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GlassJaw
I haven't made a character yet that had any Edges or Flaws (I've been pretty much avoiding them) but I've been reading about them a bit more lately. What are some common choices?

Which ones are very annoying in play and which ones are flat-out cheesy? Which ones are worth taking? (both good and bad)
lorthazar
it all depends on what you want to do. No matter the archetype Good looking and Knows it, Good Reputation and Friendly Face are just useful to ignore. Well connected is worth every point as is Ambidexterity (which is cheese but fun).

For flaws you would be surprised how many of my deckers take sensitive nural structure.
Kagetenshi
Oh, there are plenty. It depends heavily on who your character is, both in terms of role and personality. Bonus Attribute Point and Exceptional Attribute are ones I almost always take, and Vehicle Empathy for Riggers. Flaws typically run towards phobias or allergies.

~J
Dawnshadow
Edges:
Quick Healer/Fast Healing. Whichever it's called. I don't have the book on hand.

The boosted and exceptional attributes. Great for designing a specific concept, little bit scary as far as how powerful they can be, if done right.

Flaws:
Whatever goes. Phobias seem common with my group.. between 3 PCs, there are 4 phobias.. Sammie with a lightning phobia, shaman-adept with a mild phobia of priests and a major one of churches (backstory: he nearly got burned at the stake)

Haven't run into any that are annoying in play yet.. but all of the ones I've taken have been just naturally part of the character. Build the personality first, then find the ones that fit and it solves most of the annoyance problems, I've found
hahnsoo
If a flaw doesn't really create a disadvantage within the context of the game, it probably is either a cheesy flaw or a flaw chosen to flesh out the character.

As far as edges, I'd be very wary of choosing Aptitude, if you are concerned about cheese. It tends to be one of the more powerful edges if your GM allows it.

I'm always fond of the Toughness edge myself. One of our characters has Allergy: Severe, Citrus Fruits, which makes him a little hard to live with at meals. We're thinking about giving him some sort of compulsive/paranoid flaw when it comes to cooking or eating.
Smiley
High pain tolerance is a good one to have, as is full ambidexterity. As for flaws... I usually pick ones that will give my character depth by fitting in with his back story.
LinaInverse
If your GM allows it, get Skill Aptitude on your primary combat skill. Nothing beats it; period.
DocMortand
*cough* Yeah, it's definately the way to go, IF your GM lets you.

I let Lina get away with one when I was just starting as a GM...I ain't allowing it again. *grumble*
Modesitt
One of the most common flaws in my experience is Enemy.

It's not like it's a real flaw. It just means your character gets more 'screen time' so to speak.
Pthgar
If you are a Ghost Hunter type, Bravery and Natural Immunity (HMHVV) are really useful.

As for flaws I like Day Job but it can be pure Velveeta if your GM let's you take the money with out having your job complicate your life.
ef31415
The cheese factor is pretty high all around, but I'd reccomend a simpler approach. Start out with a concept, and a story, and take flaws and attributes that follow that story. That will make the GM's job easier, by giving more plot hooks and things to play with.

In terms of effectiveness, it matters more how the attibutes fit in with the character concept.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Modesitt @ Feb 21 2005, 04:46 PM)
One of the most common flaws in my experience is Enemy.

It's not like it's a real flaw.  It just means your character gets more 'screen time' so to speak.

This has already been discussed in a previous thread, but it can be a very annoying flaw if it frags up an otherwise perfect run. It depends on how the GM uses the flaw, really... some GMs simply use it to make existing enemies more powerful (more willing to cooperate together, more resources, etc.), others make sure that you (read: Your Team) are paying for the flaw in a very real way.
Shockwave_IIc
Common Edges.
Perceptive
Ambidextrous 3
Focused Concentration
Night Vision
Bonus Attribute
Exceptional Attribute

The last 2 are very common.

Flaws?
Enemy's
Phobia's
Day Job's (or as i prefer to call them "Commitments")

I tend find that Flaws are more fitting to a character and thus you get a broader spectrum of them over edges.
hyzmarca
If you're playing after YOTC (specificly more than 10-WIL weeks after) Chronic Osteocspus is the way to go. A -10 point flaw that gives you Pain Resistance 3 and +1 to all unarmed attacks in exchange for being a slow healer (And 10-Willpower weeks of +4 TNs). Very cheesy. Great for a Minotaur Adept.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
If you're playing after YOTC (specificly more than 10-WIL weeks after) Chronic Osteocspus is the way to go. A -10 point flaw that gives you Pain Resistance 3 and +1 to all unarmed attacks in exchange for being a slow healer (And 10-Willpower weeks of +4 TNs). Very cheesy. Great for a Minotaur Adept.

Well, you still would have to pay somehow for the dubious "privilege" to be a SURGE changeling at character generation, either as a GM-sanctioned SURGE roll or paying 5 points at character generation. Not to mention that Chronic Osteocuspus is NOT a fun thing to have. You wouldn't be able to hug or "get intimate" with anyone, for starters, you have to buy modified clothing and armor, and I'm very sure that you will be ostracized by others.
Sandoval Smith
I like:
Perfect Time and Perceptive myself. Flaws tend to vary wildly depending on the character, but phobias can offer fun RP options, as well as compulsions. Really, what flaws and edges you take should really depend on the character concept.
GlassJaw
Cool ideas everyone. Thanks.

Just out of curiosity, what are some phobias you have taken or seen in play?
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
If you're playing after YOTC (specificly more than 10-WIL weeks after) Chronic Osteocspus is the way to go. A -10 point flaw that gives you Pain Resistance 3 and +1 to all unarmed attacks in exchange for being a slow healer (And 10-Willpower weeks of +4 TNs). Very cheesy. Great for a Minotaur Adept.

And your PC also suffers from a condition that hurts like hell.

QUOTE (Modesitt)
One of the most common flaws in my experience is Enemy.

It's not like it's a real flaw.  It just means your character gets more 'screen time' so to speak.

Enemy? Hmm.... Enemy... *checks his copy of SR3Comp, and specifically the Edges & Flaws Table on page 31* Nope. No "Enemy" flaw there.

There's an "Extra Enemy" Flaw, and a "Hunted" Flaw.

If you're going to criticize something, at least do it correctly.
Sandoval Smith
I have a character with a severe phobia of bug spirits (he finished growin up in the Chicago CZ) but I extend that to him being jumpy around ALL bugs.

Any kind of phobia of dogs can be interesting if someplace you're making a run on has parananimal guards. Water can also be a good one.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Enemy? Hmm.... Enemy... *checks his copy of SR3Comp, and specifically the Edges & Flaws Table on page 31* Nope. No "Enemy" flaw there.

There's an "Extra Enemy" Flaw, and a "Hunted" Flaw.

If you're going to criticize something, at least do it correctly.

You can call a pistol as a "gun" or even a "slugthrower" and people will still know what you are talking about. Since most people know that when you say "Enemy Flaw", you really mean "Extra Enemy Flaw", it seems to be an accepted usage of the text. Ah, semantics.

Back to the topic, I currently play a character who has a mild phobia of Shapeshifters, due to a bad tangle with a Shapeshifter prior. "I shot him with 6 bullets from each revolver, and it STILL didn't die!"
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Feb 21 2005, 05:22 PM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Feb 21 2005, 07:07 PM)
Enemy? Hmm.... Enemy... *checks his copy of SR3Comp, and specifically the Edges & Flaws Table on page 31* Nope. No "Enemy" flaw there.

There's an "Extra Enemy" Flaw, and a "Hunted" Flaw.

If you're going to criticize something, at least do it correctly.

You can call a pistol as a "gun" or even a "slugthrower" and people will still know what you are talking about. Since most people know that when you say "Enemy Flaw", you really mean "Extra Enemy Flaw", it seems to be an accepted usage of the text. Ah, semantics.

Back to the topic, I currently play a character who has a mild phobia of Shapeshifters, due to a bad tangle with a Shapeshifter prior. "I shot him with 6 bullets from each revolver, and it STILL didn't die!"

Actually, since it generally is used to refer to the Hunted Flaw, or was in the recent and similar thread, it is not that self-evident.

And besides, I don't assume. Nor do I guess, hypothesize, speculate, or infer (yes, credit where credit is due goes to Jimmy Caan in Way of the Gun) when I'm discussing anything online. I'm weird like that.
vapor
i rarely use edges or flaws, but i'm a big fan of common sense...
toturi
While many advised to be careful with Aptitudes, I'd also add to be careful with Preceptive. It is Aptitude (Intelligence AND Complementary Stealth) for the cheap and cheesy cost of 3, unlike that of Aptitude with cost of 4. With Preceptive and Cognition in the hands of a player, you can kiss that sniper goodbye as a GM, unless you break the rules.
banditf50
I also rarely make use of edges or flaws unless it is a very good fit for the character. Although when the SR Companion first came out I made several characters who were all color blind. I am color blind myself so I thought it was a neat way to take a flaw which would be so simple for me to RP.

Which brings up a silly random question. Are there any documented cases of a human (in RL, not SR) being allergic to silver?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (banditf50)
Which brings up a silly random question. Are there any documented cases of a human (in RL, not SR) being allergic to silver?

A quick journal search reveals:
Agarwal S. Gawkrodger DJ. Occupational allergic contact dermatitis to silver and colophonium in a jeweler. [Case Reports. Journal Article] American Journal of Contact Dermatitis. 13(2):74, 2002 Jun.

Ehrlich A. Kucenic M. Belsito DV. Role of body piercing in the induction of metal allergies. [Journal Article] American Journal of Contact Dermatitis. 12(3):151-5, 2001 Sep.

Fraser-Moodie A. Sensitivity to silver in a patient treated with silver sulphadiazine (Flamazine). [Case Reports. Journal Article] Burns. 18(1):74-5, 1992 Feb.

From a brief look at some articles, this mostly comes up in silver-amalgam fillings in the context of dentistry, so it happens at a rare frequency.
vapor
QUOTE (banditf50)


Which brings up a silly random question. Are there any documented cases of a human (in RL, not SR) being allergic to silver?

if it exists in the world, chances are that someone, somewhere, is allergic to it.

for example, one of my best friends is allergic to wheat-- it makes fast food choices rather difficult.
Toshiaki
QUOTE (banditf50)
Which brings up a silly random question.  Are there any documented cases of a human (in RL, not SR) being allergic to silver?

Yes there are. In most cases it manifests as skin that has been in contact with it getting inflamed. Main advice is don't wear silver earrings.

I also know of someone who is allergic to latex. They found this out during surgery, which wasn't pretty.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (vapor)
QUOTE (banditf50 @ Feb 21 2005, 10:18 PM)


Which brings up a silly random question.  Are there any documented cases of a human (in RL, not SR) being allergic to silver?

if it exists in the world, chances are that someone, somewhere, is allergic to it.

for example, one of my best friends is allergic to wheat-- it makes fast food choices rather difficult.

There are case reports of people having dermal reactions to aqueous solutions (i.e. water):
Hide M. Yamamura Y. Sanada S. Yamamoto S. Aquagenic urticaria: a case report. Acta Dermato-Venereologica. 80(2):148-9, 2000 Mar-Apr.

Not that they are allergic to water itself (H2O is a little too small to be an allergen), but water triggers an urticaria reaction on the skin. These poor people can't take baths without special pretreatment of anti-histimines and such.
banditf50
Thanks much. It's nice to know that in addition to SR-related questions, one can also get other random thoughts expounded on here.

Thanks again cool.gif
mfb
enough people are allergic to aluminum that the US Army has special plastic casings for dogtag chains that may be issued.

edit: hey, i'm a dragon. when'd that happen?
Eyeless Blond
Oh yeah, my brother's allergic to aluminum. It's somewhat amusing because he keeps forgetting and putting on those stupid cheap chains he likes to play with. This means every few months or so he ends up with an itchy rash around his neck and has to be reminded that he can't be wearing those stupid things.

I'd give him the Oblivious flaw too. nyahnyah.gif
The White Dwarf
The most common edges tend to be the ones that either help out a characters build or are just useful during play. I think Ive seen almost all of them show up at one point or another (animal empathy just cant cut it anywhere) but many of them seem to show up in more focused character ideas rather than in a broad variety of characters.

Bonus Attribute, Exceptional Attribute, High Pain Tolerance, Perceptive, Photographic Memory, Friendly Face, Good Reputation, Astral Chamelon, Focused Concentration, and Vehicle Empathy - seem to be the ones that show up in over half the teams (thats better than 50% chance to appear in a group of 4-6 runners)

The most common flaws tend to be the ones that fit with background or character history, or that fit our groups playstyle. We make a concious effort to not cheese these out, but ones that add flavor to the campaign or impose intesting limits on what actions people can take seem to show up more often than not.

Allergy, Weak Immune System, Impulsive, Phobia, Sensitive Neural Structure, Vindictive, Dark Secret, Distinctive Style, Spirit Bane, Bad Karma, Cursed Karma, Hunted, and Mysterious Cyberware - seem to be the ones that show up most frequently in our teams.

Personally, theres several ones on both lists Id never use, but in a (typically) 7 person group my opinions dont always hold the majority sentiment =)
GlassJaw
How are the Bad and Cursed Karma flaws in-play? They seem like they could old real fast but getting a -5 or -6 in one shot is tempting. Again, I've never used them so I'm hesitant to take something I would really regret later on.

Also, what about an allergy to alcohol? Would that be considered a common substance for the purposes of the flaw (since you could just not drink it)?
Aes
I'd say for something to be labelled as "common", there should be a decent chance you'd be exposed invoulentarely to it every 2-3 runs at least. Otherwise, it obviously isn't "common" to you.
Fortune
QUOTE (GlassJaw)
How are the Bad and Cursed Karma flaws in-play? They seem like they could old real fast but getting a -5 or -6 in one shot is tempting. Again, I've never used them so I'm hesitant to take something I would really regret later on.

For a human, Bad Karma only lowers the Karma Pool rate to that of a metahuman. It isn't that bad. For a metahuman though, it's another matter. I would never take that flaw as an elf.

As for Cursed Karma (and the sometimes house-ruled Blessed Karma Edge), I think this should be the way the Karma Pool operates all the time (without the edge or flaw). Use Karma, roll a d6, on a one the Karma is spent but no change in effect happens, on a six the Karma Point(s) is not spent but the desired effect still happens.
nezumi
Yeah, bad karma isn't bad for humans.

I've seen some great 'cheese' flaws.
Phobia: Drowning (claiming its common),
Allergy: Archaic drug I had to look up,
Flashbacks/amnesia are both very common
Combat monster for the stupid high schooler


Good looking and knows it is a very common edge, except that, technically, it isn't an edge at all. It's listed where they're talking about building edges, and it's really overpowered.

In general, I make people realize I ENJOY their taking flaws. I make a point of letting them take them. I keep a little list as I GM so I never ever forget what makes them squeal. Depending on how much they got from it, that determines how often I take advantage of it.
Dawnshadow
If you get a good GM, you can have great fun with flaws..

Having had the magician adept with a mild phobia of priests and a major one of churches.. coupled with hunted (everything tied into his backstory)..

Led to a 2 day solo run that had him swearing up down and sideways that the Fates and Norns had gotten together to make his life miserable. He survived. But.. so did the guy who's hunting him. Kincade's probably going to start running the next time he hears bible verses coming randomly..

Incidentally, his only other flaw is bio-rejection.. Works fairly well with him. And boy was it fun to play out.
hahnsoo
Flaws that I would like to see:
More Flaws based on established modern-day personality disorders like Histrionic (Drama Queen) or Borderline (Sees Things as Black or White), along with ones that only apply in the Sixth World (variations of Elf Poser, wants to be Awakened, things like that).
More Flaws based on existing medical disorders, especially auto-immune or genetic disorders. Diabetes, for example, probably would make for a great combination of flaws. A whole lot of material on the catastrophic effects of these diseases can be determined from the Bioware Stress tables.
More Societal/Cultural Flaws (for example, Braggart is a flaw only in Shadowrunning circles. The Water-based flaws are only applicable in Pirate or Coastal campaigns)
Endgame50
Every spellcaster should take focused concentration.
One to three boxes of pain tolerance work well.
Improved attribute is a must imo--it's a ton of saved karma in the long run.
Connected is really excellent, especially for money dependent characters.
Good Reputation is great for social PCs--very little short of kinesics lowers those tns.
Friendly face is more limited, as is Good Looking and Knows it, but also nice.

For flaws:
Infirm I've seen taken alot. It apparently only lowers the racially modified limit (cheese) so you can take six body as a mage if you wanted to--just means you couldn't raise it. (if you took infirm 3) I wouldn't recommend it though.

Phobia is fun. I made a decker who was in the Renraku Arc when it went down--he came out with a moderate phobia of combat drones. As with allergies, we don't just judge by how common the "trigger" is, we judge by how commonly a shadowrunner would encounter it. So while allergy: housecats might be common for normal people, it just doesn't come up in SR to warrant it.

Dossier on File + Enemy is fun, but as people noted, it's a real attention hog. On top of that, you're probably going to get gacked. *grin*

Bad Karma / Cursed Karma are easy sources of points, but the lack of karma or backfiring of karma you have can really bite you on the rear.

Gremlins for magical types--just have your friends handle the techy bits.

Spirit Bane--I wouldn't allow it unless the person could actually summon the baned spirit, but there's technically no restriction.

Matrix addiction (Mild)--unless you have extraordinary circumstances, most deckers spend 4 hours a day in the trix anyway.

JaronK
I had a lot of fun with my Cat Shaman who had a mild phobia and moderate allergy to dogs... it made hellhounds and gabriel hounds a serious issue.

Ambidexterity is virtually required for certain character concepts, like duel gun adepts.

Daredevil is a fun one, combined with Impulsive, for the adrenaline junkie characters.

Night Vision for humans is extreamly useful.

JaronK
The White Dwarf
Bad karma isnt too horrible on a human, but they do lose their 'racial advantage' so to speak. It really boils down to how often you like to rely on having karma pool there, and the way I figure it, the sooner you have lots the less likley you are to buy the farm. So its a bit of a personal opinion. On a metahuman, yea, youll never have a karma pool. Ever.

Cursed karma is a whole other situation. I will never take this flaw, ever. Anytime Im using karma pool, Im already in dire straights and hoping for a difficult roll. Last thing I want in that situation is to lower the odds by 5/6 straight off the top. However other people in our group dont rely on karma to save them as I do, so they take this and figure if they botch a roll they botch it. If a whole team subscribed to that logic in a 6 player + GM setup like we have, and people each used karma twice per run, this would screw up 2 of those 12 uses. Thats just too steep for me.
Critias
My main character (nearing 250 karma) is an elf with Cursed Karma, and it's not that bad. I find it balances him out fairly well, and in many ways it negates the super-badassness that a high-karma character can have (in that he has to rely on his skills and whatnot to accomplish the difficult, not just rerolling over and over again until he does the impossible). He's got enough blood on his hands that it's easy to understand why Lady Luck and he don't get along, to boot.

That said, there've been some tense moments with it, and I certainly can't say it's for everyone... but it's not a bad way to block off that "easy out" that a lot of mid/high karma characters can use. No karmic crutches, here. Good clean fun.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (nezumi)
Allergy: Archaic drug I had to look up,

What I'd like to see is soneone take Allergy(Penicillin). The fun thing about that one'll be how they end up feeling the effects every time they have a medkit used on them. smile.gif
Sandoval Smith
It is annoying when someone tries to cheese out on things like Phobia. The drowning one would actually be pretty good in a pirate game, or any other campaign that spends most of its time on the water. Then I'd say the phobia comes into play whenever they enter the water in an uncontrolled situation (knocked overboard, their boat shot out from under them, et al). However in a Seattle, or Denver (ha!) game, no way they could take it at common.

Stuff like that should really be done in the presence of the GM, just to save on later hassle.
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