John Campbell
Feb 15 2005, 02:10 AM
Then you're not fighting single-sword, you're fighting greatweapon.
Kagetenshi
Feb 15 2005, 02:17 AM
I question the assertion that a hand-and-a-half sword (or, in my case, a katana) ever counts as a greatweapon.
~J
John Campbell
Feb 15 2005, 02:47 AM
If you're using it two-handed, it's a greatweapon, for the purposes of classification that I'm using here. It's a small one that sacrifices reach for raw speed, but my point here is that it's two-handed, and deriving benefit - speed and power - from use of the off hand.
If you're using it one-handed, it's single-sword, and I stand by my evaluation of its basic suckitude.
Kagetenshi
Feb 15 2005, 02:50 AM
Fair enough; I agree with your evaluation in that case.
~J
Modesitt
Feb 15 2005, 03:50 AM
QUOTE |
So, my point is not if two weapon fighting better in the real world. It is should it be better in a game that is at least on some level about being fair? |
No, it shouldn't, because the game isn't fair.
Some things are just inferior to other things. For example, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.
I have absolutely no problem with a 6 point edge edge and a substantial skill investment making you straight-up better than everyone else at your chosen schtick and you shouldn't either. For those 6 points you spent on an edge, you could have another skill at 6, such as Assault Rifles. For all that karma you spent on your new off-hand skill, you could have probably initiated at least once or something.
And for all of that, you are good at -ONE- thing. You totally rip shit up in melee. You honestly probably suck compared to many of your team mates if your entire schtick is "I have two weapons and can kill you in melee!", because if you're even IN melee you probably made a mistake somewhere along the line.
You know, there IS a reason that almost every fighting style ever uses both hands. Sword and dagger, sword and shield, katana and wakazashi(or whatnot), whatever. It's because two hands are better than one.
Arethusa
Feb 15 2005, 05:04 AM
QUOTE (Modesitt) |
You know, there IS a reason that almost every fighting style ever uses both hands. Sword and dagger, sword and shield, katana and wakazashi(or whatnot), whatever. It's because two hands are better than one. |
Please try harder at being right.
mfb
Feb 15 2005, 05:31 AM
why? it's a solid point, especially if you start including stuff like two-handed weapons. if your non-weapon hand is just out there hanging, you're not fighting as well as you could be. using it to hold a second weapon--or, hell, just using it to punch and block--makes you a better combatant more often than it makes you a worse one.
Arethusa
Feb 15 2005, 05:39 AM
It's a terrible point, underlined by the ridiculous reference to the katana and wakizashi. What about saber? What about rapier? What about cutlass? What about tulwar? What about scimitar?
Nothing says your second hand just hangs around, but nothing says you use it aggressively to deal damage, either, and I wouldn't rely on an unarmored, unweaponed, and unshielded arm to block with. And a lot of those styles wouldn't really benefit from adding a second weapon. If it were, every style ever created actually would involve two weapons, but most styles don't, and that statement is patently absurd.
Lindt
Feb 15 2005, 06:22 AM
No no, he is making a valid point. Modesitt is pointing out that its natural to use both hands period. See those weapons (with the exceptions of the scimitar and tulwar, which where mounted weapons primarily) you mentioned, Saber, rapier are both in the are of firearms. The where deisgned so that you could have a pistol in your off hand. Shields went out with the broadsword. Ta da, 2 weapon fighting.
Arethusa
Feb 15 2005, 06:31 AM
No, Modesitt is saying that you should use both hands to grip onto something other than your primary weapon. This is not the case. I'd damn well rather have my off hand free in a rapier fight than holding another rapier, and I'd damn well rather have both hands on a katana if I have to use one. This runs fully counter to the assertion that two weapons are better than one, which is entirely absurd; two weapons can be better than one.
Rapier and saber were never fighting styles designed for use with firearms. Hell, the firearms of the day, until you start getting towards the end of the saber during the civil war era, were one shot deals you fired off at the beginning of a fight before moving in. I'm not sure where you're getting this.
JaronK
Feb 15 2005, 07:38 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
I'd damn well rather have my off hand free in a rapier fight than holding another rapier |
That's very bizaare. While the offhand can be used for a few things if left free, I'd sure as heck rather have a second rapier. Even if you're not skilled in using the offhand, just leaving it in parry postion will close off a major line of attack.
JaronK
Arethusa
Feb 15 2005, 07:46 AM
Um, the entire rapier style revolves around balance and speed— balance provided largely by the use of a free second hand and speed provided by a lack of encumberance, among other things. A parrying dagger in the offhand doesn't offset speed or balance significantly and does provide a defensive benefit, though not one everyone necessarily prefers, and it comes with its own drawbacks. A second rapier, on the other hand, doesn't suit the style at all.
John Campbell
Feb 15 2005, 07:53 AM
JaronK
Feb 15 2005, 07:58 AM
Arethusa... practice. Trust me. I've got a few years of fencing behind me (and a lot of years of stage combat, plus circus training) and I can tell you right now that if you know what you're doing, the second hand shouldn't hurt your mainhand balance at all, but should add a lot of tactical flexbility, allowing parry/strikes, double attacks, and a variety of other manuevers that simply aren't possible with a single hand.
JaronK
Arethusa
Feb 15 2005, 08:03 AM
Digrassi is, for the purpose of anlogy, the Musashi of European fencing masters.
That, unfortunately, makes citing this as mainstream about as sensible as talking about the much vaunted katana and wakizashi style.
John Campbell
Feb 15 2005, 08:25 AM
DiGrassi is hardly alone in documenting the use of case of rapiers in period rapier combat... Marozzo, Agrippa, and Lovino all mention it or illustrate it, that I can find with an offhand search. Most period fencing masters take as given that you will be using a dagger or buckler or something (cloak, scabbard, whatever you've got) in your off hand. Many recommend using the dagger as your primary defense, parrying with your rapier only thrusts to your right side. Real rapier combat was a two-handed style.
Arethusa
Feb 15 2005, 08:55 AM
Hm. Interesting. Have read through some of the old fencing manuals,b ut I guess I never really took any substantial note of sections on two reapier techniques. I really can't say I agree that most period fencing involved the use of something in the off hand; whether this is skewed sample or just something I've missed, I'm not sure.
Be that as it may, I still take issue with categorically stating that two weapons are better than one.
Critias
Feb 15 2005, 10:18 AM
I don't think anyone said that two weapons are automatically, magically, better than one. I think it's been said that with tons of practice, two weapons can be better than one.
I'm curious as to how it would stack up (but not curious enough to bother with the math) -- if you had a character that put every available karma point, etc, into Edged Weapons, and a second character that put every available karma point, etc, into a mixture of Edged Weapons and Off-Hand Weapons, how would they stack up? Same stats, same adept boosts (or cyberware, or whatever), same budget for weapons, etc, etc.
Would the person focusing on one skill have an edge, or would the guy who got the bonus dice by being less concentrated? At one point does one or the other pull ahead in overall efficiency?
Shockwave_IIc
Feb 15 2005, 12:05 PM
I've just done that.
For the purpose of keeping the Karma Cost's low i chose a Strength of 6. Karma Costs a TOTAL. And that the Off hand will not be higher then the primary. ~Adepts are assumed to have Equal lvl to the skill and that Improved Ability can be Appilied to Off-Hand Skills. Result is that you Double the amount of Dice you get.
One Weapon: Skill 1/ 1 Karma / 1 Dice
Two Weapons: Skill 1-1/ 2 Karma / 1 Dice
Skill 2/ 4 Karma/ 2 Dice
Skill 2-1/ 5 Karma/ 2 Dice
Skill 2-2/ 8 Karma/ 3 Dice
Skill 3/ 8 Karma/ 3 Dice
Skill 3-1/ 9 Karma/ 3 Dice
Skill 3-2/ 12 Karma/ 4 Dice
Skill 4/ 14 Karma/ 4 Dice
Skill 4-1/ 15 Karma/ 4 Dice
Skill 3-3/ 16 Karma/ 4 Dice
Skill 4-2/ 18 Karma/ 5 Dice
Skill 5/ 21 Karma/ 5 Dice
Skill 4-3/ 22 Karma/ 5 Dice
Skill 4-4/ 28 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 6/ 30 Karma/ 6 Dice
I Stopped at this point because i've spotted that if you intend to Dual Weild your chosen weapons then to be effective you will need the higher strength. Thus i shall rewrite the Cost's as if the person involved was average Human.
The Costs stay the same upto this point.
Skill 4/ 16 Karma/ 4 Dice
Skill 3-3/ 16 Karma/ 4 Dice
Skill 4-1/ 17 Karma/ 4 Dice
Skill 4-2/ 20 Karma/ 5 Dice
Skill 4-3/ 24 Karma/ 5 Dice
Skill 5/ 26 Karma/ 5 Dice
Skill 5-1/ 27 Karma/ 5 Dice
Skill 5-2/ 30 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 4-4/ 32 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 5-3/ 34 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 6/ 38 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 6-1/ 39 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 6-2/ 42 Karma/ 7 Dice
Skill 5-4/ 42 Karma/ 7 Dice
Skill 6-3/ 46 Karma/ 7 Dice
Skill 5-5/ 52 Karma/ 7 Dice
Skill 6-4/ 54 Karma/ 8 Dice
Skill 7/ 55 Karma/ 7 Dice
So from this. Have a Strength Value at an Even Number Since it is best the your Off hand doesn't go over your strength so as to keep the Karma cost's low and you only get Extra dice at even lvl's in skill. And that Adepts Dual Wield
Example: Strength 4
Skill 4-4/ 28 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 5-2/ 32 Karma/ 6 Dice
Skill 6/ 36 Karma/ 6 Dice
GentlemanLoser
Feb 15 2005, 12:22 PM
Personally, (although I prefer Longsword to single sword) I'd like my off hand free to bind and grapple after I close with my opponent.
Although I can do that with a longsword just as well as a single (well after I've brushed up on my Giocco Stretto plays

). Also, a free hand allows for some nice half swording fun.
But then I really do prefer to close with my opponents than to keep them at distance like some styles.
kevyn668
Feb 16 2005, 02:27 AM
QUOTE |
Some things are just inferior to other things. For example, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. |
I would. I'd also bring a gun or five, too, but that's neither here nor there...
Edward
Feb 16 2005, 06:41 AM
QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
QUOTE (Edward @ Feb 14 2005, 08:13 PM) | I suspected that possibility but discounted it because swords are griped with 2 hands close together at one end (excluding half sword style) |
Wrong. Grip any two-hander both ways, and tell me which works better.
On many two-handers, you may end up finding yourself gripping as high as to be grasping the blade as well as the grip.
As to the two-swords, it's great and does give you quite an advantage over an oponent with one. However, if your opponent happens to have a shield, things just got a lot more complicated.
|
With the exception of the really big swords wielded half sword style griping the blade is all kinds of stupid. As in cutting up your hand.
You do get an advantage for having a shield, its called extra armour
Arethusa brings up the following examples of single handed fighting tequniques “It's a terrible point, underlined by the ridiculous reference to the katana and wakizashi. What about saber? What about rapier? What about cutlass? What about tulwar? What about scimitar?”
With the exception of tulwar (witch I have never heard of) there are counters. The saber and rapier where gentleman’s dueling weapons a disadvantage is not a disadvantage if the rules force it on both combatants and I point out that at some locations ant times the rapier was pared with a maingaush (spelling probably wrong, it is a type of dagger with a very wide crossbar used for defense)
The only information I have on the cutlass is as a shipboard weapon where the tight quarters and moving deck preclude the use of a lager weapon and require the of hand be ready to catch at rigging to gain stability, even then when conditions allowed it a belay pin would often be pressed into service as a club for use in the other hand.
As I look threw my memory of historical combat types most have 2 hands on ether weapon or shield (be it 2 handed weapon, weapon and shield or 2 weapons) and all the exceptions I can think of where ether duelling styles (where the rules say only one weapon) or styles designed to cope with less (when you are attacked with only one weapon, all most people carry when not looking for trouble).
I would subject that IA edges not be applicable to of hand edged unless the character has ambidexterity enough not to take the skill separately.
Edward
GentlemanLoser
Feb 16 2005, 08:24 AM
"With the exception of the really big swords wielded half sword style griping the blade is all kinds of stupid. As in cutting up your hand."
Not intirely true... Fingering the blade (huh, not sure if there is a more technical term..), using the thumb on the flat of the blade, was used to provide stability. Looping your index finger over your guard was also used, which led to the developement of ring shaped finger guards. Also, the strong was usually blunt, so if you really had to (and you weren't using any kind of hand protection) griping the blade there wouldn't cut you.
Actually (although I am loath to try this myself

) my instructor demonstrates griping a blade with a sharp sword. As long as you hold on to it tightly enough (and he has other students try to pull it out of his grip) a blade does not cut into his hand.
But maybe he just has rhino skin...
JaronK
Feb 16 2005, 08:35 AM
The problem with gripping the blade isn't that it's sharp and you cut your hands (many blades really aren't that sharp, especially near the base, so that's not the big issue). The biggest problem is that when an enemy strikes and you parry, it's easy to have the enemy sword slip down your blade and hit the gaurd. If your finger or hand happens to be at that point, well, no more finger, or hand.
JaronK
John Campbell
Feb 16 2005, 08:16 PM
Many greatswords have a blunt ricasso that allows a foot or more of safe grip above the quillions, and have a set of prongs or the like above the ricasso, almost like a second guard, to prevent the enemy's blade from sliding down into the hands.
DrJest
Feb 16 2005, 08:47 PM
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O==|==---|=======>
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That's basically what you're getting at, isn't it John?
I was introduced to one during an explanation of how a greatsword was fully functional in tight quarters

EDIT: ...except that the formatting shoots all to hell <sigh>
Kagetenshi
Feb 16 2005, 08:49 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say "fully" functional, but pretty functional.
~J
Arethusa
Feb 16 2005, 08:56 PM
QUOTE (DrJest) |
| O==|==---|=======> |
That's basically what you're getting at, isn't it John?
I was introduced to one during an explanation of how a greatsword was fully functional in tight quarters 
EDIT: ...except that the formatting shoots all to hell <sigh> |
Use [code] tags.
DrJest
Feb 16 2005, 09:11 PM
CODE |
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Aha!
Ta Arethusa
John Campbell
Feb 16 2005, 10:52 PM
Hmm. MRL apparently no longer carries the particular blade I had in mind as the best example, but
this one will do. The one I was thinking of had a standard straight blade, longer ricasso (or, actually, about the same length, but with the prongs right at the point where ricasso turned into edge instead of a few inches into the ricasso), and less prominent prongs.
Close-quarters combat with a greatsword is... well, I avoid it when I can. My preferred range with my greatsword is about six feet, where I'm right in my ideal attack range and just outside effective broadsword range. The one exception is against longer greatweapons (poles, usually), where I want to be right in their face, preferably with their weapon trapped in my quillions. But running forwards is faster than running backwards, so it's difficult to maintain range against someone determined to close, so if I can't kill them before they get there, I'm going to end up in close-quarters combat sooner or later.
And it's
ugly. Properly done, close-quarters greatsword combat is half-swording, pommel strikes, prying and mauling with the quillions (there's one lovely technique I've seen illustrated in fechtbooks but never had the opportunity to try that involves reversing the weapon and using the quillions like a pickaxe), exploiting the leverage that six-foot length of steel provides for all it's worth to manhandle your opponent's weapon and/or shield and/or body, shoving and wrestling and grappling... even lifting the other guy off the ground and throwing him back out to where you can hit him properly (if you use the leverage right, it's not as difficult as it sounds). If you can't maintain your range, you want to be right on top of him, in contact with him whenever possible. At six feet, the greatsword rules. At two feet, the greatsword's fucked. At six inches... the greatsword's probably still fucked, but he can make a fight of it.
Edward
Feb 17 2005, 11:23 AM
My understanding (reinforced by the text associated with that link) was that only the largest of the true 2 handed swords where designed to do that and that even then not you only changed to the half sword grip when fighting in close quarters (ie when your reach bonus is gone)
Of cause I could be wrong.
On a more SR note dose and should a troll get a lager range of weapons he may wielded as primary or secondary in a 2 weapon set.
Edward
John Campbell
Feb 17 2005, 07:18 PM
QUOTE (Edward) |
My understanding (reinforced by the text associated with that link) was that only the largest of the true 2 handed swords where designed to do that and that even then not you only changed to the half sword grip when fighting in close quarters (ie when your reach bonus is gone) |
Yeah, but that's true of poles, too (the original question was about the similarities between handling a pole and a greatsword, no?). At range, with either pole or greatsword, you usually want one hand right on the pommel/buttspike, and the other a foot or two up the haft. This gives you a fair amount of leverage and maximizes your reach, which is the greatweapon's big advantage. When the range closes, you shift your grip up the weapon to make it handier in close. Exactly where the switchover point is varies, largely dependent on the length of the weapon... the smaller it is, the closer you can use it without having to shift grips, and so the less important it is to have a ricasso or haft you can grab onto. Bastard swords usually don't have proper ricassos at all, but they don't really need them... they're small enough that you can use them with a normal grip all the way into grappling range. And even bastard swords are not typically extremely sharp near the base of the blade... you can't really effectively strike with that part of the blade, anyway, so it's better to keep it somewhat dull so that it stands up to blocking better, which conveniently also allows you to grab it at need.
I usually fight greatsword left-hand-leading (even though I'm right-handed) at range, with my left hand right below the quillions and my right just above the pommel. Against two-weapon or another greatweapon, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, but against 90% of shields, it gives me easy power shots into his unshielded side, and the cross-arm shots that I have some trouble with (my vambraces get in the way) would be into the shield anyway. When range closes, I simply leave my left hand where it is and switch the right from the pommel to reversed on the ricasso, which lets me cover my whole left side (my opponent's weapon side) with the hilt and quillions, control his shield with my right knee and elbow (which keeps my right side covered... I'm using his shield as my defense), and gives me half-sword blows down over the top of his shield into his head.
QUOTE |
On a more SR note dose and should a troll get a lager range of weapons he may wielded as primary or secondary in a 2 weapon set. |
Ah, the lager range of weapons... everyone's favorite style, two-beer.
Seriously, yes.
But so should everyone else. I've effectively fought two-weapon styles that are flat-out forbidden by the arbitrary primary/secondary weapon rules, most notably two-sword.
The way I figure it, if you can use the weapon one-handed, you should be able to use it in either hand as part of a two-weapon style. There are a few exceptions - two-morning-star is generally a bad idea, for example - but they can be handled on a case-by-case basis.
Even that doesn't cover some of the goofier styles I've used, like broadsword and greatsword (greatsword in the off hand, held by the ricasso, point-down... it's like a narrow shield that you can stab with), but it gets most of the really effective ones.
And we've got one fighter around here who has the muscle for a troll, if not the size... he's a powerlifter, has biceps, literally, bigger around than my thighs. Can dead-lift something like 800 pounds. I've actually witnessed him fighting two-greatsword. Not little bastard swords, either... it was my 66" greatsword and his own slightly shorter no-dachi (62" or so, I think). He'd been holding one in each hand, comparing the length and weight, when Master Rhioblan, being a smartass, said, "Hey, I bet you can't fight that." So he did, and it worked pretty well, though he needed longer arms to make it truly effective... he had a tendency to get the swords tangled in passing. A troll fighting two-greatsword would be a scary, scary thing.
Kagetenshi
Feb 17 2005, 07:23 PM
Two-manrikigusari would just be weird. I have no doubt that someone sufficiently talented could make it extremely effective, but I can't see any way for a mere mortal to make it work without essentially reducing both of them to simple bashing weapons.
~J
Arethusa
Feb 17 2005, 07:25 PM
There's really no way anyone could use them as anything other than a pair of metal whips, which is compromising a lot of things for minimal gain.