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tschofie
While reading the thread on payment for runs, I found a sidenote on looting. This is probably more than a little naive, but... it actually never occurred to me that looting was, well, permissible -- or even possible. We've never even picked up downed enemies' weaponry, let alone engaged in the more devious methods that have been hinted at.

Needless to say, I am quite excited. Does one normally get, say, half the list price for weaponry? Or a fifth the street price? Is it tough to transport 'stolen' bio/cyber-ware? Are there items that most fixers won't handle? What diverse objects have you (or your gamers) stolen? Any particularly innovative tips?

In short... what are the mechanics of swiping stuff? And how can I go about looting without being abrasive, interrupting game flow, or risking GM wrath?

Many thanks,
TS

_____

Don't worry about people stealing your ideas.
If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
--Howard Aiken
Chibu
Well, a few weeks ago, Nightshade stole an Ares Dragon. This would have been hard to fence, but, the company no longer existed... ^-^

But, the price you get really depends on how you sell it. if you give it to a fixer and say "sell this for me," you may get a tenth to a fifth of the list price. But, if you sell it yourself, you can distinctly get more than that. Especially if you have a negotiation skill. ^-^
Herald of Verjigorm
I think you can pawn stuff for up to 50% of base cost to a fence if you make a good enough negotiations test. See main book, "Fencing the Loot" section or something like that vaguely near the equipment section.
Dawnshadow
Best example of looting in my memory.

My second run ever. We were doing reasonably well, had an adept and a Sammy kidnap someone we needed to extract information from.

There was a security guard, talking on something.. and the Sammy leaned out of the car and shot him down. In the middle of a rich neighbourhood. With a cop car behind him, and trid-bots in the air. The other adept saw the entire thing on the news.

When said other adept, and the other Sam, managed to rescue the first two with an ambush that took out the cops (got some REALLY lucky rolls). Runners decided to vacate Seattle.

Had the idiot sam stop by the adepts place to help them gather their stuff up. He arrived with a duffle bag, armour and weapons packed away in it. They said that they had some extra stuff in the basement, so he went down with them to get it.. he walked into the room. The adepts stepped in after him.

The adepts both drew predators and shot him in the back. He was still alive (but had taken deadly damage) when they took out the knives and removed his cyberware, adding it to a second duffle bag. Fixer gave us.. shoot.. I don't know what the value was. I think it was something like half cost at street index + paid for our passage out of Seattle.

(Note: I was one of the adepts, not the idiot)

For looting in general? If it's something small just grab it on the way past.. if it's something major, well, be inventive. Just don't walk down the street carrying someone's severed cyberarm.
Kanada Ten
My advice is: don't loot unless it's part of a job. Everything can be traced, even more so if you took it from a security force - and if you took it from a syndicate, they're likely the ones offering to buy it.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
Be careful about organ-legging, though. Tanamous has their dirty little fingers drek-deep in that, and they don't like competition. Not to mention the Yaks and God-knows-who-else.

Cyberwear's slightly easier to pawn off, 'specially if you got a street doc who buys the stuff on the cheap.

Usually my players are in a hurry, and grab whatever's fast and obvious. If they decide to just give it to their fixer, they get 30% of the street value of the item. They can get better deals if they sell to an actual dealer or pawn it off themselves, but they haven't done this yet.

There are also some things their 'general' fixer can't get or sell for them; heavy munitions, for instance. For this, they have to go to other contacts.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
My advice is: don't loot unless it's part of a job. Everything can be traced, even more so if you took it from a security force - and if you took it from a syndicate, they're likely the ones offering to buy it.

Well, it all depends on who you're looting from and what the circumstances are.

If you're reasonably sure it won't be traced, have time and won't be jeapordizing whatever job you're currently on (if any), then why wouldn't you?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
If you're reasonably sure it won't be traced, have time and won't be jeapordizing whatever job you're currently on (if any), then why wouldn't you?

QUOTE
Well, it all depends on who you're looting from and what the circumstances are.

It's general advice, like "don't smoke, it might kill you".
Dawnshadow
Don't loot from those who have friends/employers/partners that will hunt you down and kill you -- unless you want them to come after you so you can kill them and loot their corpses too.
James McMurray
Perhaps its from years of playing D&D, but if my players (and me when I'm playing) have the time, they grab everything not nailed down. This usually just involves the weapons from the opposition, but could also involve armor, or other stuff. The "other stuff" hasn't happened yet, but they've generally been too rushed for a good search.
Paul
I think kaneda ten hasit one. If you have to ask the Johnson, the answer is likely no. My players have "looted", we prefer acquire thank you, at various times-but I'll be honest they won't just take everything. It has to be something that either is worth selling, or keeping.

The more you take the more you have to sell, and therefore the more chances some pissed off corp might run across your little firesale, or trace the goods back to you.

That said, the corps can't afford to track down every item lifted from them-it has make good economic sense or be pretty conveinant for tracking purposes to do so.
JaronK
AFAIK, in real life fencing goods nets about 10% of the market value of the item, if that helps.

And you can loot all you want, but be aware that serial numbers can be traced.

JaronK
toturi
My gaming group has a standard procedure. If the GM (that is me) is stupid enough to put the heavy or expensive stuff in the hands of the opposition, then the PCs are not going to be stupid enough to refuse taking them off the cold dead hands of their enemies.

By Canon, there is no game mechanic to trace stolen mechandise. And you know me: what is not Canon is not in my game.
mfb
SR3 page 237 has rules for selling illicit gear on the street.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
By Canon, there is no game mechanic to trace stolen mechandise. And you know me: what is not Canon is not in my game.

Funny, my copy of SR3 says (on page 238, last sentence under "The Meet"):
QUOTE
If the original owners of the loot are coming after it, they will show up at the meet as well.

No rolling, no tests: THEY WILL SHOW UP. That's canon.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (toturi)
By Canon, there is no game mechanic to trace stolen mechandise. And you know me: what is not Canon is not in my game.

Ritual magic. Especially the reverse ritual magic and sympathetic magic stuff in SOTA:2063. It's difficult, but possible, depending on the corporation's magical assets, and it's certainly canon.
toturi
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 25 2005, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE
By Canon, there is no game mechanic to trace stolen mechandise. And you know me: what is not Canon is not in my game.

Funny, my copy of SR3 says (on page 238, last sentence under "The Meet"):
QUOTE
If the original owners of the loot are coming after it, they will show up at the meet as well.

No rolling, no tests: THEY WILL SHOW UP. That's canon.

Yes, they will show up. They just do not know what to do after showing up, but they will show up. biggrin.gif

And that's only if you meet with a fence. If you are doing direct sales via Connected Edge, you are no longer fencing the loot, you are Connecting.
Edward
I find weapons to be of relatively low value once you fence them. Not worth the time and risk. I will acquire them only if my ammunition supply is depleting.

When the job allows it I always loot a few extra things.

EG the job is to steal a prototype. As far as time and load permit take everything else in the room that looks valuable, any computers in the vicinity (or there data storage modals if load is an issue) and everything vaguely resembling pay data on there system. Also riding other rooms nearby in a similar manner

Not only do you get to make a bit extra on the side but you make it harder for them to know what you where really after.

I almost always ask the Johnson what he feels about his runners making additional acquisitions (obviously not for zero notice runs) responses range from no to it serves my interest sometimes with a first right of purchase demand.

Edward
fistandantilus4.0
We just go for the expensive stuff. Nice example, played in the Mercurial adventure a while back. At one point, there's a decker w/ an excalibur deck. Of course we grabbed it, who wouldn't!? Good idea? maybe not, but we got a ton of cash for it selling it off to a local deckmeister.
Usually though, when I grab stuff, I don't fence it. I give it to a contact that may find it useful. More of the "trading favors" variety. Saved my butt more than a few times.
Kanada Ten
The rules for tracing them and what they do are under "Hustle It Along" right previous.

QUOTE
And that's only if you meet with a fence. If you are doing direct sales via Connected Edge, you are no longer fencing the loot, you are Connecting.

Sure.
toturi
No mention of fence or fencing in Connected, K10. And it brings me back to the point that there are no rules for tracing stolen merchandise if they do not sell them. If Runner A uses that Thunderbolt that he stole from that LS last week, LS has no rules to trace it to being the one stolen last week.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (toturi)
Yes, they will show up. They just do not know what to do after showing up, but they will show up. biggrin.gif

No, they're coming after the item. You can houserule that they don't know why they're there, though.

QUOTE
And that's only if you meet with a fence. If you are doing direct sales via Connected Edge, you are no longer fencing the loot, you are Connecting.


I'd like to see a quote. Connected aids you in fencing the loot, it is not a separate ruleset. Again, feel free to houserule it, but it ain't canon.

~J
Rev
It mainly depends on how much the loot is worth to you compared to your other sources of financing. If you are being payed poorly enough looting even pistols starts to make sense sometimes. If you are making more money you would only be tempted by rarer and more lucritave things.

In general the higher the value and especially the availability of the fenced good the more traceable it should be. Also the longer you wait before selling it the safer it should be. If you go on a shooting spree and kill ten guards someplace and the next day you are selling ten of thier blood spattered standard issue weapons you are definately giving the fence more than weapons to sell. If you wait a couple months or sell them in smaller batches it is just another few smg's with some brown smudges you picked up in some illegal way.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
And it brings me back to the point that there are no rules for tracing stolen merchandise if they do not sell them.

Other than the mentioned Ritual Tracking and exculding implanted tracking signals and totally ignoring all fluff texts and previous adventure modules, you're might be right. I don't care since the discussion was about selling the loot.
Edward
There may be exceptions to this but I like to clean anything I loot before I sell it. Blood stains and dirt traces are not good, the sterilise spell is.

Edward
toturi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 25 2005, 11:10 AM)
I'd like to see a quote. Connected aids you in fencing the loot, it is not a separate ruleset. Again, feel free to houserule it, but it ain't canon.

~J

The word fence is not in the description of the Connected Edge. Feel free to houserule it, but it ain't canon.

The rules in SR3 p237 are for Fencing The Loot. Connected isn't fencing, it is buying and selling.
Kagetenshi
The description of the Connected edge just says you get the best possible price. It doesn't include rules for selling the item.

Try again.

~J
toturi
QUOTE
This contact can buy or sell that contraband at a price that always benefits the player character.[/B]


QUOTE
(the contact will always buy and sell for the best possible price)


You do not only get the best possible price, your contact will always buy and/or sell too. Try again.
Kanada Ten
Fencing even includes "Using a regular contact" as a modifier to the time test. The only ways, using canon, to avoid selling through the fencing rules is prearranged deal and keeping the loot. And I suppose, toturi will argue that Connected text implys a constant prearranged deal.
Smiley
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
By Canon, there is no game mechanic to trace stolen mechandise. And you know me: what is not Canon is not in my game.

Funny, my copy of SR3 says (on page 238, last sentence under "The Meet"):
QUOTE
If the original owners of the loot are coming after it, they will show up at the meet as well.

No rolling, no tests: THEY WILL SHOW UP. That's canon.

Let 'em show up. You've already got all their gear, they'll be outgunned.biggrin.gif
Seriously, though, how are they going to show up if they're dead? I've never seen anyone loot something from a living guard/mercenary/opposing 'runner.

Our game has grown to allow for (and even incorporate) the obligatory lootnanny that follows every shootout. We've even had drones expressly for hauling the load. If you ask me (and I guess nobody really did, but this IS an open forum), the previous owners of everything you take automatically knowing who and where you are, when and where you're meeting, and then showing up, guns a-blazin' is crap. That exerpt says "IF the original owners are coming after it..." Besides, it sounds to me like the sentence is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.
toturi
QUOTE
Fencing even includes "Using a regular contact" as a modifier to the time test. The only ways, using canon, to avoid selling through the fencing rules is prearranged deal and keeping the loot. And I suppose, toturi will argue that Connected text implys a constant prearranged deal.


Yes, but using a Connected Edge, you are bypassing the entire Fencing rules and going straight to the Connected Contact. You are not fencing, you are buying and/or selling.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Seriously, though, how are they going to show up if they're dead? I've never seen anyone loot something from a living guard/mercenary/opposing 'runner.

Original owner is the corp in most cases. And best of all, they know all your tricks and abilities now.

QUOTE
You are not fencing, you are buying and/or selling.

My argument was better. Fencing means buying and selling.
toturi
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
Seriously, though, how are they going to show up if they're dead? I've never seen anyone loot something from a living guard/mercenary/opposing 'runner.

Original owner is the corp in most cases. And best of all, they know all your tricks and abilities now.

They do? How? Are there any rules to find out the runners tricks and abilities?
hahnsoo
"Geek the mage first... then take all his stuff." Ever see the price lists for magical foci? There's gold in them thar thingummies...
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
They do? How? Are there any rules to find out the runners tricks and abilities?

Record/watch them slaughtering your people. Study the scene after the fact. A perception test.
toturi
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 25 2005, 11:53 AM)
QUOTE
You are not fencing, you are buying and/or selling.

My argument was better. Fencing means buying and selling.

No, fencing is a limited form of buying and selling. If using a Connected Edge was using a fence, it would have been noted in the text.

A 4+ success on perception by canon can only tell you "The perciever know what it is, but has no specifics without further information or examination."
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE
Fencing even includes "Using a regular contact" as a modifier to the time test. The only ways, using canon, to avoid selling through the fencing rules is prearranged deal and keeping the loot. And I suppose, toturi will argue that Connected text implys a constant prearranged deal.


Yes, but using a Connected Edge, you are bypassing the entire Fencing rules and going straight to the Connected Contact. You are not fencing, you are buying and/or selling.

Nice houserule.

By canon, you're fencing to your Connected contact. Fencing is limited to stolen goods; if you want to sell non-stolen goods, the fencing rules don't come into effect. The goods this thread is talking about are quite stolen.

~J
AIM-54
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 24 2005, 10:57 PM)
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 25 2005, 11:53 AM)
QUOTE
You are not fencing, you are buying and/or selling.

My argument was better. Fencing means buying and selling.

No, fencing is a limited form of buying and selling. If using a Connected Edge was using a fence, it would have been noted in the text.

Technically, it's buying or selling stolen goods. I would include goods taken from fallen enemies as stolen. Therefore, if your contact purchases your stolen/looted AK-98, you have just fenced the assault rifle.

EDIT: What Kagetenshi said. nyahnyah.gif
Kanada Ten
You should read the rules. The implication is that even selling in a prearranged deal is fencing. In fact, the only rules for selling things are in the fencing section with little tack ons like the Connected edge.
QUOTE
Depending on what the runners have to sell, the fence can easily be one of the team's regular contacts, such as a fixer or talismonger...


QUOTE
A 4+ success on perception by canon can only tell you "The perciever know what it is, but has no specifics without further information or examination."

That's all you need to fuck up a team of runners: know what it is.
toturi
If buying and selling to your Connected Edge is fencing, it would be noted in the Connected text. The Connected contact is not a regular contact, it is a Connected contact. Unless you are saying that all your regular contacts are Connected.

The perciver know it is a dead guard. That is all. Great.
Kanada Ten
Why? There are no other rules for selling things.

QUOTE
The perciver know it is a dead guard. That is all. Great.

Now you're just being a fucktard. It's a bullet hole from an Ares Preditor, it's an astral signature of a Powerbolt, it's a runner on the tape, it's a blooy foot print, it's all the things that the runners did.
Kagetenshi
That's a good point. By canon, characters cannot sell anything unless they fence it.

~J
hahnsoo
The Connected Edge also doesn't magically (ha!) make any sort of tracing or tracking go away. Presumably, if the contact was enough of a friend, they would be able to prevent some of the heat from coming your way, but if a corporation (for reasons unknown) really wanted to hunt you down, the Connected Edge isn't going to stop them from pulling all the stops to trace all of your stolen "hot" items back to you (and your contact, who may not be alive much longer). Anything from gun signatures (which may or may not be serial numbers... could be electronic protocol codes, microtransponders, even hidden datadots) to Friend of Friend rumors (corps are connected as well) to contracting a local private detective (and there's always magic) can make stolen goods a liability.
toturi
There are. "Making legal purchases." Except someone else other than the runners are making the legal purchases.
Kagetenshi
Where are the rules for Player Characters selling things legally? Page and column, please.

~J
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (toturi)
There are. "Making legal purchases." Except someone else other than the runners are making the legal purchases.

All those rules are for buying goods. The rules for buying illicit goods even imply a meet... and a meet where one buys or sells illicit goods? Covered in the Fencing section!
toturi
SR3 p273. The buyer does not need to be the runner. The runner can be the seller.

Those rules are for buying things legally. So NPCs can jolly well buy things from the runners legally.
AIM-54
QUOTE (toturi)
SR3 p273. The buyer does not need to be the runner. The runner can be the seller.

Those rules are for buying things legally. So NPCs can jolly well buy things from the runners legally.

Goods taken from the dead bodies of fallen foes hardly qualify as "legal".
toturi
QUOTE (AIM-54)
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 24 2005, 11:11 PM)
SR3 p273. The buyer does not need to be the runner. The runner can be the seller.

Those rules are for buying things legally. So NPCs can jolly well buy things from the runners legally.

Goods taken from the dead bodies of fallen foes hardly qualify as "legal".

Well, the NPCs do not need to know that, do they?
AIM-54
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (AIM-54 @ Feb 25 2005, 12:14 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 24 2005, 11:11 PM)
SR3 p273. The buyer does not need to be the runner. The runner can be the seller.

Those rules are for buying things legally. So NPCs can jolly well buy things from the runners legally.

Goods taken from the dead bodies of fallen foes hardly qualify as "legal".

Well, the NPCs do not need to know that, do they?

So knowledge of the source of the good determines legality? Curious.
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