethimes, just to give that character a challenge. But when that happens, the rest of the charcters find themselves in a fight with someone that can kill them on accident.

A group of players should work amongst themselves (with help from the GM if ecessary) to ensure that their group doesn't end up in that situation.
mfb
that is the challenge. when you're the badass combat monster on your team, your job is not to kill bad guys--it's to keep the bad guys from killing the rest of your team. hell, that's when i'm having the most fun, when i'm playing the badass combat monster--killing the bad guys is easy, most times; keeping my team alive is not.
James McMurray
Of course keeping your team alive is not easy. Its damn near impossible when your character can shrug off assault rifles and everyone else's characters have a hard time taking a punch from an orc. Unless the GM sends every single shot at the big nasty troll, team members are going to drop.
mfb
right. and it's the troll's job to make damn good and sure that most of the bullets are aimed his way, rather than at the decker. that's where the challenge lies--the badass has to a) draw the majority of the fire; b) kill the majority of the opposition, and c) not die.
Reaver
QUOTE (Moirdryd)
Okay, to cease from Hi-Jacking the Mundanes out the Box thread, i`ve opened this one. Serious question though. I`d especially like to hear from all the Long running GM`s i know are sitting out there as they`ve seem (almost) everything i`m sure.

To the question at hand. Power Levels and Game Balance. How do we each gauge these at our SR gaming tablem ? What `game breakers` have you seen? How have you responded? What crushing effects have we seen high Karma pools deliver? and Do Adepts really taste like Chicken?

Just a few to get everyone ranting smile.gif

Game Breakers aren't usually a problem for me. I encourage role-playing and don't encourage munchkinism. Munchkins and game breakers don't get near the karma rewards. Since they don't get near the rewards... they don't keep up with the rising power level and evolution does the rest. smile.gif

High karma pools aren't ever a problem either. The enemy usually does a good job of draining those. wink.gif Seriously though. Karma pools specifically refresh after the end of each adventure. That means that any character development in between that uses karma pool will still be reduced until the end of the next run. It's not been uncommon for my runners to start with a few points of reduction in thier pool because of this.

Oh, and adepts taste more like pork... especially the Lone Star ones. smile.gif
James McMurray
And how pray tell does he do that?

Unless the rest of the party hides, they are going to come under fire. If they do hide, then it sounds like combat is pretty boring for the rest of the players.
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 15 2005, 01:37 PM)
Charon: while you're right that there are no classes in SR, most of the time charcters fall into an archetype which is almost identical to a class: Street Sam, Physad, Mage/Shaman, Decker, Rigger, Face, etc.

...

I diagree. If the troll physad is completely untouchable by most common means of attack by the enemy, the GM has to ramp up the enemy's power somethimes, just to give that character a challenge. But when that happens, the rest of the charcters find themselves

1 - Of course but since archetype are not a package deal like D&D classes, there's an important distinction. For one thing, D&D classes are a package deal of ability carefully considered to be roughly equivalent over the course of a typical adventure with a strong emphasis put on combat. The weakest fighting class of D&D are still pulling their weight during combat.

You don't have that with SR archetype. PC are put together as you see fit and one built is not balanced against the other. The only balance is that we all start with the same ressources.

But the rest of my post was to point out that it's not a problem as long as everyone specialize in different area and is willing to take a backseat when his specialty is not required.

But if 2 PC have the same specialty, than the fact that this is a classless game become obvious. 2 Fighter of the same level in DnD are roughly as powerful, even with different styles in most instances. You're likely to find a bigger gap in SR between two street sam if one PC didn't squeeze as much power out of his starting ressources.

2 - OK, I didn't see the problem that way. Problem is, I never really saw a 'Completely untouchable' physads, or any other kind of combat monster that I couldn't endanger through standard tactics so I can't really comment (And yes, I had a 15 body troll in my very first campaign as most GM, I suspect.).
James McMurray
That's why I said "by most common means of attack". It doesn't matter what tactics you're using if you're against a troll with body 13 and baliistic armor of 7 and all you have are heavy pistols.

If you increase the skill ratings or firepower of the opposition then you end up hurting the other characters much more. Unless you ignore the other characters during combat, which is unrealistic.
Charon
What, is he wearing full body armor all the time?

Most likely it's just Armor vest and Orthoskin and perhaps layering of armor, right?

My solution is usually to shoot them in the head. Works real well, too. Once forced a troll to spend 6 karma pool in order to reduce a light pistol wound to M. The guard (pistol 3) got lucky while aiming for the head (four 6s on a total of 6 dice rolled, yay!), the troll less so. He had 14 dice of body, no armor on the head so he needed TN 6. He only got 5 after 3 retry. Man, was he disgusted.

mfb
hiding and getting killed are not the only options. the rest of the team, if they're not strong combatants, should be taking potshots at the bad guys from behind lots of cover, and ducking for cover whenever the bad guys so much as look in their direction. it won't be boring; if anything, it'll be terrifying.
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