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FrostyNSO
Whatever happened to Icarus Descending? Or the Alabaster Maiden?

Others are missing, like Syberspace, and The Big Rhino.

Am I looney, I coulda sworn these were in the old seattle sourcebook, but we're talking ancient history here so I could be wrong.
fistandantilus4.0
The Big Rhino. THere's a name I haven't heard in a while. Guess they were looking for new stuff.
ef31415
I was very disappointed in New Seattle. There was no Seattle in the Seattle. For instance, on the cover there was absolutely nothing that said you were in Seattle -- no Space Needle, Mt Ranier, Puget Sound, Ban Roll-On Building, anything.

==Ed
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Feb 25 2005, 07:21 PM)
Whatever happened to Icarus Descending?  Or the Alabaster Maiden?

Others are missing, like Syberspace, and The Big Rhino.

Am I looney, I coulda sworn these were in the old seattle sourcebook, but we're talking ancient history here so I could be wrong.

Big Rhino and Icarus Descending are on p.120.
Alabaster Maiden and Sybrespace are on p.121.
They're in the Location Index. You get a name, address, and ten or so words on each.
The entire description of Big Rhino is, "Large restaurant, ork cuisine." New Seattle, 120.

I find it incomprehensible that Dante's and Club Penumbra aren't completely wak in New Seattle (CP did get a slight diss in SSG), given the sheer amount of suspension of disbelief it takes to think either would be around, let alone major spots, after ten years.

Of course, New Seattle is a retarded name for an SB. meh.
Snow_Fox
the old Seattle was and is excellent. It really gave yopu a feeling that this was a place where people lived and loved. New Seattle was more caught up with this is corp A, this is corp B on we go. It seemed endemoic of the poorer quality stuff FASA was producting at that period, they seemed to lose sight of what made SR work.
FrostyNSO
Agreed. I don't know exactly what it was, but the old Seattle book just had more personality. New Seattle reads like a textbook at times.
Paul
Anyone read that Seattle 2064 update that was on TSS? Supposedly they'll be releasing the rest sooner or later....
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Anyone read that Seattle 2064 update that was on TSS?

<shakes fist>
Jrayjoker
And when a dragon shakes a fist, look out.

I have not been able to read New Seattle like I could SSB. I thought it was just me.
Snow_Fox
nope. it wasnt just you. it was just them.
Adam
I'm curious as to what you think FASA should have done with New Seattle.

An updated Seattle book had to be produced. Seattle Sourcebook was 9 years old, and it no longer had the look-and-feel of the Shadowrun line. Simply re-printing Seattle Sourcebook was not an option. If they had simply re-packaged Seattle Sourcebook with an updated layout and updated art, fans would hate it and think it was a rip off. Plus, the timeline had moved, so parts of the city had changed, and of course a lot of the shadowtext is no longer valid, as SR1-style shadowtext was often very focused on the immediate time frame.

Disregarding flaws in the execution of New Seattle [that is: dry writing, poor pieces of art, etc], I thought the concept was pretty good. It still had a bunch of short locations that a GM could use, almost all of which had some sort of plot hooks, and it also had a bunch of good information about corps, crime, and the city government -- all stuff that I think is pretty useful for building a campaign.

Seattle Sourcebook has long been one of my favourite books, and it was certainly one of them that really made my eyes go wide as it pushed the possibilities of Shadowurn directly into my head. Likewise, I think New Seattle is a worthy successor -- I don't think it's that different from Seattle Sourcebook, to be frank. The main differences: It's shorter, and more page count is devoted to explanation text about major subjects on a Seattle-wide scale, as opposed to descriptions of bars and clubs.

So, how would you realistically build a Seattle book?
mfb
i find that i need both NS and SSB to properly run games in Seattle. NS has more useful info about politics--criminal, national, and corporate (if there's really any difference)--and 'big picture' stuff. SSB, on the other hand, has maps, and lots more neighborhood info. i really don't use the locations provided by either unless it's necessary, though i do enjoy reading about them--in SSB moreso than NS.
Snow_Fox
Adam, you responded? To quote Rostand, "That somehow fails to surprise me."
QUOTE (Adam @ Feb 26 2005, 11:56 AM)

Disregarding flaws in the execution of New Seattle [that is: dry writing, poor pieces of art, etc],
and that made all the difference. bad art and poor writing turned in into little more than number crunching and an almost a yellow pages index of corps.
QUOTE


Seattle Sourcebook has long been one of my favourite books, and it was certainly one of them that really made my eyes go wide as it pushed the possibilities of Shadowurn directly into my head.
Here you and I are in absolute, complete and utter agreement. I remember buying when visiting my parents, curling up in an easy chair by the fair and litterally just pouring over it for hours. If the original SSB had not been so wonderful, I don't think I would have such a bad view of NS, but it went up against what is arguably one of the best Source books ever written.

Instead of a whole new SB this could have been a chapter in a Target SB, a chapter updating Seattle while listing other cities, would have not been as likely to draw fire as it would have been just a part of a book instead of a new volume.
Adam
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Adam, you responded? To quote Rostand, "That somehow fails to surprise me."

Newsflash: I care what people think about Shadowrun stuff, even if I don't always agree with them.
FrostyNSO
If I remember correctly, I remember the blurbs on the clubs and restaurants in old seattle giving the places more personality.

Dantes, sure it has the seven levels of blab blah blah, but really it was just another club (a big club) in a sea of other clubs.

Without looking in the book, what distinguishes club Penumbra from the Underworld 93 aside from location? What pops into your head first?
I find I have to think before I come up with anything.

Not like when i think of Icarus Descending. Instantly, I think, "Racist Elf Establishment".

Or the Big Rhino. "Ork cuisine? What is ork cuisine?" Alabaster Maiden. "Tart who turned herself to stone. I outta be able to hire a mage here."

I dunno. Maybe it is just me.
I find that I default to my memories of the old seattle sourcebook more often and only use New Seattle when I need quick info on Lone Star or the Halloweeners.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Without looking in the book, what distinguishes club Penumbra from the Underworld 93 aside from location? What pops into your head first?
I find I have to think before I come up with anything.

Two words: Concrete Dreams. At least in Shadowrun canon, they are bigger and more well-known than the Beatles (and the Beatles said they were "bigger than Jesus" at one point).
Kanada Ten
From the top of my head, Penumbra is a dingy, loud runners nightclub, while Underworld 93 is a celeberty hot spot that show cases the hottest talent.
FrostyNSO
I don't see a band ever becoming bigger than the Beatles were in their day and age. Even nowadays, bands come and go so fast that most can fall into the "fad" catagory. There is so much out there and it is so easy to be exposed to new sounds. I don't see anyone shocking the world like the Beatles did ever again. If so, Concrete Dreams must be way out there musically.
Kanada Ten
Wouldn't all you'd have to do is tap the Chinese market?
FrostyNSO
Yeah, and just about every other record company in the world will be trying to do the same thing.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Wouldn't all you'd have to do is tap the Chinese market?

Depends. Whilst China has a lot of citizens, people that have enough disposable income to buy albums and the like are a lot more limited.
Weredigo
Nah, yer not wrong, I have the Seattle Sourcebook. You need info on the place, PM or Email me...
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Feb 26 2005, 04:34 PM)
Dantes, sure it has the seven levels of blab blah blah, but really it was just another club (a big club) in a sea of other clubs.

Nine levels, actually.

Which reminds me. I wrote this as a counterpart to someone else's "Dis Lounge" (I think it was DE) that was used for when they ran Brainscan on SL.

QUOTE (The Phlegethon Ring)
The Phlegethon Ring is the outer ring of the Seventh Circle at Dante's Inferno. Clubgoers first enter this Circle of the club from any of the four spiral staircases circling the club on the way down to Hell. This ring is the section of the Seventh Circle where violent sinners spend eternity, and the imagery and ambience has been tailored accordingly. Those who enter this Circle are first treated to the sight of the large minotaurs who stand at the entrance to the Circle from the stairwell landings. Inside, the Ring is mainly composed of large and always-reserved booths which extend around the Circle. Those who reserve the booths may also request table service of their favorite libations at hyper-inflated costs, or anything else that they wish to order from the club's menu. Sim peddlers float throughout the ring and in the forest of suicide shades separating the Phlegethon Ring from the glass dance floor in the middle of the Circle as they prey on yet another vice-seeking partygoer to make a buy.

The layout of the ring is designed to appear to look like a river of boiling blood. Various magical and technological effects enhance the illusion, such as the crimson steam which shoots out from the floor at random intervals from jets located around the ring. The walls behind the booths appear to be forever dripping with blood, which also randomly emits red puffs. Because the club's owner wasn't about to stick rock formations around the ring, he has made due by having the partions between the booths cast out of carved ferrocrete which is painted to look like jagged and bloody rocks. The booth cushions are deep crimson velvet and black. The tables also appear to be large rocks with flat tops, with menu guides built into the table. Various staffmembers wander through the ring magically disguished as centaurs or other creatures which dwell in the Seventh Circle as they make their way to the bars which are also located in Phlegethon. The bars themselves also appear to be dripping with blood like the walls while minotaurs (or what appear to be minotaurs) serve the drinks..


There's also a Dante's in London and Hong Kong according to NS, even though SOTA63 says, "[Purgatory Central, in Atlanta] is the first international venture by the owners of the famous Dante's Inferno in Seattle" (112).
tisoz
Does that mean that London and Hong Kong can not be 2nd and 3rd?
Crimsondude 2.0
Well, Purgatory was new in SOTA63, whereas NS predates it. However, "new" is vague enough in SOTA that... it could be, and probably they are. It's just weird wording.

But OTOH, I vaguely recall a 1e or 2e book mentioning a Dante's in Milan and some other city. I must investigate !!
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Feb 26 2005, 02:26 PM)
Adam, you responded? To quote Rostand, "That somehow fails to surprise me."

Newsflash: I care what people think about Shadowrun stuff, even if I don't always agree with them.

Sure, but you and I have done this dance, on this topic, before.
Adam
I believe we have.

So, if Rob emailed you tomorrow and said "Snow Fox, design a new Seattle book" -- what would you do? Just make it a chapter in a Target: Blah book? What would the chapter cover? What information is vitally important for people to run games in Seattle, and what could hit the cutting room floor? Don't assume that someone has Seattle Sourcebook, don't assume that someone has New Seattle. This book is going to be the book about Seattle for them -- the baseline that their Shadowrun experience will grow on. What does it cover, and how?
Demonseed Elite
I really did like the format of New Seattle. As has been mentioned, I just thought the writing lacked flavor (and now that someone pointed out the illustrations, I'd have to agree there too).
akarenti
I haven't been around long enough to remember the SSB, but I was suitably impressed with New Seattle. It's really the only location book in 3rd Ed that goes into any detail (SoNA and SoE were great, though, just more general). It isn't one of the books I read for fun, but I it's a great reference. I can find just about anything in the book very easily, so if I need a "club in Redmond," I can find a name, and a few words to get the juices flowing.

I mean, books like MitS aren't exactly a miracle of modern fiction, but no one much complains. I just look at New Seattle as more of a reference material than a literary experience.
Snow_Fox
A chapter in a Target book could be limited to just the updates in the corp ownership, with the rise of new AAA's and the loss of Fuchi, and the completion of the Arcology. Otherwise the original SSB is fine with maps, lay out sec rating etc.
Other suppliments like Blood in the Board Room and the organized crime SB's had already covered a lot of the stuff that were seperate chapters in the old SSB.

My point is the changes could be limited to a chapter of a book, not an entire book on it's own. since NS rates an entire volume, then it gets comparerd to entire volume the SSB, and when compared to that excellent book, then NS is a weak sister.
Crimsondude 2.0
Seattle is one of those places that definitely needed its own book. It is the central location for almost all of the action in Shadowrun. It is the original setting described in the core rule book.

And it definitely needed a facelift after ten years. The problem is, it didn't get one. All that corp/government/OC info? It's in the back of The Seattle Sourcebook.

You all know my opinion of Kenson's (lack of) writing skills, so I won't beat that horse. It's already decaying due in no little part by other people.

More to the point, Seattle needed its own SB, not an update, because SR3 did something that SR2 didn't really do (and even if it did, the Seattle SB wasn't that old, relatively, when SR2 was released)--It attracted new players; players who had no idea about the history of Seattle in the first ten years of Shadowrun. And Seattle has changed a lot. Sure, some of the locales haven't, and I think that's weak. But someone coming to SR in SR3--assuming they could find a copy of the The Seattle Sourcebook--would read that book and have no clue about how all of so many little comments and ideas became historical plot elements.
Kanada Ten
Were I given full control over a new Seattle Sourcebook, I'd begin with a fresh layout scheme to see what it looked like. Instead of going by area, I'd have sections such as Government (including policlubs), Corporate'topia (mostly divided by corporation, but including executive retreats and wageslave haunts), Entertainment (nightclubs, restaurants, malls, etc), Underworld (actually one of the better parts of New Seattle - this would be more about the places that things go down in), Free Zones (places in the Barrens and Underground), each detailing locations (like specific places, not regions and such) written by character locals (not local authors), covering players and actions with shadowtalk, and then a Culture Shock (the only non location specific section) describing the interesting neo-tribal, elven, and so on.

I'd use detailed maps (both interactive online and in book) to pull it all together. Continue with the full page images at each chapter start - and these would be very important I'd spend a great deal of time choosing the art for these pictures and making the artists understand the vision (which seems to be happening at least to a degree).

I'd also expect the book to be as thick as SoNA or SoE and cost around $30-35.
jklst14
Perhaps the answer to the current dissatisfaction is a new Net Book?

Possible contents could include:

1) A chapter on the Ork Underground and its unique culture/environment. IIRC, DNA/DOA ventures there but otherwise, there isn't much other canon material that I can recall.

2) Detailed descriptions of other interesting Seattle neighborhoods such as Tarislar, the International District, the University District, Glow City, Hollywood etc...

3) Writeups on other Seattle gangs that are described but never fully fleshed out such as the Ragers, the Leather Devils etc...

Also, since people are unlikely to all agree on a single vision of future Seattle, we could format this new project like the old Plastic Warrior's "Players Guide to House Rules" (from way back in 1998). So instead of just one writeup on the Ork Underground, we could have three separate ones, each written by someone different and offering a different vision for players/GMs to chose from (e.g. Ork Underground Option A - Total Anarchy versus Option B - Rustic Ork Tribal society versus Option C - Trog Utopia )
ef31415
Works for me.

TSS is doing a Seattle Supplemental. Maybe add on to that?


Xirces
Isn't this sort of thing what the wiki is for?

I'd actually prefer that format (rather than straight book) for a city guide - this way you can have an area with specific addresses and locations and maps, but have them cross-referenced so if you want to know where Penumbra is you can view the map, or go straight to the area and see what else is around.

Interactive maps would be cool - checkboxes for displaying specifc items (bars, clubs etc) or rough gang terrorities - maybe even additions/subtractions over time for things that aren't constant...

Most important thing is searchable and cross-referenced smile.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
NS definitely lacks for decent maps.
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