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Edward
I was just thinking about an ally spirit for a obeyifa (MITS p 20).

There where 2 things that where throwing me.

First what would be a logical form, I would probably expect to use inhabiting but what should I put it in.

Secondly sorcery is a free power with the spirit starting with sorcery skill equal to yours and a random spell from your selection. How will this interact with an obeyifa’s (or any conjurer’s) ally spirit.

Edward
tisoz
2) Unless you learn Sorcery, the ally will only have the potential for having Sorcery. You could later learn spells for the ally, but it will not start out with one. This has been discussed in the past, concerning Aspected Conjurers.
Eyeless Blond
Hmm. Here's an interesting thought. Say a shamanist or an elementalist gets an ally. Can the ally nearn spells that their master can't ever learn, like say a Fire elementalist's ally spirit learning Heal?
Lindt
Id guess youd have to teach it casting, or have someone else do it. Interesting idea...
Edward
So you think it would start with no spells and sorcery 0 but I could later use the ritual of change (the only way to improve a ally spirit) to teach it the sorcery skill and some spells that I can not cast. Could be dammed useful that could, karma intensive but very useful.

What shape do you think suites the obeyifa, I was thinking the homunculus rout as all there other spirits must be bound in a focus but what shape makes sense, the homunculus normally can move.

Edward
Endgame50
MITS p 110: The [ally] spirit may only have skills that its master possesses, and the ally's Skill Rating can never exceed the ratings of its master's skills...The spirit's master may later increase the spirit's skills up to a maximum equal to the creator's skill by paying Karma and performing a ritual of change.

No sorcery for the ally of a conjuror. No Conjuration either, for that matter.
tisoz
People can learn Sorcery skill without being able to cast spells. So, yes the ally can learn and use sorcery.
Kanada Ten
Inhabiting is a waste of time in most cases. not only limits the forms, but limits the usefulness. Really, I only suggest Inhabiting on guard Allys.

I'd make a human form, an animal form, and something unique to the character (such as a Dragon Slayer's having a shield form).
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Inhabiting is a waste of time in most cases. not only limits the forms, but limits the usefulness. Really, I only suggest Inhabiting on guard Allys.

I'd make a human form, an animal form, and something unique to the character (such as a Dragon Slayer's having a shield form).

Three forms right off the bat? Wow. Now there's a question for you: how much Karma do you usually spend on your ally right off the bat? I can't see anyone saving up the 50+ Karma all at once like they show in the book. Anyone else with me in that?

Also, what's up with that (IMO) stupid rule that knowledge skills cost as much to raise for allies as active skills? It is endlessly annoying to realize that it takes as much Karma to teach my ally how to cook as it does to take apart a computer. Anyone house rule this to have allies start with up to (Int * Force, max Int *5) knowledge skills taken from the master and make raising knowledge skills cheaper (1/2 cost), or is there something broken about it that I'm not seeing?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Three forms right off the bat? Wow. Now there's a question for you: how much Karma do you usually spend on your ally right off the bat? I can't see anyone saving up the 50+ Karma all at once like they show in the book. Anyone else with me in that?

Well, firstly, Edward was complaining about having too much karma with this GM, so I didn't feel I was pushing him too far. Personally, I've never made an ally as a player charatcer in 3rd edition, only as a GM - ah, the flexability - and then it's all about flavor.
tisoz
I like to give them 3-5 forms in addition to their true form. 1 karma per form seems cheap to me.
Endgame50
QUOTE (tisoz)
People can learn Sorcery skill without being able to cast spells. So, yes the ally can learn and use sorcery.

That's technically true. However, there are some criteria.

First, you must be awakened. Easy enough, right?

Second, the active magical skills that a given aspected magician can or cannot perform are listed in their individual descriptions. Not as true for the new skills presented in MITS, but that's FASA for you--it's true for Conjuring and Sorcery, which are the matters at hand here.

Third, SR3 page 160 states "Conjurers can use the Conjuring Skill, but cannot use Sorcery." I suppose you could interpret that as being able to learn the skill but not use it, but I think that's a rather blatant disregard of intent. Sorcery is, after all, supposed to be the knowledge of how to shape mana into spells. Without being able to do it, you're working off just theory, which would be the Sorcery Background Knowledge Skill.

Conjurers are the only magically active "class" that can't use sorcery in some form. Adepts can learn it (because they can use it), but they can only use it for astral combat. (Go figure)
Endgame50
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I'd make a human form, an animal form, and something unique to the character (such as a Dragon Slayer's having a shield form).

Yeah, same here. I've been kind of tempted to experiment more with mechanized forms, since they're within the realm of possibility--like Aracos turning into a motorcycle in Kenson's novels--but it's hard make balanced rulings with unlimited potential with things like that.

Like in the other ally thread, one person suggested giving an ally a fairlight excalibur form--the decker's happy he gets the best (stock) deck in the game for free. I suppose you'd have to reload the programs every time though. It would be horribly complex, too.

So, rather than open a can of worms, I usally go with one or two metahuman forms, an animal form, and something interesting. Like Elven Knight in Full Battle Armor, Human in plainclothes, Wolf, and claymore (for example). First form is free, so it's only +3 karma--which is a pittance compared to the total cost.
Kanada Ten
I've already given my thoughts on mechanical forms, but don't feel like searching for them. I have no problems with it, but the functionality is based on the ally's attributes and is not imbued with any actual electrical or even biological functionality. It can look like whatever, but it still works like an ally. For instance, a motorcycle form would still be limited to the ally's quickness (though, as a generous person, I use the x6 multiplier for "running"), and though it may sound like a viking, there's nothing under the hood (so to speak) - load is limited by Strength and so on.
Edward
Somebody said that adepts can learn sorcery for astral combat, I don’t know if that is true (or even makes since) but if it is could not a conjurer do the same thing so his ally can then learn sorcery (a very expensive way to do it).

As to the use of inhabiting it looses a lot of flexibility for no real gain. The thing is it makes since for the obeyifa given that all there summoning is into objects.

Edward
Endgame50
QUOTE (Edward @ Feb 23 2005, 04:43 AM)
Somebody said that adepts can learn sorcery for astral combat, I don’t know if that is true (or even makes since) but if it is could not a conjurer do the same thing so his ally can then learn sorcery (a very expensive way to do it).

I said so, it's on SR3 pg 168: "Adepts do not use magical skills to perform magic...(though they can use sorcery in astral combat; see p 174)" Where it later specifies that they can actually only use the astral combat specialization. I don't think it makes sense either, really.

SR3 pg 160 explicitly states conjurers can't use sorcery at all, but I think I'd allow them to use the astral combat specialization, same as adepts--seems to be a more on the fly channel mana through your astral form thing. By that same token though, it's still useless for spellcasting, which is another specialization altogether.
Cynic project
"Ally spirit, No I am not going to have sex with it" So you are not,not going to have sex with it?
Chibu
QUOTE (Cynic project)
"Ally spirit, No I am not going to have sex with it" So you are not,not going to have sex with it?

actually, using 'no' at the beginning of a sentence, as an interjection is proper. There should have, however, been a comma after 'No'.
Endgame50
This has been your grammar lesson for today. There will be a pop quiz at the end of this thread, please have a sharpened #2 pencil ready.
Edward
QUOTE (Chibu)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Feb 23 2005, 05:24 PM)
"Ally spirit, No I am not going to have sex with it" So you are not,not going to have sex with it?

actually, using 'no' at the beginning of a sentence, as an interjection is proper. There should have, however, been a comma after 'No'.

On reading this I tried to add said comma but it won’t let me edit the title.

Edward
Tanka
QUOTE (Edward @ Feb 24 2005, 10:16 AM)
QUOTE (Chibu @ Feb 24 2005, 07:43 AM)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Feb 23 2005, 05:24 PM)
"Ally spirit, No I am not going to have sex with it" So you are not,not going to have sex with it?

actually, using 'no' at the beginning of a sentence, as an interjection is proper. There should have, however, been a comma after 'No'.

On reading this I tried to add said comma but it won’t let me edit the title.

Edward

Near as I can tell, no forum allows title editing. Bit of a pain, innit?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Endgame50)
This has been your grammar lesson for today. There will be a pop quiz at the end of this thread, please have a sharpened #2 pencil ready.

Will there be bubbles? I like bubbles... biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (tanka)
QUOTE (Edward @ Feb 24 2005, 10:16 AM)
QUOTE (Chibu @ Feb 24 2005, 07:43 AM)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Feb 23 2005, 05:24 PM)
"Ally spirit, No I am not going to have sex with it" So you are not,not going to have sex with it?

actually, using 'no' at the beginning of a sentence, as an interjection is proper. There should have, however, been a comma after 'No'.

On reading this I tried to add said comma but it won’t let me edit the title.

Edward

Near as I can tell, no forum allows title editing. Bit of a pain, innit?

PHPBB does. Although, it is a bit of a pain becames of some very strange bugs.

On the subject of mechanical forms, a spirit that looks like some sort of bleeding edge prototype drone would be cool. While it wouldn't have the same functionality as the real thing it would be just as useful as any other spirit and it would confuse mundanes.

It is much better for a mundane witness to report being attacked by a strange rigger with a prototype antoroform than it is for the witness to report being attacked by a strange magician with an ally spirit.

Give it some combat skills and practical weapons. Guns, katanas, grenades; What it lacks in sorcery it can make up in firepower. Hmmm..... katanas.... Can an Ally bond a weapon focus?

tisoz
What about using a drone as an homunculus?
mintcar
Outch. There seems to be a number of questions that always arise whenever ally spirits are on topic. On mechanized forms, I´m with Kanada 10. The drone homunculus has been covered before, and the answer then, I believe was that the spirit would only be able to maneuver the drones limbs (animate it), so any function other than that would have to be controled by a set of buttons on the drones chest or something. Plus it would have to have the skills needed.
Modesitt
I've given my ally spirit nothing but humanoid forms so far. More specifically, I've given him the forms of my fellow runners, our main johnson, our current main enemy, and the form of our enemy's murdered lover.

No, none of them know about that. All they know is that the ally spirit can assume my form and that of the dead lover.

No, I don't intend to tell them. My ally spirit is my insurance policy.
Endgame50
Just make sure it (and therefore you) have good ettiquette and negotiation--for the acting needed for the ruses. *grin*
Fortune
I don't recall if this is covered in caon, but would an Ally Spirit automatically know it's summoner's native (or other) language? Or is this something that would have to be taught to it?
Critias
It might get free language skill points based on it's Int, like anyone else (but I'd say they're very likely to then be spent on languages it's creator knows, if that's the case).
Fortune
I know there have been canon examples of Ally Spirits using verbal communication. There is no doubt that they would be limited to only language(s) that the summoner knows, as with all their skills. I just don't recall if the actual mechanics of this is ever mentioned.
Eyeless Blond
The only canon rule I can find that even hints at language skills is the (IMO very very dumb) fact that Knowledge Skills (and therefore language skills) cost the exact same for an ally as Active Skills. I really have no idea why such a rule exists, other than to ensure that ally spirits will never actually know anything, ever.
TheQuestionMan
Besides relationships with Spirits are so ephemeral. rotfl.gif

Cheers wink.gif

QM
Xirces
QUOTE (TheQuestionMan)
Besides relationships with Spirits are so ephemeral. rotfl.gif

I wouldn't say that. I've had a long-standing relationship with Jack Daniels. In many ways that's the most fulfilling of my life.
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