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Bandwidthoracle
Ok, we where joking after a session and we came up with this.
Mage learns channeling, and mage has a trama dampner installed.
Mage summons at the maximum force he can, uses the karma rule to get one successes. He botches the resistence test, but it dosen't matter because the trama dampener keeps him awake, (one box of deadly will transfer to stun). He has his accomplise heal him, waits 15 Min, and channels the spirit, suddenly he's a demi-god.

Is there something to prevent my little horror story from happining?
sidartha
Yea.
After 12 hours of your little Demi-God running around Ghoastwalker will step on him.
Other than that.......Not much wink.gif
SirKalamon
I believe the karma rules indicate that one must achieve atleast one success on the test before one can use the burn a point of karma for an extra success, but then again it is burning a point for it,or simply reroll failures but that doesnt garrountee anything anyways.The best bet is probably to be a mage to store the services away for later use because when one is dealing with TN's that high one will not get that many successes no matter how much karma one spends.
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (sidartha)
Yea.
After 12 hours of your little Demi-God running around Ghoastwalker will step on him.
Other than that.......Not much wink.gif

Dosen't take 12 hours to mess up a careful plot. Any statistical ramifications?
toturi
Perhaps p162 SR3 can help you.

QUOTE
Physical damage caused by Drain cannot be healed using Magic, only by rest and medical attention.


Since both Stun and Physical damage due to Drain cannot be healed by Magic, what is the problem?
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (toturi)
Since both Stun and Physical damage due to Drain cannot be healed by Magic, what is the problem?

Ok, cool I was hoping there was a reason this wouldn't work, we've never had anyone try to heal drain with magic, so I didn't know there was a rule against it
Fortune
There's also a time limit on how long the mage can channel the Spirit.
Endgame50
Living up to that book ninja title I see. *grin*

Good catch though!
Sandoval Smith
In regards to your sig, I actually prefer the previous line, where Fighter exclaims, "With gravity slain, now we can fly!"

Anyway, if the intervening fifteen minutes are filled with people shooting at them, it might be a problem holding out till that point. Also, you can't magically heal drain, so while he's going to be full of spirity goodness, he's also going to be one box away from a deadly wound. It's not going to be easy to hurt him, but all it's really going to take is one moderate.

*edit* Crikes you people are fast. I was referring to Sidartha's sig in my post.
Eyeless Blond
And yes, you can't buy successes by burning Karma Pool (remember this is *burning*, not just spending; it doesn't come back) unless you've already scored one success on that test. P. 246 SR3
BitBasher
Also, an above poster pointed out that you must earn one sucess naturally before you can burn a point of karma pool to buy a success.
Edward
Remember in order to get the spirits immunity to normal weapons you need to channel a great form spirit.

It steps out like this.

Summon whoopee big spirit. (Hard to do and risks deadly drain)
Invoke whoopee big spirit to great form (harder to do and risks deadly drain)
Teem medic patches you back together using mundane medicine (very difficult to get it all)
Choanal spirit (I think this required a conjuring test, target force so not easy to do)
Be uberest bastard in all creation for a few minutes.
Resist deadly drain as spirit leaves you.

Could work for a hermetic that can conjure the elementals weeks in advance, an fact if I was a hermetic with channelling and the ability to invoke it I would keep a force 6-8 great form air elemental with 1 service remaining on call at all times to channel s a “get out of dreck fast card”

Assuming you managed to pull this off why would ghost walker or any other entity have a problem with it? They may have a problem with what you do with it but I don’t see why they would have a problem with your method.

Edward
tisoz
Limit of Force = 2 * magic rating
Magic 6 or 7 (trauma damper, initiate)
Force 12 or 14 Spirit
Charisma is probably 6 or 8, so drain is Serious or Deadly Physical (no magical healing, be mean and check for magic loss)
Invoking test for great form (to get immunity to normal weapons) TN 24 or 28, need 1 success or spirit goes uncontrolled
Second drain test TN = 2* Force so 24 or 26 S or D physical drain.
Channeling test TN = 2*Force, each success gives 10 minutes
At end of channeling, (Force)D physical drain

All are physical drain because force exceeds magic rating.

So first limiting factor is trying to keep the drain stun.
Second limiting factor is trying to hit that Force*2 TN.
Third for hermetic is cost of conjuring materials, third for shaman need it to be great form to cross domains, or possibility of having drain modifiers if conjured on the spot (+all other TN mods that may apply under what could be less than ideal situation.)
Sandoval Smith
So instead of wicked super deadly uber-munch, this seems to be a case where you hear the rattle of dice, followed by the GM stating. "And then... mage EXPLODE!"
DragginSPADE
As it should be. Great power comes with a great price. Of course, channelling a force 6 spirit still makes you pretty buff though.
tisoz
My last shaman had centering, invoking, and channeling. I never wound up channeling a single spirit. I doubt I would have tried above force 5, and it was an elf with Charisma 9, Magic 8 (got a point of cyber/bio w/o geas), aptitude conjuring (don't know why I was allowed this, maybe oversight or intimidated?), +2D6 for city spirits. Before the trauma damper, I usually only conjured Force 4 because of drain. I also had a string of bad rolls once where 3 straight times I tried to invoke a Force 5 great form and had it go uncontrolled, even with a karma re-roll. 42 straight dice without hitting 10 or above. I went back to Force 4s.

I played in a game with a guy that had an ally spirit. He got extra dice from it for the channeling success test and the drain test since they occurred at seperate intervals. I saw how fantastic Ally aid dice are for conjuring.
Zeel De Mort
Well the mage/shaman would have to be at least initiate grade 2 to attempt this and, if he's in any way sane, would be WAY higher initiate grade than that.

If you're a very very high level initiate, and particularly if you're a mage, it is possible to channel something like a force 12 greatform, and higher if you don't mind burning a lot of karma a few times to hooper-nelson those target numbers down.

But even so, Immunity to Normal Weapons 12 doesn't guarantee you'll survive everything ever. Sure your body will be in the high teens, but there's plenty that can still hurt you.


Still, it's something everyone of great power should be trying now and then. wink.gif

Ideally you want to have an aptitude in conjuring, a ridiculously high charisma (by using a quickened spell for example, with lots of rerolls/burnt karma), a ridiculously high initiate grade and... a ridiculously high force spirit!

Hey presto, a ridiculous amount of fun and destruction.


As an aside, if you're talking about REAL "munchkin" channelling, has anyone had a character channel a free spirit before? If you've bound it already, I don't see why you couldn't channel it too. Think of all the nice powers you, personally, could get access to then.
Garland
Create Wealth would be a nice start, but if you're a munchkin mage, you've probably already made a fortune selling gold radicals. rotfl.gif
tisoz
QUOTE (Target: Awakened Lands)
Once the time of channeling is up, or the magician voluntarily chooses to end it, the spirit departs back to the metaplanes, its service to the initiate concluded


Congratulations, you just freed your spirit!
Weredigo
QUOTE
Ok, we where joking after a session and we came up with this.
Mage learns channeling, and mage has a trama dampner installed.
Mage summons at the maximum force he can, uses the karma rule to get one successes. He botches the resistence test, but it dosen't matter because the trama dampener keeps him awake, (one box of deadly will transfer to stun). He has his accomplise heal him, waits 15 Min, and channels the spirit, suddenly he's a demi-god.

Is there something to prevent my little horror story from happining?


Well, yes, and no. Houserule: Demigods and up do not allow themselves to channel through others. However this MunchkinMage still has the ability of becoming an Avatar.
Large Mike
Godwalker of the Munchkin?
BitBasher
QUOTE
As an aside, if you're talking about REAL "munchkin" channelling, has anyone had a character channel a free spirit before? If you've bound it already, I don't see why you couldn't channel it too. Think of all the nice powers you, personally, could get access to then.
There is a reason you can't do it. For you to do it it explicitly states the spirit must have services. Therefore free spirits, watchers, and allies cannot be channeled because they have no services.
Prospero
I think technicaly, when you bind a free spirit, you get "an unlimited number of services" so maybe it would... but probably not in my campaign.
Kanada Ten
I don't recall the word "service" being used in the Binding a Free Spirit section. Can someone offer a quote?
Cynic project
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Ok, we where joking after a session and we came up with this.
Mage learns channeling, and mage has a trama dampner installed.
Mage summons at the maximum force he can, uses the karma rule to get one successes. He botches the resistence test, but it dosen't matter because the trama dampener keeps him awake, (one box of deadly will transfer to stun). He has his accomplise heal him, waits 15 Min, and channels the spirit, suddenly he's a demi-god.

Is there something to prevent my little horror story from happining?

Or you could just fallow a LOA, get invoking and have a much easier time getting and holding onto the spirits that posses you.
Zeel De Mort
MitS, p115 Binding a Free Spirit:

QUOTE
If the binding test succeeds, the spirit is bound.  It cannot disobey specific orders, nor can it directly attack or harm its master.  It must come when called, like a bound spirit, and it never runs out of services.


Kinda implies that it has services, and that those services... never run out? smile.gif So they're unlimited. So you can channel it as often as your willpower will allow!
Kanada Ten
Well, it comes down to a complete clash of rules. My reading of it would be that one cannot channel a free spirit because "never runs out of services" and "owes no more services" means they can't be combined.
Prospero
Or you could say that, yeah, it never runs out of services normally but since you channelled it, all its unlimited services got reduced to zero when its done and... you've got one angry free spirit on your hands once it gets back from the metaplanes. Although I suppose you still have it's name to use again. But that takes an a number of minutes equal to its force. So you might be able to bind it again, if you survive...
hahnsoo
Binding a powerful Free Spirit for channelling reminds me of a quote one of my roommates used in the face of certain defeat in online gaming: "This will not end well."
tisoz
I think you only get one chance to bind a free spirit, so if it was successfully done the first time, freeing it doesn't allow for another binding.
BitBasher
QUOTE (tisoz)
I think you only get one chance to bind a free spirit, so if it was successfully done the first time, freeing it doesn't allow for another binding.

Cause if you fail, it's standing in front of you MIGHTY pissed and you prolly just blew all your karma trying to bind it. It's an ass whooping buffet ad you're the main course. biggrin.gif
Edward
Well if you want a tequnique for getting a powerful bound free spirit, bind something week with the karma drain power and take it threw the barons order it to incree its force and now you have a bound powerful free spirit.

Edward
BitBasher
To my knowedge the only thing that has a karma drain are Shedim, which can't be bound... am I wrong? I'm not sure...
Critias
Maybe they can be. But I'm not tryin' it.
Jrayjoker
Coward.
Edward
There are some nasty tricks with shedim, especially if you can placate them.

Consider taking a healthy sinless individual from the barons and installing in him 5.99 essence worth of cyber wear heal him up and then kill him. Now have your pet shedim inhabit the body. Train the spirit to operate the cyber wear properly allowing it to drain karma from the opponents you use for training and soon you will have a powerful soldier that is very hard to kill. Put a bunch on the field together and when 2 have died the spirits just swap bodies.

You can even use dead cyberzombies for shock troupes.

Edward
tisoz
what is scarier is when your buddy gets killed, then gets back up and attacks you. So kill the enemy and have your trained shedim go inhabit the enemy body if it gets killed.
Prospero
I dunno. Its the "trained" and the "shedim" in the same sentence I'm having problems with.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Prospero)
I dunno. Its the "trained" and the "shedim" in the same sentence I'm having problems with.

How about... "controlled through powerful magics"?
Prospero
What kind of powerful magics? Control thoughts? I dunno - shedim have some pretty wierd thoughts and the drain would get old fast. Especially with two of them. And if you do it with an anchored spell, it goes away when the shedim changes bodies. And then it's pissed.
BitBasher
Custom spell, Control Spirit or Spirit Suggestion, would canon as a custom spell if the GM allowed it.
Prospero
I was going to say that the spell creation rules don't allow that, but I just looked them up and they actually only say that you can't summon or banish spirits with spell. Still, I really think that any GM who wants to save himself a major headache wouldn't allow those spells since they duplicate conjuring abilities. I mean, if you have a summoned spirit and someone casts "Control Spirit" on it... what the hell happens? Do you get a control test to retain control of it? What does the spellcaster use, the force of the spell or conjuring or what? And if its possible, every sec mage ever would have that spell, making conjuring almost worthless - "Hey, you've got a badass spirit ready to whoop me? *casts Sprit Control* Ooops, too bad, now I have a bad-ass spirit ready to whoop you." Plus, you could then control spirits who you can't summon, like mages having nature spirits contolled and... I could go on.

So other than that... I suppose you could sustain something like a Control Dead Body and physically force the body that the shedim has inhabited to do what you want. But you couldn't force it to use cyberware or anything like that.
Fortune
A Control Spirits spell would definitely be a part of most Sorcerers' repetoire.
Herald of Verjigorm
You could make a restriced control thoughts or control actions that only works on spirits. It still won't be as convenient as a successful conjuring, and is less spell point efficient than learning the open use version, but it may work.
BitBasher
It also woundn't be as useful as you think, because it would only really work on spirits that are not under orders, or free spirits, as they MUST follow their orders. I would rule you could not make them do somehting that violates their direct orders from their summoner.
Prospero
Whatever you want to allow, I guess. I would never allow that in any game I was running. Makes conjuring spirits nearly worthless, even with the "can't go against direct orders" thing. I mean, all you have to do is sustain that for a while on a spirit and get all the services you want out of it. Screw summoning or spending all that money (for hermetics). Use somebody else's spirit. Hell, even their ally spirit. Or one that's been karmically bound to guard the location you're raiding. Or, hell, summon your own spirit once and then, no matter how many services you get out of it, just mind control it to do whatever you want. For hermetics, you would never run out of services, ever - just have it hang around for a while (less than 24 hours) and control it to do whatever you want, without ordering it around. Then send it away for a while to avoid the 24 hr limit and call it back a bit later. Unlimited spirit services. For shamans, you only have unlimited services until sunrise or set, but it's still sick and wrong. Presto - conjurors become obsolete.

Way, way too twinky for my tastes.
BitBasher
Er no man, it's not a substitute for services, I was trying to say it would have a very limited scope. It could not be used to duplicate any services.
Prospero
But services are what spirits can do. So you're saying that it can't force a spirit to do something that must be done as a service - ie nothing except moving around (more or less)? Just about everything else is a service, or can be.

Or how about insect spirits? Not so much of a threat anymore if you can mind control them, especially the Queen. They don't have services as we know them. Or free spirits - no longer necessary to know their true names to make them do what you want.

Either its way too twinkified or nearly useless.
BitBasher
I lean twards nearly useless. Lots of things happen that are useless, it's the way the world is. smile.gif
Prospero
Fair enough. I suppose that's one way to fix the issue. rotate.gif
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