Anyway, This is probiblaly me being blind and stupid, but does improved invisibility effect Thermographic eyeware, and lenses?

I know it doesn't effect ultrasound, but I just needed to know about thermo, because to me it doesn't make sense for it to have an effect, but I know better than to mix logic and SR rules.

It depends on how you read it. The spell's description says it makes the target undetectable by "normal vision." Some would probably read this to mean it doesn't protect against temographic vsion at all.

If you're not one of those, then you don't even need improved invis to fool cybereyes, as the mana version of the spell affects the viewer's mind, not his eyes.

Except that thermographic is normal for a number of species...

Right, which is why I said that some people would read it that way. It all depends on your definition of "normal."

While there's no perfect way to scientifically explain the physical version of magical invisibility in shadowrun, here's my take on it: The physical invisibility spell, improved invisibility, allows 99% of electromagnetic waves to pass throught the recipient of the spell, but the recipient's mass still intereacts with medium-dependant waves (like sound) normally. (if 100% of electromagnetic waves passwed through the character, he'd be effectively blind, so I reason that this 1% is also why witnesses of the invisible being et a saving throw...)

In plain enlgish: the target of the spell is like a squeaky clean, flat, piece of glass at room temperature. Sound still bounces of it just fine, and it doesn't necessarily give off a noticeable thermal signature.

Just my 2 cents
Thanks for pretendig to pay attention
S'Ren

If you resist the spell, you see the target normally and may not even realize that they're invisible to some people. That doesn't sound like a physical change to me.

~J

Though I don't like the decision (because thermo is only heat radiating off not the person themselves), FanPro has it listed in their FAQ that it does fool Thermo.

Not to mention if Trolls were near by, they would (pretty much) always see the invisible people if it did work.

There is little-to-no logic with magic, trying to tie real physics in attempts to explain it are often pointless.

kage, you can't get that from the text in SR3. all it says is that a target who resists the spell notices the illusion--that's a whole different animal from not realizing the illusion exists.

If it were me I would rule on the basis of wether the thermo being used to view the invisible target was a part of the viewers normal vision (were they born with it) or is it artificial, if artificial yes they would see, if part of thier natural vision package, then no.

I'm having trouble finding the exact section, but I'm pretty sure it says that someone who resists is unaffected by the spell. If you'd care to tell me how someone unaffected by an invisibility spell would notice that someone was invisible without observing the reactions of others (or, alternatively, point out that I'm completely wrong in my memory of the wording), I'd appreciate it.

~J

Every gaming group I've been with has rulled that it does not affect thermal. Hence the reason our mages wrote a spell that does affect thermal as well... just with a slightly higher drain of course.

It affects a person's visual senses. It's an illusion--the physical version makes a little less sense since it automatically fools sensors (which have no mind to fool) but people resist normally. Which means, as some fellow kindly stated before, that if they resist, it's like the spell doesn't exist--they're completely unaffected.

Anyway, the basic point is, against living organisms, it fools their mind--or at least the part governing sight. The reason ultrasonic vision will bypass it is it's technically a sound-based sense. The processor built into it will make a visual map based on the data it gathers from the sonic pulses it emits, but remember--a stealth spell will fool it.

a Stealth spell, perhaps I'm just being stupid again, but I haven't heard of a stealth spell, silence, yeah, but not stealth, care to fill me in?

Essentially single-target Silence with a more powerful effect.

Edit: old and sloooow.

~J