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Little Bill
Is the term "canon" too loaded to use for rules discussion? I hate hearing phrases like "that's not in canon" or "where is that in canon" or "that goes against canon" on this forum.
Always debating rules as for or against canon says "gaming is my religion" to me, and not in a good way.

I would much prefer "where was that in the books?" or "that's kind of contrary to the tone in the books" and less loaded phrases like that.

Is it just me?
Ecclesiastes
Yep. Its just you.
Kanada Ten
The two words don't seem to impart a different effect on myself.
BitBasher
It's just you, that's a proper application of the word.
Sandoval Smith
Potato/potahto.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
I have no problem with it. I would actually prefer it to "the books" if I had to choose.
Kagetenshi
Just you. It's quick and accurate.

~J
Little Bill
QUOTE (BitBasher)
It's just you, that's a proper application of the word.

Oh I agree that it's techincally a proper application of the word, I'm just thinking that "canon" has a lot of baggage with it. Apparently I am indeed the only one who doesn't like using it in this context, however.
Cray74
QUOTE (Little Bill)
I would much prefer "where was that in the books?" or "that's kind of contrary to the tone in the books" and less loaded phrases like that.

That's what canon means to me. It isn't a loaded word to me at all.
Herald of Verjigorm
"Canon" brings only the baggage you put with it. If you suffer a nervous breakdown anytime your house rules are not accepted by other groups on different continents than you because "it's not canon," the problem is yours alone.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE
"that's not in canon"
"where is that in canon"

Technically, its never "in canon". Its simply canon or not. The only type of "canon" that something could be "in" would be a cannon.
vapor
pc on dsf?

weaksauce.
shadow_scholar
The only reason I don't like it is because the sourcebook, Canon Companion, can be easily confused with the term.
Kagetenshi
Never heard of it. Perhaps you're referencing the Cannon Companion? nyahnyah.gif

~J
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (shadow_scholar)
The only reason I don't like it is because the sourcebook, Canon Companion, can be easily confused with the term.

I don't find the two words easy to be confused with one another, no more than I find the words "desert" and "dessert" to be easily confused with each other.
techboy
It bothers me a little when people capitalize it, like it IS a religious text, or something.

Lowercase, it's totally appropriate.

So, yeah, I guess it's just you. wink.gif
Crimson Jack
Heh, coincidentally the first definition of the word has everything to do with religious text.
Fresno Bob
"And yea, the god doth spake...let there be useless cyberlimbs"
shadow_scholar
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Never heard of it. Perhaps you're referencing the Cannon Companion? nyahnyah.gif

~J

Yes. Thats...my bad.

techboy
QUOTE (Crimson Jack)
Heh, coincidentally the first definition of the word has everything to do with religious text.

It's not a coincidence. The reason it bothers me (slightly) is that the capitalized version is only appropriate to religious texts. And cameras.

"And Lot's wife failed her willpower check (target number 12), and..."
toturi
Canon is Canon. You have a problem with that? biggrin.gif

Relax, there's nothing to get worked up about, House Rulings are part of the Canon GM abilities rotfl.gif . I am guilty of the oh-too-frequent use of that word, but to me, it simply means something is in the published books.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (toturi)
Canon is Canon. You have a problem with that? biggrin.gif

Relax, there's nothing to get worked up about, House Rulings are part of the Canon GM abilities rotfl.gif . I am guilty of the oh-too-frequent use of that word, but to me, it simply means something is in the published books.

<looks at toturi's sig>
toturi
QUOTE (Crimson Jack)
<looks at toturi's sig>

eek.gif wink.gif
AnotherFreakBoy
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
Potato/potahto.

Don't you mean potayto/potato
Crimson Jack
I'm reminded of an SNL skit... heh.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Crimson Jack)
QUOTE
"that's not in canon"
"where is that in canon"

Technically, its never "in canon". Its simply canon or not. The only type of "canon" that something could be "in" would be a cannon.

No, Little Bill's use of canon as a noun is not incorrect, though usually there is a definite article accompanying. In fact, it's just an idiosyncrasy of this boards to use it always as an adjective (or, I guess if you want to be liberal about canon being blown out of proportion, a state of being), which is actually not strictly proper, as their is no adjective form of the word.

Anyway, I have to actually agree with Bill that in my time here, I've seen canon given an undue weight and authority around here, and, more specifically, a perhaps a vaguely offensive authority it never deserved. So, yes, it is a bit loaded as there tends to be a little baggage trailing along, but I don't feel this is an issue of semantics, and I think the concept would tag along whether you say "canon" or "in the books" or whatever suitable replacement you prefer, and I don't think it's necessarily as significant as the first post makes it out to be.
Edward
There is a slight difference I see. There may be some books that are not canon. I don’t know about SR but in D&D 3.0 & 3.5 “in the books” is much les specific than “canon”

Its other advantage is that it is les typing than “as stated in the rule books”. This may indicate that we are lazy but if we where not then why would CC be more common on the boards than canon companion.

Some people tae it to seriously but you will find extremists in every grouping of people and it can be hard to impart feelings into text accurately (hence the CAPS) sometimes people want to express a sentiment between normal and shouting strength and people read it wrong. this is the WWW, confusion hapons.

Edward
Crimson Jack
No, technically, that's not the correct way to use the word. The definition of the word, as it matters to this thread's use of the word, is as follows:
QUOTE
2 a : an accepted principle or rule <canons of descent>

So to say, "that's not in canon" would translate to "that's not in an accepted principle or rule." One should say, "that's not canon." This would imply "that's not an accepted principle or rule."
Connor
Just to clarify Crimson Jack's definition, I think these entries from Webster's clarify the usage here a little better.

QUOTE

3c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>

4 a : an accepted principle or rule b : a criterion or standard of judgment c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms


Obviously, I don't have a problem with the term, and think it's a very good word to use as it specifies a certain specific group of books and rules in which to use as a frame of reference.
Weredigo
Actually I'm reminded of an Ex Vice President.

canon, written upon and published in the books and followed by others

cannon, prep the fuse, pack it full of gunpowder, add a cannon ball or anything else metallic you wouldn't mind being rid of, point at target, light fuse... no more target.

same difference to me.
mfb
QUOTE (vapor)
pc on dsf?

weaksauce.


hahahahahahahahahahaha
torzzzzz
biggrin.gif

Well i dont mind peeps useing it but......... it would be nice for the more experienced players to say where in canon the information they are talking about is! would make looking it up alot easyer!

torz x
RunnerPaul
It's merely a very convenient word for expressing the concept "the common base upon which each of us have built our widely divergent philosophies upon". Nothing more.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (torzzzzz)
it would be nice for the more experienced players to say where in canon the information they are talking about is!

In other words, you want us to start citing Chapter and Verse?
torzzzzz
wink.gif

QUOTE
In other words, you want us to start citing Chapter and Verse?


no no no! you have me wrong i mean if it is a particulary hotly debated topic it would be good to have a section to refer to, i mean i can reed but it is alot to take in when you are trying to find something specific!

torz x
JaronK
You know, a cannon made to the exact specifications of how a cannon should be made would be a canon cannon, which absolutely rocks.

I like the word. It gets the point across quickly and susinctly.

JaronK
Ancient History
In the earliest edition of Shadowrun, questioning authority was a common and accepted practice. Shadowrun players (and roleplayers in general) tend to carry on this fine tradition.

The tendancy toward the term "canon" is mostly, in my experience, a result of having to deal with a number of different Shadowrun games, and needing a common frame of reference. Whether you just haven't gotten to a major plot device, or you never read a given book and continued playing without it, or whether you changed major elements of the setting to suit your whims or specific idea of the game you want to play; you've wandered away from the common reference material that everyone (theoretically) has access to. This also applies to rules, where House Rules and (for reasons I cannot imagine) conversions to other systems may make conversations a tad chaotic if there is no common ground.

Naturally, even with canon, interpretations differ. Which is as it should be.

JaronK: Actually, I think that would be the canon cannon according to the cannon canon. But I digress.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Little Bill)
Is the term "canon" too loaded to use for rules discussion? I hate hearing phrases like "that's not in canon" or "where is that in canon" or "that goes against canon" on this forum.
Always debating rules as for or against canon says "gaming is my religion" to me, and not in a good way.

I would much prefer "where was that in the books?" or "that's kind of contrary to the tone in the books" and less loaded phrases like that.

Is it just me?

Little Bill, how would you feel if I said Hitler was a hero? Or that FDR was a tyrant?

Because if you go back long enough and use the meanings of those words as they either used to be use or fist meant. Then Hitler was indeed a man who did a great many things things that few people could have or have done. There he is a hero. FDR, was a strong leader who used his will to get things done. There he is a Tyrant.

Words have meaning, but those meanings are not set in stone.
Little Bill
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Little Bill, how would you feel if I said Hitler was a hero? Or that FDR was a tyrant?

I would say that while you may be technically correct in your use of those terms for Hitler and FDR that you are probably not using the best terms to communicate your actual opinion.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Little Bill)
Is the term "canon" too loaded to use for rules discussion? I hate hearing phrases like "that's not in canon" or "where is that in canon" or "that goes against canon" on this forum.
Always debating rules as for or against canon says "gaming is my religion" to me, and not in a good way.

I would much prefer "where was that in the books?" or "that's kind of contrary to the tone in the books" and less loaded phrases like that.

Is it just me?

Bored eh?

Some people say RAW instead of canon, but who really cares? It's communicating a concept so we don't have to say something like, "Well there's nothing the current SR version of sourcebooks that says...."

Get over it chummer. cyber.gif
nezumi
QUOTE (JaronK)
You know, a cannon made to the exact specifications of how a cannon should be made would be a canon cannon, which absolutely rocks.

I like the word. It gets the point across quickly and susinctly.

I suppose a canon cannon WOULD get the point across rather quickly, although 'succint' isn't the second word that comes to mind. Perhaps 'messy' is more appropriate.

As an added plus, it would be quite difficult to create an effective counterpoint (after all, non-canon cannons simply don't have the same bang).
Cynic project
QUOTE (Little Bill)
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Little Bill, how would you feel if I said Hitler was a hero? Or that FDR was a tyrant?

I would say that while you may be technically correct in your use of those terms for Hitler and FDR that you are probably not using the best terms to communicate your actual opinion.

And why do you say that? Both uses of the words tyrant and hero are true. Just as true as canon is true when talking of the rules, laws and setting of a game world. If you will change the meaning of hero and tyrant, why is canon so special of a word to you?

And as for the terms. You can find people who will say Hitler is a hero,or FDR is tyrant and mean them in the modern meanings. I am not one of them, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
Sammiel
in the beginning, god rolled a 20. and there was light!
Little Bill
If your goal is communication, you are usually better off using words as they are commonly used, rather than as they may be used for someone who is familiar with the 3rd or 4th definitions in the dictionary.
If your goal is to show off how smart you are, then by all means use the more obscure definitions and argue about the technical meaning of individual words - none of that will help you communicate anything meaningful, however, other than that you're a bit full of yourself.
That is why I said using Hero for Hitler and Tyrant for FDR probably aren't the best choices, unless you are a neo-Nazi and intend their common meanings.

The common meaning of "canon" to my mind is "scripture", and calling a role playing game scripture is in my view either disparaging of scripture or giving too much weight to what is, after all, only a game.

Now technically the use of "canon" as it appears in these forums is (for the most part) a correct modern usage - I do not dispute that - I merely wondered if anyone else was bothered about the more common meaning of canon.
Apparently no one else is, so carry on guys.
bitrunner
QUOTE (Sammiel)
in the beginning, god rolled a 20. and there was light!

fire your canon cannons at Sammiel!! wobble.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Little Bill)
If your goal is communication, you are usually better off using words as they are commonly used

May I remind you of the common usage of the word "run"?

~J
mfb
okay, enough of these semantics. let's get back to the original topic, which is... oh, right. carry on.
Sammiel
QUOTE (bitrunner @ Feb 16 2005, 10:42 PM)
fire your canon cannons at Sammiel!!  wobble.gif

yeah, how dare I bring up that game. should be something like, God used his pre-nerf chipjack expert driver with a heap of taskpool and there was light!

I wonder how much a rating 6 'Creation ex Nihilo' chip would cost.
toturi
QUOTE (Sammiel)
QUOTE (bitrunner @ Feb 16 2005, 10:42 PM)
fire your canon cannons at Sammiel!!   wobble.gif

yeah, how dare I bring up that game. should be something like, God used his pre-nerf chipjack expert driver with a heap of taskpool and there was light!

I wonder how much a rating 6 'Creation ex Nihilo' chip would cost.

I shall smite thee with my +5 vorpal Force 6 Greatest Rune Weapon Focus!

eek.gif Got to sit down... Too many game systems at a go...

By the way, you forgot His Enhanced Articulation.
Adam
QUOTE (mfb)
okay, enough of these semantics. let's get back to the original topic, which is... oh, right. carry on.

biggrin.gif
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