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Quix
Just happened to be looking at a world map for SR and this struck me as odd. With how much we hear about the citizens of the middle east shooting at each other in the present I'd have thought that the map for that area should be more of a mess then it is. After all I like to think of the USA and Germany as fairly stable nations yet they splintered upon the return of magic to the world. So why has none of theis happened to the Middle East? Have the people at FanPro not gotten there yet or did the rise in mana levels actually manage to make one part of the globe more stable?
Demonseed Elite
You will see more on the Middle East soon. cool.gif
GlassJaw
I can't even imagine the Middle East in 60+ odd years...scary.
AIM-54
QUOTE (GlassJaw)
I can't even imagine the Middle East in 60+ odd years...scary.

A lot of that will depend on how things shake out of current developments in the region. If a lot of things go right, it's not inconceivable that in 60 years the Middle East is much more stable than we can currently imagine. A lot of things that are going on are at least encouraging (new Palestinian leadership, what's occurring in Lebanon, elections in Iraq and Afghanistan). But there's a long way to go, so things could easily slide backwards...

I imagine the good folks at FanPro will find plenty of interesting things to do to the region regardless... smile.gif
Garland
I'm having a hard time imagining the Awakening stabilizing anything, really.
mfb
the middle east did, according to SoE, stablize somewhat. or, well. they gathered together under a single banner and beat the living crap out of most of europe. that's sorta like stabilization. once the back of the Great Jihad was broken, though, it looks like they went back to fighting amongst themselves, if the information surrounding what's-his-name-the-probable-master-shedim is correct.
CircuitBoyBlue
Plus, lets face it. Stable regions are boring, from a Shadowrun perspective. I mean, would you really buy a book about a region where crap wasn't about to hit the fan any time soon?
Cray74
QUOTE (AIM-54)
A lot of that will depend on how things shake out of current developments in the region.


As I recall, in Shadowrun, Libya and Israel go at it with hammer and tongs. Or chemical and nuclear weapons anyway....

...In the year 2004.

So, whatever's going to happen in Shadowrun's Middle East is going to be different than happens in our Middle East.

But go figure. Some of the very critical US Supreme Court decisions (Shiawase, Seretech) should've happened in 1999 and 2001. Shadowrun is already a very alternate history.
AIM-54
QUOTE (mfb)
the middle east did, according to SoE, stablize somewhat. or, well. they gathered together under a single banner and beat the living crap out of most of europe. that's sorta like stabilization. once the back of the Great Jihad was broken, though, it looks like they went back to fighting amongst themselves, if the information surrounding what's-his-name-the-probable-master-shedim is correct.

And just like 1683, the Turks...I mean Great Jihad was defeated at Vienna...

Actually, a lot of Europe in the 2060s looks like Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries (from a grand perspective)...that historical undercurrent makes SoE for me.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
Well, it'll all get upset when Ibn Eisa sends his zombie followers to EAT YOUR BRAINS!
GlassJaw
I'm no expert on the Shadowrun timeline but didn't they just obliterate each other and then the corps started having Desert Wars in the region?
Kanada Ten
Only in Libya.
Prospero
Desert Wars are in N. Africa. A lot of stabilization in the Middle East seems to have come from Lofwyr and S-K pulling the strings to get better access to oil.

On that note, I wonder just how much oil is left in the Middle East in 60 years - its been a while since I've heard a good doomsday estimate on about when the world's oil reserves will run dry...
FlakJacket
Whilst the writers for the rest of the world seem to have gone on an apocolypse binge, the Middle East seems to be the one region that's done the exact opposite and come together. Except for the second Iran/Iraq war and Turkey balkanising, they've hung together pretty well. Arabia hoovered up half a dozen or so countries, combined with SK influence, the most wildcard nation getting nuked out of existance, Iran taking a body blow, the Alliance for Allah and now the New Islamic Jihad, it's unification city over there.

The Middle East and Russia are two of the main reasons I'm waiting for the upcoming Shadows of Asia release. smile.gif
Kanada Ten
I was thinking the Middle East looked ready for a "civil war" between the NIJ and the Islamic Unity Movement. Along with Aden's activities the region's more a powder keg than a bastion of stability.
AIM-54
Depending on how exactly one carves up the region, there's room for all kinds of instability. You have two flavors of Islam (Sunni and Shia), at least three ethnicities (Arab, Turkic, Persian, plus however you choose to define the various Central Asian peoples, though they tend to be Turkic or Persian historically) and the possibility of plentiful natural resources (again, depending on how they approach the occurances of the previous 60 years), sounds like a powder keg waiting to go off and plenty of biz for runners.

I can see plenty of internecine conflict between the Islamic organizations, especially after the assassination of Mullah Sayid Jazrir and the collapse of the Great Jihad, plus the possibility of rising upstart organizations challenging for power in the region...

And this is only thinking politically, as I imagine there will be some Awakened goodies in there too.
Halabis
In the SR timeline didnt a third majhor faction of Ismal form sometime after the awakening?
Kanada Ten
There is another forms of Islam that is so weakly related it was just funny. Jihad 5 was a Germen gang of this faction... IIRC, the tag line is that paradise will come to Earth at the apocalypse (and the gang intends on making that happen as soon as possible).
FrostyNSO
Message to Authors :

We need to see the Ismailis and the Hashishin in Shadowrun.
hermit
Well, I have a really hard time imagining the Middle East in large parts as a stable envionment, though it'd also be bound to rival Europe in terms of balcanisation and different settings every other kilometer.

1. It is a damn mess today, already. Not only in Iraq, but also in Turkey ("Kurdistan"), Iran, Palestine, Yemen ...

2. If there is anything Arabs are realy bad at, it is agreeing with one another and not backstabbing each other every five minutes. Realy. Arab leaders are supposedly the most antisocial, paranoid and dishonest people on the planet, surpassing late-1990s internet company CEOs by quite a margin.

3. Not two, but four different flavors of Islam are present in the region - Shiite, Sunni, Ismaelite, and Sufi (especially the latter should really be empowered by the awakening). Not to even mention the different schools within Sunni silam (though I'd expect the ME to be largely Wahhabite in SR - it is dark future after all). And not three bit about a gazillion of different tribes, ethnicities, and old grudges that would be very hard to unify under one leader. It's not like Arabas haven't tried that a couple of times the last century.

4. There also is a very, very substancial difference in wealth between the oil nations (especially the UAE and Saudi) and the likes of Syria and Jordan, whcih certainly adds to the tension. Plus, the de-islamisation of Isdtambul/Constantinopole surely pisses off all those holier-than-thou Wahhabites, and terrorist tactics should not have lost any of their appeal, on the countrary actually. The tensions between realpolitik, fiery idealism and fierbrand calls for hatred and holy war, together with above emntioned fractioning, shgould make for a very instable envorionment. think of Iraq all over the place, and of Islamist troops instead of Americans trying to keep the whole mess from boiling over.

5. With the awakening, Aden destroying Tehran (and possibly bringing down the Islamic Republic in the aftermath), the return of magic and the subsequent rise in mullahs and uninintiated muslims able to work "wonders", people in the ME are bound to have become even more religious than they are now. It's easy to drink a Raki (or what passes as wine in Lebanon) every once in a while if Allah never makes his presence felt, but it's not quite so easy if you freindly neighbourhood mukllah can shoot flames of vengeance and make angels appear and stuff, is it?

6. There's always someone who doesn't like their freindly neighbourhood dictator. They're everrywhere! Hence, there will most likely be an all-pervasive state secret service, with whom everyone will have to arrange themselves. Since the secret service people are notoriously bribable (at least today, they are, and that's not gonna change much in the dark future that is SR), corps should have no problem with them, and runners not on a budget shouldn't either ... unless either messes with the local potentate's interests. Then, they'll feel like hell has broken loose on them. And depending on whom they manage to piss off, it might well actually do. At least, I always imagined the "toxic" variant of monotheist shamans (shamen?) to be that - hell-worshippers.

All in all, it would be an interesting field of opperation fro runners, though they'd be set to face much resentment (being Westerners, usually metahumans, cybered, non-muslims, and generally outsiders to whetever community they're in) and other hurdles they'd maybe not be used to.

In other words, really deserving of a sourcebook of it's own. biggrin.gif
FlakJacket
QUOTE (hermit)
It's a damn mess today, already. Not only in Iraq, but also in Turkey ("Kurdistan"), Iran, Palestine, Yemen.

Well the Kurds already have their own area/country thanks to their benefactor Aden, even if they aren't recognised by anyone. Yemen's part of Arabia now, Tukey split, Iran's still a theocracy but keeping their heads down thanks to Tehran and Palestine hasn't been mentioned yet. But it'll be covered in Shadows of Asia so looking forward to that. smile.gif

QUOTE
If there is anything Arabs are really bad at, it is agreeing with one another and not backstabbing each other every five minutes. Realy. Arab leaders are supposedly the most antisocial, paranoid and dishonest people on the planet, surpassing late-1990s internet company CEOs by quite a margin.

Good thing you didn't get too stereotypical and paint the whole region with a wide a brush. wink.gif I think a more reasonable way would be to say that power mad Presindents for life, kings and military dictators don't share so well. And having someone to gang up on is a good unifying force, witness the Alliance for Allah. That and a possible Second Coming is pretty nifty as well.

QUOTE
Not two, but four different flavors of Islam are present in the region - Shiite, Sunni, Ismaelite, and Sufi (especially the latter should really be empowered by the awakening).

Yeah, I can definately see them becoming big with adepts and other magical aspects as well.

QUOTE
Not to even mention the different schools within Sunni Islam (though I'd expect the ME to be largely Wahhabite in SR - it is dark future after all). And not three bit about a gazillion of different tribes, ethnicities, and old grudges that would be very hard to unify under one leader. It's not like Arabs haven't tried that a couple of times the last century.

Well Arabia is definately going to be Wahabbi thanks to a Sa'aud's arse warming the Caliphal throne. As for the tribes and stuff, I dunno, I just don't see it all that much personally. And see the IUM and Second Coming comment for a good unifying factor.

QUOTE
With the awakening, Aden destroying Tehran (and possibly bringing down the Islamic Republic in the aftermath), the return of magic and the subsequent rise in mullahs and uninintiated muslims able to work "wonders", people in the ME are bound to have become even more religious than they are now. It's easy to drink a Raki (or what passes as wine in Lebanon) every once in a while if Allah never makes his presence felt, but it's not quite so easy if you freindly neighbourhood mullah can shoot flames of vengeance and make angels appear and stuff, is it?

Think you're overstating things a bit. When one in a hundred people are magically active - in my old college that would have translated to 20 or more people, and we were a mid to smallish place - it takes away a lot of the mythos. And with magic widely know about and masses of data on it, a god giver gift maybe but not considered a 'wonder' I would have thought. Plus, why would Aden laying the smack-down make people more religious? I would have though it had a counter effect. Old geezer cleric says metahumans and dragons are evil and should be destroyed, dragon doesn't like that and instead torches old clerics gaffe and surrounding city with it. Cause and effect - don't nark off the eight-hundred pound gorilla.
Crimsondude 2.0
I wonder if there's any enclave/country/region/whatever carved out by the Awakened. It's not like it's unheard of, even if some people don't particularly like it (I think it's actually rather logical, but that's me).
mfb
i hear there's an island nation in Indonesia that welcomes the Awakened with open jaws. er, arms.
Crimsondude 2.0
I was thinking more like it's equivalent in one of the shield islands off the Strait of Hormuz between Oman and Iran.
Ancient History
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Message to Authors :

We need to see ... the Hashishin in Shadowrun.

What are the 10,000 Daggers? Chopped liver?
hermit
QUOTE
What are the 10,000 Daggers? Chopped liver?

Pretty much, yes - they're just yet another mercenary corporation, only with a bit of Hashishim flair. Maybe the SR writers intended them to be a 2060s Hashishim, but I dunno, they just lack the feel.
The original Hashishim were more like a terror organisation in the pre-explosives era, conducting assassinations to meet the Ismaelites' political ends. They were, by the way, much mroe a menance to fellow muslims than to crusaders. In fact, they gave up trying to influence the crusaders by assassinating their leaders when tehy noticed that, once one was own, another onse stepped up and continued as the previous one had. Oh, and they never either called themselves Hashishim (which was an insult spalled onto them by other muslims who were quite pissed about them assassinating their leaders left and right - Islam frowns upon the use of mind-altering substances in general, including weed), nor did they do any drug - they just were blindly loyal, fanatical suicide assassins.

Maybe the Ismaelites could get an enclave for themselves, protected by powerful magic from the hands of the rightful heir of the prophet? At least, the Agha Khan is (pretty much) proven to be of Muhammed's blood ... the last one who could claim to be a true Caliph. Sounds like the 2060s Wahhabi Sunnis would really hate the Ismaelites ... especially the house of Saud. Makes me wonder if they wouldn't send some covert operatives of their own - Hashishim style ...

But for a muslim warrior-monk order ... yeah, a very nice idea. Especially with a magical suicide spell. Blood magic, performed onto themselves to generate a terrible blast, or something.

QUOTE
Well the Kurds already have their own area/country thanks to their benefactor Aden, even if they aren't recognised by anyone.

Hahahaha! Well, at long last, they get some kind of an own country - one that's run by a dragon. Poor Kurds, they really have no luck at all. By the way, Kurdistan is mentioned in the Germany book, so it will likely be a fully recognized nation if the writers care about canon.

QUOTE
Good thing you didn't get too stereotypical and paint the whole region with a wide a brush.

Didn't intend too, it's just that Arab societes favour corrupt, paranoid, cruel dictators. Not even "democratic" Palestine and Lebanon and Iraq are exceptions to this. It's a curse all tribal societies bear, not limited to Arabs in particular (just look at the Balkans, pre-nationalist Europe, or today's sub-saharran Africa). Yes, Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine show some signs they just might escape that trap that has cost the Islamic world two empires, but given their past and the incredible hard-headedness and conservativism, I personally have little hope anything will change significantly. It takes an Atatürk to break out of such a vicious cycle, if you ask me. frown.gif

QUOTE
And having someone to gang up on is a good unifying force, witness the Alliance for Allah.

Which broke apart one year after formation, with the Maghrebians forming their own, slighly less talebanesque, "Islamic Federation" (p14, Shadows of Europe, German edition) which broke apart some years after formation. The AfA was surprisingly long-lived compared to other Panarabian ventures (IF, United Arab Republic, United Arab States ...) because it was united by an iron-fisted dictator, but fell apart the very year this dictator met an untimely end.
And as for the unifying force of common threats - that's no law of nature. Just look at Palestine.

QUOTE
That and a possible Second Coming is pretty nifty as well.

Possible, though we might well see yet another shift if Magic doesn't favour only one of the prohet's heirs ... another Ali vs. Yasin, anyone?

QUOTE
Plus, why would Aden laying the smack-down make people more religious?

1. A beast out of hell means there is a hell, and if there's a hell, then there're all the other things Islam claims there are.
2. If there's noone else to turn to, people always turn to faith. Like in Aceh after the tsunami. And mind you, Aden didn't kill 150,000 but 20,000,000. With an adversary that powerful, who but god could help them?
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
What are the 10,000 Daggers? Chopped liver?

Pretty much, yes - they're just yet another mercenary corporation, only with a bit of Hashishim flair. Maybe the SR writers intended them to be a 2060s Hashishim, but I dunno, they just lack the feel.

Actually, what you describe seems more like what spud wrote in Dragons of the Sixth World in Aden's chapter about the Kurds.
hermit
Heh. Don't own DofSW myself, but would make sense. A dragon surely would make for one hell of a Old Man of the Mountain.
torzzzzz
cool.gif

reccon the middle east would be one huge sheet of glass, a biohazard aria, or the home of one big mammoth dragon.

Just my own personal thought on that!


torz x
Crimsondude 2.0
What?
AIM-54
QUOTE (torzzzzz)
a biohazard aria

A toxic Virtuoso adept? Interesting...
FlakJacket
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
We need to see the Ismailis and the Hashishin in Shadowrun.

Funny coincidence. I read the other day that the President of Syria is supposed to be descended from those guys. Or at least the sect that most of them came from. Something like this might actually be doable in Shadowrun, no different from the Chimera group really. Especially if they decide to hire their services out.

Another slant on them are Manchurian candidate hitmen. Whith all the things like mind probe, alter memory, PAB's, psychotropic IC, drugs and everything else on offer, not so much brainwashing as full service wash coming out freshly starched and ironed.

QUOTE (hermit)
There also is a very, very substancial difference in wealth between the oil nations (especially the UAE and Saudi) and the likes of Syria and Jordan, whcih certainly adds to the tension.

A lot of the oil's dried up and there are alternatives now so oil isn't so big of an issue. Only 25% of Arabia's GNP comes from that IIRC.

QUOTE
But for a muslim warrior-monk order ... yeah, a very nice idea. Especially with a magical suicide spell. Blood magic, performed onto themselves to generate a terrible blast, or something.

You mean as a kind of dead mans handle in case they die? Because magical suicide attacks just doesn't make much sense. Whilst being one in a hundred people means they're not that rare, they're still a very valuable commodity. Why go to all of the trouble training someone only for them to kill themselves the first time out? Just isn't a viable use of resources. Much more sensible to go the 10,000 Daggers/Shadowrunners route and plan to have an exfiltration plan at the end of it so you don't lose your expensively trained people.

That's not to say that a suicide bomber using magic like an anchored spell isn't a viable option. Although you don't need to waste resources training them, just indoctrinate them. Find some poor young bastard that feels like their life's never going to get any better, that's mad at the world and stick them in a madrassa and fill their heads with as much extremist bollocks as it can hold. Holy duty, Allah and infinate virgins waiting on the other side etc. then send them out to die a martyr. Anything apart from the most basic training in how to complete the mission after that is just wasted.

QUOTE
Hahahaha! Well, at long last, they get some kind of an own country - one that's run by a dragon. Poor Kurds, they really have no luck at all.

From the way it's written, by the sound of it they've actually got a pretty good deal out of it. You should definately pick up the book some time, it's good.

QUOTE
Possible, though we might well see yet another shift if Magic doesn't favour only one of the prohet's heirs ... another Ali vs. Yasin, anyone?

Sorry, that reference just went completely over my head. I was going on about Badr al Din Ibn Eisa, current leader of IUM and the NIJ, who was assassinated and then came back to life. At least that's what most people believe happened.

QUOTE
A beast out of hell means there is a hell, and if there's a hell, then there're all the other things Islam claims there are.

You're of course assuming that everyone in the Middle east automatically believes that it's a being of hell and not just another biological animal like a dog or a lion. Sure it'd probably reinforce those with already strongly held beliefs, but I don't think it'd make everyone in the entire area true believers overnight.

QUOTE (AIM-54)
QUOTE (torzzzzz @ Feb 27 2005, 05:33 PM)
a biohazard aria

A toxic Virtuoso adept? Interesting...

Muzak? Or possibly some of the more extreme black meavy metal. wink.gif Seriously though, a song with dark undertones that turns people against each other.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (AIM-54)
QUOTE (torzzzzz @ Feb 27 2005, 05:33 PM)
a biohazard aria

A toxic Virtuoso adept? Interesting...

The one and only... Kazoo Adept!
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
That's not to say that a suicide bomber using magic like an anchored spell isn't a viable option. Although you don't need to waste resources training them, just indoctrinate them. Find some poor young bastard that feels like their life's never going to get any better, that's mad at the world and stick them in a madrassa and fill their heads with as much extremist bollocks as it can hold. Holy duty, Allah and infinate virgins waiting on the other side etc. then send them out to die a martyr. Anything apart from the most basic training in how to complete the mission after that is just wasted.

That sounds familiar--almost like a story in SOTA64.

Assuming the bombers weren't shedim, which is my theory.
torzzzzz
QUOTE
A toxic Virtuoso adept? Interesting
biggrin.gif

you read my mind like a book, right on!............ why not it would be VERY interesting!


torz x
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
That sounds familiar--almost like a story in SOTA64.

Assuming the bombers weren't shedim, which is my theory.

You mean the Sarajevo bombing?
Crimsondude 2.0
Yeah.
FlakJacket
Makes sense if Ibn Eisa is a master shedim - send out some of the flunkies to do the deed and you don't even lose them afterwards.
Crimsondude 2.0
Well, I only suggest it because I've seen how nasty even normal shedim can get at a decent force, especially with the regenerating ability that would make what they did possible.
Synner
I thought it gave a whole new twist to "suicide bombers". Glad it made the cut, this year's SOTA had plenty of other cool proposals...
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (Synner)
I thought it gave a whole new twist to "suicide bombers". Glad it made the cut, this year's SOTA had plenty of other cool proposals...



Did it ? biggrin.gif
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