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Tziluthi
Reading through Man & Machine, it occurred to me that cyberware is quite expensive, especially at higher grades. In fact, when you get down to beta-ware, any decent piece of gear is so damn expensive, it's quite difficult to think of people that would have both the money and some sort of use for the equipment. Certainly not any individual, but a corporation, one that rakes in billions of dollars each year and has important security concerns, they certainly fit the bill. Or do they?

Corporations are all too willing to fire loyal, hardworking employees in the name of the bottom line, but they also seem very willing to shell out big dosh on delta-grade cyberware for their security teams, high-outlay, high-upkeep cyberzombies that end up getting terminal cancer after a year, and expensive, difficult to maintain cyber-enhanced paranimals.

Although they make for challenging shadowruns, I just can't get around the idea of corporations, entities controlled by apparently inhumanly greedy stockholders, turning around and more or less burning cash on stuff that isn't actually making money for them, and isn't actually all that effective or long-term, either.

In any case, what do GMs think about this? Has anybody ever considered this concept, and purposefully kept esoteric forms of security out of their games?
toturi
I see cyberzombies as R & D for both magic and cybernetics. It is a sort of venture capitalism, high risk, high capital outlay, potentially immense power.
Capt. Dave
I don't have a cyberzombie in every corp facility, no wink.gif

I don't see a problem with deltaware for elite security teams guarding data/equipment/people that is worth more than the 'ware.

As for cyberzombies, yeah they die quickly now, but with research, who knows who far this magiscience can advance? Think of most major inventions: there were failures before it worked well.

Cyberanimals, they work for free. They may attempt to kill you, but they work for free. After the initial investment, all you have to pay for is handlers and food (or runners)

Not to mention, corporations spend millions on stuff that doesn't raise profit. Junkets, company expense accounts, "perks",...the Whore Fund...

That being said, I feel cyberzombies and deltaware guards, as well as cybered juggernauts and blackberry cats are usually restricted to the more...restricted facilities.
Large Mike

As a defensive measure, I agree, a CZ is a waste of money. As an offensive measure, though. If built correctly, they are the most versatile armor one can field, capable of things other cavalry vehicles (because admit it, they're in the same class as many vehicles) couldn't even dream of. I could see them tearing the hell out of rebel encampments and rival corporate installations like nothing else on earth.
RunnerPaul
Also, hasn't there been some strong hinting that some of the funding for all the different corporations' CZ projects came from some sinister third party source?
toturi
By the way, there is nothing to say that cyberzombies do not or cannot live long and prosper. Going by the cyberzombie rules in M&M, they can last quite long.
Edward
For les than 1,500,000 nuyen you can build a real shit kicker troll sized arthreform that will mince most cyber zombies worth 5 times that figure and its twinkled out robotic pilot will probably behave better as well.

You can build it stronger, faster and better behaved for less cash in a far cheaper facility. Its maintenance costs will be lower, if it is damaged beyond the ability to operate repairs can wait will no chance that it will just die on you. It can be modified to operate in hostile environments for a fraction of the cost even having the ability to operate in hard vacuum. They have no psychological problems, they donít mind being shoved in tight spaces. They are not vulnerable to attack from the astral including FAB. And there shelf life is far longer.

And the public relations department wonít have to worry about activists complaining you turned a human into a monster or the pollution on the astral plain.

All in all a far more effective security option.

<End sales pitch.>

Given all that I would say the only reason a cyber zombie would be used as a security asset is that the R&D department that maid him has finished there experiments on him.

Edward
Aes
Cyberzombies are the dotcoms of megacorps. You gotta have a few CZs to toss around, or you simply aren't in the "in" crowd. nyahnyah.gif
Grinder
I go with the R&D solution. Cyberzombies may be seen as the next step in the use of cyberware - they're able to go along with a lot more cyber than nornmal people. If the corps are able to use the cybermantie on a braoader base, there is a big market to cover. For reaching that, they have to wipe out the negative side effects of cybermantie, a goal they can only reach through research.


And remember: "You need to spend money to make money".
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
There's also the psychological and morale implications of being a foot soldier facing one of those monstrosities.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Tziluthi)
Although they make for challenging shadowruns, I just can't get around the idea of corporations, entities controlled by apparently inhumanly greedy stockholders, turning around and more or less burning cash on stuff that isn't actually making money for them, and isn't actually all that effective or long-term, either.

I see you don't work for a large corporation.

Trust me, it is VERY plausible that they blow large sums of money on cyberzombies who really aren't worth it. VERY, VERY plausible. Don't worry about it.
akarenti
Plus, Cyberzombies are kind of a byproduct of more general immortality research, which would be worth a bit more than than the 'zombies.
Charon
If we go by what we know of Cybermancy so far, it's not really a big corporation cash cow baby. Rituals are known by groups like Ordo Maximus and Aztlan's blood mage with agenda that include more than the bottom line.

Also, I feel the real point of cybermancy is the "keep alive people who should be dead" part, not the "Allows to cram more cyberware in a body than the soul can accept part". What I mean is that storywise, when the team meet their first cyberzombie, it shouldn't be just a megacorporate goon. It should be a megacorporate goon that they have killed once before...

As for Megacorp sinking ungodly amount of nuyen in a project without return on investment, yeah, they wouldn't do that for too long. They would try it for sometime though. I'd say from the moment Cybermancy appeared circa 2057 up to about 2062, a few Megas sanlk tons og cash in the creation of Cyberzombies for the sake of creating super-agents. Their own "Six million dollar man". After that, interest should cool off some, depending on the nature of the corp and depending on the improvement to standard cybermancy you want to introduce in your game.

I'm thinking the fluff piece of text about wedge is a reasonable depiction of what they'd do with the tech : Use Cybermancy on company men (runner tightly affiliated to them while still somewhat deniable) and use them as super enforcers.
Fortune
Hatchetman, not Wedge.
Edward
QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate)
There's also the psychological and morale implications of being a foot soldier facing one of those monstrosities.

Try the psychological affect of a troll size tank with 18 vehicle armour and and a bolted on shoulder mounted weapon.

And if I start playing with the drones to much, well remember the arcology.

Edward
Cynic project
Who really think that SK pays the listed cost for anything? Who thinks any AAA pays retail cost on anything?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Edward)
QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate @ Feb 21 2005, 09:37 PM)
There's also the psychological and morale implications of being a foot soldier facing one of those monstrosities.

Try the psychological affect of a troll size tank with 18 vehicle armour and and a bolted on shoulder mounted weapon.

And if I start playing with the drones to much, well remember the arcology.

Edward

Reminds me of the ED-209 from Robocop. "You have 10 seconds to comply..." By that point, you are looking at tactics to take out a robotic tank rather than a cyberzombie. Jabberwockies and Zappers come to mind.
BitBasher
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Edward @ Feb 21 2005, 12:45 PM)
QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate @ Feb 21 2005, 09:37 PM)
There's also the psychological and morale implications of being a foot soldier facing one of those monstrosities.

Try the psychological affect of a troll size tank with 18 vehicle armour and and a bolted on shoulder mounted weapon.

And if I start playing with the drones to much, well remember the arcology.

Edward

Reminds me of the ED-209 from Robocop. "You have 10 seconds to comply..." By that point, you are looking at tactics to take out a robotic tank rather than a cyberzombie. Jabberwockies and Zappers come to mind.

Actually my players would be laughing their ass off thinking someone built that silly monstrosity instead of just using a Steel Lynx wink.gif
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Feb 21 2005, 08:38 AM)
QUOTE (Tziluthi @ Feb 21 2005, 04:26 AM)
Although they make for challenging shadowruns, I just can't get around the idea of corporations, entities controlled by apparently inhumanly greedy stockholders, turning around and more or less burning cash on stuff that isn't actually making money for them, and isn't actually all that effective or long-term, either.

I see you don't work for a large corporation.

Trust me, it is VERY plausible that they blow large sums of money on cyberzombies who really aren't worth it. VERY, VERY plausible. Don't worry about it.

Hell, I still remember the time my coworker told me that the table I was sitting at cost $50,000! It was a really nice table, but I think the execs coulda got by with something a bit cheaper.

Not plausible. Reality eek.gif
hahnsoo
Back to the original topic, there are only 3 megacorps (total, and all of them are AAA) that have cyberzombies in our campaign, and only Novatech has no magic-specific agenda for having them. Do they throw away money on it? Sure. Are the cyberzombies damn scary? Oooooh, yeah. I don't think our characters in all of our campaigns throughout the years have taken down one of them yet, except for the Cyberzombie that was in "stasis mode" in a healing chamber that they unplugged and filled with concrete.
akarenti
Also, think of it this way:

You have a senior corp strike team member. He's one of the best the corp has, and has already been put back together a few times, and is chocked full of Beta and Deltaware--enough to keep his physical abilities on par or exceeding a guy half his age.

As this guy gets older, his ability to do his job is going to start falling off, and he's going to need more and more cyber to keeping himself going. At some point, he's going to get get blown up again, or just get too old for the job the 'corp has invested so much into 'ware for.

Now, the corp has a few options--one of which would be cybermancy. If nothing else, cybermancy gives the corp a couple more years with this top "troubleshooter" type guy, without too much extra investment (compared to his salary and enhancements he has recieved already).

Plus, if the magicians who create the ritual (I'm assuming each subject would require their own personal formulae--like a surger plan and such) find some way to further reduce the catastrophic drain, more effectively combine ritual members, find a new type of ritual material that aids in this level of magic, etc., then that discovery could be tested and applied outside of cybermantic magic, or even a new surgical technique for implantation, which could turn a profit, not to mention get the Cybermantic Group on step closer to making true immortality a possiblity.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Who really think that SK pays the listed cost for anything? Who thinks any AAA pays retail cost on anything?

As has been addressed in other threads, I think they pay at least the listed cost if not more for Delta MBW-IV and the like. For most gear, though, that is a point.

~J
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (akarenti)
Also, think of it this way:

You have a senior corp strike team member. He's one of the best the corp has, and has already been put back together a few times, and is chocked full of Beta and Deltaware--enough to keep his physical abilities on par or exceeding a guy half his age.

As this guy gets older, his ability to do his job is going to start falling off, and he's going to need more and more cyber to keeping himself going. At some point, he's going to get get blown up again, or just get too old for the job the 'corp has invested so much into 'ware for.

Now, the corp has a few options--one of which would be cybermancy. If nothing else, cybermancy gives the corp a couple more years with this top "troubleshooter" type guy, without too much extra investment (compared to his salary and enhancements he has recieved already).

Plus, if the magicians who create the ritual (I'm assuming each subject would require their own personal formulae--like a surger plan and such) find some way to further reduce the catastrophic drain, more effectively combine ritual members, find a new type of ritual material that aids in this level of magic, etc., then that discovery could be tested and applied outside of cybermantic magic, or even a new surgical technique for implantation, which could turn a profit, not to mention get the Cybermantic Group on step closer to making true immortality a possiblity.

If this dude is so damn good, he's getting moved into my training department when he's too old or gets injured to the point where he can't operate in his normal capacity.

Gotta think for the long term and maintain a good "farm system" so-to-speak.

hahnsoo
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
If this dude is so damn good, he's getting moved into my training department when he's too old or gets injured to the point where he can't operate in his normal capacity.

Gotta think for the long term and maintain a good "farm system" so-to-speak.

I think there is a good point, though, in the above post, especially if the "senior corp badass" person was recently brutalized by a shadowrun team and put on some extreme life support measures. There would be some situations where the person would be hospitalized for the rest of his (short) life unless he was put through a cybermancy, similar to the situation with Hatchetman. The instances would be rare, but enough that the corps would have a handful of guinea pigs to use.

Or the guinea pigs are experienced shadowrunners (i.e. Hatchetman), not on the company payroll per se. It sounds like a Faustian deal that a shadowrunner would agree to.
Edward
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Feb 21 2005, 01:01 PM)
QUOTE (Edward @ Feb 21 2005, 12:45 PM)
QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate @ Feb 21 2005, 09:37 PM)
There's also the psychological and morale implications of being a foot soldier facing one of those monstrosities.

Try the psychological affect of a troll size tank with 18 vehicle armour and and a bolted on shoulder mounted weapon.

And if I start playing with the drones to much, well remember the arcology.

Edward

Reminds me of the ED-209 from Robocop. "You have 10 seconds to comply..." By that point, you are looking at tactics to take out a robotic tank rather than a cyberzombie. Jabberwockies and Zappers come to mind.

Actually my players would be laughing their ass off thinking someone built that silly monstrosity instead of just using a Steel Lynx wink.gif

There are several things my drones can do better than a steal lynx.

Most notably they have humanoid arms. This allows them to changing weapons with greater speed and flexibility as well as manipulating doorknobs, touch pads and planting explosive devices. Also the humanoid legs low them to traverse terrain even more rugged than the steal lynx, for example it can climb a latter.

QUOTE ( hahnsoo)

Back to the original topic, there are only 3 megacorps (total, and all of them are AAA) that have cyberzombies in our campaign, and only Novatech has no magic-specific agenda for having them. Do they throw away money on it? Sure. Are the cyberzombies damn scary? Oooooh, yeah. I don't think our characters in all of our campaigns throughout the years have taken down one of them yet, except for the Cyberzombie that was in "stasis mode" in a healing chamber that they unplugged and filled with concrete.


Interesting point about the ot being able to kill them.

Our party has killed 4 in the past few runs. The first was badly damaged by a spirit pack attack (3 watchers a city spirit and a sylph) before the rigger shot him with something vehicle mounted. The numbers 2 and 3 where in vans the rigger hit with AV missiles. The last was killed by a force 9 spirit I dam near killed myself summoning because we where out of missiles.

Edward
FrostyNSO
Our group hasn't run into 4 over the past few evers. wink.gif

Hell, I've only used one in a run once. There's not much a cyberzombie can do that a good drone network, or a decent team with good tactics can do just as good, or even better.

Except, of course, scare the crap outta a team of shadowrunners. cyber.gif
The White Dwarf
Its been awhile so my memory may fail me, but these guys are dual natured right. Which means that, unlike a drone, one of these could wade into a magically oriented situation and come out on top. Which makes it the potential equivalent of both a drone team and an initiation group; rolled up in a single entity that has no hidden agendas of its own. That makes it attractive on a different level than simply being a super sam. Building a whole fleet of them is not logical, but 1 or 2 in operation at the highest levels is not that far fetched. Especically in the paranoid and dystopic setting of shadowrun. Corportations exist to make money, but theyre not the most effecient things in the world. And at the very top most of them are beholden to the whims of individuals with their own non-logical/rational thoughts and worries. Seeing one of these show up in a campaign is an event in and of itself, and it shouldnt happen in every campaign. But its not unheard of or totally out of line either; which is why its one of the whispered tales in the backs of the dark bars runners hang out in, an urban legend in its own right.
toturi
Whatever astral threat that the drone may not be able to handle will not be able to hurt it either. The only astral advantage that a cyberzombie may have is that it can detect an astral intruder while a drone cannot.
Grinder
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Except, of course, scare the crap outta a team of shadowrunners. cyber.gif

And they do this job very well. cool.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE
There are several things my drones can do better than a steal lynx.

Most notably they have humanoid arms. This allows them to changing weapons with greater speed and flexibility as well as manipulating doorknobs, touch pads and planting explosive devices. Also the humanoid legs low them to traverse terrain even more rugged than the steal lynx, for example it can climb a latter.
All for the price of many steel lynxes. Just buy a few Lynxes and Ares Guardians and a cheap anthro to follow them around. You can afford a whole stable of drones for that cost. "Cool" =! "Practical".
Kagetenshi
Steel Lynxes are mostly useless. If you're in a fixed area, run some tracks and use the Sentinel P; if you need to be on the move, rotodrones beat the pants off of the Lynxes.

~J
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Steel Lynxes are mostly useless. If you're in a fixed area, run some tracks and use the Sentinel P; if you need to be on the move, rotodrones beat the pants off of the Lynxes.

~J

I was talking about offense not defense, but hey. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
That's where the rotodrones come in. Just getting the Lynxes where you need them to be without getting the HTR teams called in is an adventure in and of itself. A rotodrone you can fly into place with comparative ease, and it's still more versatile thereafter.

~J
BitBasher
Actually I'd never want ot use a rotodrone indoors, I just think that's a disaster waiting to happen...
Kagetenshi
As long as you have clearance for the rotors, it's less risky than the Lynx falling down the stairs.

That being said, the only time I've used rotodrones indoors was not exactly by choice. Not much you can do when a teammate is being mauled by modified dogs.

~J
akarenti
QUOTE (toturi)
Whatever astral threat that the drone may not be able to handle will not be able to hurt it either. The only astral advantage that a cyberzombie may have is that it can detect an astral intruder while a drone cannot.


That's actually how the only cyberzombie to make an appearance in one of my games was killed. The CZ was a street sam who was sicked on the players before (beaten badly, with a lot of his obvious 'ware removed by Katana). The group that hired him collected him and made a few bargains with some of the Free Spirits they were aware of to 'zombie him.

He was pretty weak--more of a "we can do this" experiment by a small cabal (which was more concerned with ritual conjuring and slapping allies in high tech constructs). But he was still a challenge for the entire party (~4 60 karma characters--first time players mostly, with non-human Karma Pools, so their characters weren't uber).

Anyway, eventually the team was trapped in an elevator, with the 'zombie on top in the elevator shaft. Then the mage remembered he could astrally project (once again, newer players), did so, and kicked the cyberzombie's ass.
TeOdio
Hmm, Cyber Zombies. I've never really found much use for them in my campaign. I like the idea well enough, but if I were to invest that much time creating one it would have to be something much better than a stock goon. I've built up a rep in my campaign for a cybered troll NPC with a few spell anchors on him so much that people think he's the toughest son of a gun this side of Lord Torgo. I always find it amusing, as only one person has had to face him. He's no cyber zombie, but my players fear him as if he were, even though it's be reputation only. I guess as a gamemaster the main reason I don't use cyber zombies is because they ARE zombies. It seems to me a stretch to give them any real motivation for doing anything other than what they are told to do. And since they seem so uber, most GM's usually keep them as either a "tough" opponent or as a plot device (from my experience anyway.)
Who would use them? Anyone that could afford to. A Megacorporation of AAA size would have monumental waste of money, just like any government. An unscrupulous stock holder or Exec (Like the late Sr. Oscuro from AZT) could certainly divert enough money with either influence or plain old financial shenanegins to create a cyberzombie shock squad / bodyguard unit / special ops team. I mean, as a GM, I think a couple of them running around would be a hell of a lot more frightening then just one. Hell, it would be great if there was a rumor that your PC's nemesis group of company men were cyber zombies, whether they were or not.
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
Edward
<Begin sales pitch Q&A>

QUOTE
Hell, I've only used one in a run once. There's not much a cyberzombie can do that a good drone network, or a decent team with good tactics can do just as good, or even better.

Except, of course, scare the crap outta a team of shadowrunners. 


And after the first few rounds bounce of our arthreforms vehicular armor you will likely find brown stains in the pants of your newly delivered corpses. A photovoltaic option is available and some of the best graphic artists in the business have worked on the design to maximize psychological effect. Also the ruthenium option has proven quite intimidating.

QUOTE
ts been awhile so my memory may fail me, but these guys are dual natured right. Which means that, unlike a drone, one of these could wade into a magically oriented situation and come out on top


QUOTE
Whatever astral threat that the drone may not be able to handle will not be able to hurt it either. The only astral advantage that a cyberzombie may have is that it can detect an astral intruder while a drone cannot.


This is quite true, a CZ in astral combat is asking for trouble. Without special training they are all but blind, also there limited astral movement means they are an easy target for a projecting magician with spells. I am aware of there much vaunted magical resistance but it is far from immunity.

QUOTE
QUOTE
There are several things my drones can do better than a steal lynx.

Most notably they have humanoid arms. This allows them to changing weapons with greater speed and flexibility as well as manipulating doorknobs, touch pads and planting explosive devices. Also the humanoid legs low them to traverse terrain even more rugged than the steal lynx, for example it can climb a latter.

All for the price of many steel lynxes. Just buy a few Lynxes and Ares Guardians and a cheap anthro to follow them around. You can afford a whole stable of drones for that cost. "Cool" =! "Practical".

much is maid of the adaptability of the steel lynx and it is a valuable asset however out arthroform is even more versatile. The lynx can negotiate stares but slowly our arthreform heavy security robots can cover any type of terrain including stares ladders or even a moderately difficult cliff face with the speed you would expect from a metahuman security officer.


If you want non arthreform drones as well we do offer a heavily modified CSD Dalmatian for close quarters security work. Our modifications make it easily a mach for the far more expensive guardian. Its vectored thrust system grants it far safer operation than your rotor craft witch will rarely survive a glancing impact with a wall. It is true that the modified Dalmatian engine has a tendency to over heat but the replacements are easily and cheaply obtained. Our customizations do not have the problem of the engine exploding.

<End sales pitch Q&A>

Edward
toturi
A drone does not usually have double digit Body (with Trauma Dampener and medikits) that can stage down Deadly damage to nothing, even if he is unarmoured. Say that a Runner Calls a Shot to Bypass Armour to the drone, the power is halved and Level staged down, but can a Body 4 stage down a Serious to nothing? Mr Zombie can.
FrostyNSO
If I was in charge of some corp's cybertech division, I would search out Troll metavariants (Cyclops, Giant) for that very reason =)
hahnsoo
I guess it is time to break out the rail guns...
BitBasher
I think the "call a shot to bypass armor on an armored vehicle" loophole is a serious argument crutch. No GM in his right mind would allow that, especially since it's not even in the books, just in the FAQ.
Kagetenshi
FAQ ain't canon, but IIRC that particular crime against reason got errataed into the book.

~J
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
FAQ ain't canon, but IIRC that particular crime against reason got errataed into the book.

~J

It's not in the errata, I just checked. Thank God.
Kagetenshi
Phew.

~J
Edward
QUOTE (toturi)
A drone does not usually have double digit Body (with Trauma Dampener and medikits) that can stage down Deadly damage to nothing, even if he is unarmoured. Say that a Runner Calls a Shot to Bypass Armour to the drone, the power is halved and Level staged down, but can a Body 4 stage down a Serious to nothing? Mr Zombie can.

Although it is true that a arthreform of this size will be severely damaged by and attack that can penetrate its armour the armour we use is impenetrable to any man portable weapon with the possible exception of the modified auto canons some trolls have started to use And then only if loading specialised ante-vehicular ammunition.

Combined with a robotic pilot program that allows it to dodge incoming fire with greater proficiency than the fastest metahumans and contingency mauver controllers that ensure the robot will operate at full efficiency even if it has a significant amount of damage we are confidant that our product has superior battlefield lifespan than even the most heavily armoured cyber zombie.

<end sales pitch>

I subscribe to the idea that in order to make a called hot to bypass armor you need to make a perception check to locate a weakness in the armor. Against a metahuman not wearing a helmet this is easy, the head is unarmored you can shoot that. Against a vehicle with obvious armor I would set the target at about 4+armor value. If I allowed it at all

Edward
The White Dwarf
The astral avoidance of drones is potentially misleading. Consider than a spirit could manifest, attack, and unmanifest; yes not all in one action but as a tactic. There are situations where such a thing could/would seriously hamper a drone. Against a CZ the astral target doesnt have this option, there is no where to hide. They can leave at astral speeds, but running away also neutralizes their threat. The CZ will usually far outlast a drone as well.

But any game-situation-mechanics situation aside, there are *people* involved here. Say you are the CEO of a Megacorp. You want to make money. But you also want to sleep without fearing for your life. And while it may not be econmoical to produce a legion of CZs, sprining a little nuyen for some R&D into *one* to say, patrol the summer house while its not out "recovering its design costs" isnt so bad. And itll really take the worry off knowing that it wont lose loyalty or stop or run away or anything else like the guards over at the accounting center did last week. Theres psychological reasoning on both ends; but again: runner urban legend, not rent-a-cop replacement.
toturi
QUOTE (Edward)
[I subscribe to the idea that in order to make a called hot to bypass armor you need to make a perception check to locate a weakness in the armor. Against a metahuman not wearing a helmet this is easy, the head is unarmored you can shoot that. Against a vehicle with obvious armor I would set the target at about 4+armor value. If I allowed it at all

Edward

Your view is not supported by the FAQ, but it is your game.
Fortune
The FAQ doesn't specifically mention bypassing Vehicle or Drone armor. But it doesn't preclude it either.

I solve the whole Called Shot problem in my games by only allowing them for effect, or to hit specific things like tires. I don't even allow staging up the damage level any more, because I figure that this is the effect of a good, or well-aimed shot.
Edward
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Edward @ Feb 23 2005, 05:01 PM)
[I subscribe to the idea that in order to make a called hot to bypass armor you need to make a perception check to locate a weakness in the armor. Against a metahuman not wearing a helmet this is easy, the head is unarmored you can shoot that. Against a vehicle with obvious armor I would set the target at about 4+armor value. If I allowed it at all

Edward

Your view is not supported by the FAQ, but it is your game.

It just doesnít feal right that bypassing the armour should have the same difficulty wether the target is wearing a vest with plates or full body mill speck. Or if it is an APC with armour 3 or a tank with armour 30.

At the same time removing called shots altogether means the SL2 provides no benefit.

Edward
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