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SirKalamon
With the deadly over damage rule, does the Ares HK MP-LMG automatically deal 24D + 5 over deadly damage at FA or is the base capped at 24D and only the successes of the attacker can cause over deadly damage?Also how many of you GM's use the deadlier over damage rule and up to what degree, 1.5 times body or simply over body?I use the over body rule to present the inherent real danger of combat and that even badasses fear gunfights.What are your opinions?
Arethusa
With overdamage, rounds fired can stage up to overdeadly. It isn't that great when you consider the fairly unmanagable TNs. Then again, with the ridiculous amount of recoil comp available...
SirKalamon
I find the HV LMG quite intimidating.It is simply that firing a gun like that at FA ( a task not easy to hit your target with the insane recoil but it is very possible with all the recoil compensation available) makes one success equal to 24D + 5 extra boxes of damage and the TN's to hit can be dropped to managble level to allow multiple successes and since the power is on par with assualt cannons it would extremly hard to pull even one success with heavy armor to resist it,let alone trying to stage down the damage after you beat your opponents successes.I just think about and fear that i get tempted to use it on one of my PC's, hah.
Austere Emancipator
I use deadly over-damage regardless of Power, and I allow over-damage without additional successes. Disabling someone's brain doesn't take a particularly powerful weapon, and being hit by 6+ (more or less) consequent shots tends to be bad for your health.

Of course bursts longer than 6 rounds are very rare in my games because of my autofire house rules, so over-damage on FA only really tends to come up with MMGs and more powerful weapons, and miniguns.
BitBasher
As far as I was aware the only time deadlier overdamage was capable of delivering more than 10 boxes was 1 box for each two sucesses the damage was staged beyond deadly after all was said and done. It happens after the damage is applied, which is after the body roll and the dodge and all that.
Austere Emancipator
The optional Deadly Over-Damage rule as described on sr3.126 does indeed only mention extra damage from successes, at 1 box per 2. If you do that, though, I cannot think of a good reason not to also apply over-damage to long bursts (or short, powerful bursts).
Edward
We always used deadly over damage and included long bursts doing over damage.

If your having a problem with recoil on the HV lmg try adding tracers. Now the damage code is 18d+5 but you have a -6 to target numbers that will help overcome recoil. Of cause if you actually intend to fire it in full auto your going to need a giro hanis and a few other tricks.

If I try I think I can actually create a vectored thrust drone that mounts two fixed LMGs. Side by side. If I use the Aries MP-LMG negating all recoil would be trivial providing a damage code of 27D+5. 21D+5 with tracers reducing my target numbers by 6.

If I pull out all the stops I can negate most of the recoil on a pare of Aries HV MP-LMG, 36 rounds pur complex action for a damage code of 42D+11. of cause I would almost certainly need the tracers to be able to hit so make that 30D+11.with a -12 to target numbers to hit (most of witch will counter the recoil penalties)

Bellevue it or not this combo is not yet all that powerful. Without special ammunition selection vehicle armour 3 or hardened armour 6 (light millspec) will bounce these rounds all over the shop. And once you pass a damage code of 15D+1 anything that rases it higher is largely academic, the base damage code is what matters for hardened or vehicle armour. Twin linking LMGs is really just a way to wast a lot of ammunition And say I have a bigger damage code than you

Edward
Critias
Yup, it's an asskicker.

A lot of GM's underestimate it, I think, and it's potential to out outright kill a character with a single action (even a burst from it, not a full auto attack, is almost gauranteed S+ damage on even the most dedicated combat character).
Tarantula
But edward, what you do is since you are using a drone, with sensor enhanced gunnery (not to mention all the rigger bonuses). You drop a 3 round burst on 12(6 a gun) people in the same turn. Blam.
Edward
Unfortunately you cant do that. When using full auto with an HV weapon each target must take 6 rounds, my interpretation would be that if you twin link the weapons as I did that would need to be doubled. Thus your minimum burst length is 12 rounds and you can do that to up to 3 people.

The next problem is that the last burst witch has all the recoil applied to it only has a -4 for tracers, probably not enough to ensure a hit. Especially considering you are on your third target.

Edward
Tarantula
Alright, 36 rounds total, /2 for vehicles = 18 recoil uncompensated. Put them on a turret each, with rating 10 recoil comp each, 8 left. Level 3 gas vents, 5 left. Some tracers, 0. Done.
SirKalamon
On a curious note,if using the Ares HV MP-LMG manually by a character and using a Max Gyro, would the recoil compensation of a gyro cyberarm stack?Also what if a character had two cyberarms and they both had the gyro arms and was using a two handed large gun like the HV MP-LMG?Would the recoil compensation of both arms apply while using the darn thing?
Lindt
The only time I ever linked HMGs was for a mil-spec AA gun. AV ammo supressing a T-bird is never fun. Stupid stupid PCs...

I dont see why not, your paying out the ass for the gyros...
Tanka
I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that it caps at D and adds to ther power alone after that.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Alright, 36 rounds total, /2 for vehicles = 18 recoil uncompensated. Put them on a turret each, with rating 10 recoil comp each, 8 left. Level 3 gas vents, 5 left. Some tracers, 0. Done.

No HV weapons can use gas vents, as no HV weapon has a barrel mount.

While I'm at it, where did everyone infer long bursts can do overdamage, I don't see that stated or implied anywhere... Only extra sucesses can do that, or what am I missing?

HV weapons are largely useless due to their inability to cancel recoil. They can't take barrel mounted mods. They are only really good for supressing fire...
Tarantula
Alright, so that leaves 8 instead of 5, put in tracers, you can drop that to what... 2 recoil left uncompensated? From 36 bullets? Not bad.
BitBasher
While I'm at it, where are people getting 36 rounds from, I thought the max rate of fire on HV weapons was 18?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (BitBasher)
While I'm at it, where are people getting 36 rounds from, I thought the max rate of fire on HV weapons was 18?

Paired HV LMGs, I think.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (tanka @ Mar 1 2005, 11:44 AM)
I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that it caps at D and adds to ther power alone after that.

They are talking about the Deadlier Overdamage rules, and House Ruling automatic weapons to apply Overdamage increases.
Tanka
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (tanka @ Mar 1 2005, 11:44 AM)
I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that it caps at D and adds to ther power alone after that.

They are talking about the Deadlier Overdamage rules.

For extra successes, yes. Not for extra bullets increasing damage past D.
Cain
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (tanka @ Mar 1 2005, 11:44 AM)
I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that it caps at D and adds to ther power alone after that.

They are talking about the Deadlier Overdamage rules, and House Ruling automatic weapons to apply Overdamage increases.

Tanka's got it right. I don't have my BBB handy, but the damage from extra bullets caps off at D. It's only if you roll extra successes that you get overdamage.
Tarantula
Don't forget, if you can stage up to high enough power, you can eventually stage into Naval damage via R3R rules.
Austere Emancipator
Naval targets just reduce the Damage Level by Hull+1 (just Hull vs. AV) and divide the Power by Bulwark+1. A non-naval weapon will "stage into Naval damage" no more than a pistol will stage into Anti-Vehicular damage.

...although, the pertinent section of R3, Ships And Normal Damage (r3.57) is really unclear about the whole thing. It doesn't say the damage code that has it's DL reduced and Power divided is the base damage code, but what you get after that math is the base damage level on a naval scale.
tisoz
Wouldn't linking the weapons impose a TN modifier? I'm assuming they are firing in parallel paths, so both are never on target at the same time. If they are angled to both be on target, then they are only sighted in for one specific distance, so any other distance is going to impose modifiers the farther it is from the set range.

Wouldn't more than one gyromount offset the effectiveness of the first? Wouldn't they work against each other?
Tarantula
Firstly, linking wouldn't, because they're gunnery fired weapons. Vehicle sensors automatically have rangefinders, at a minimum, which gives it the range, and the guns I would assume are automatically programmed to make minor angle changes in order to converge at that range.

Second: I never said a gyromount, I said a gunnery recoil compensator. Vehicle customization (like a gunnery gyromount) but better off for the vehicle as it doesn't add to handling checks while in use.
Fortune
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Second: I never said a gyromount, I said a gunnery recoil compensator. Vehicle customization (like a gunnery gyromount) but better off for the vehicle as it doesn't add to handling checks while in use.

I would think that the response about Gyromounts was in reference to SirKalamon's post.
BitBasher
I couldn't find linking weapons after going through r3... Page reference please? I did find quotes that pretty explicitly that it takes a complex action to fire a weapon, turret or not which implies weapons cannot be linked as such.
Edward
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Alright, 36 rounds total, /2 for vehicles = 18 recoil uncompensated. Put them on a turret each, with rating 10 recoil comp each, 8 left. Level 3 gas vents, 5 left. Some tracers, 0. Done.

Youíre off a bit. The weapon has 2 points of internal recoil comp. being heavy weapons on a vehicle recoil is doubled and halved so
36 base recoil.
-4 weapon integral
-18 gunnery recoil adjusters (max 9 on each hard point)
14 points of recoil remain.
12 tracers will not quite correct for this but will come close.

Now if we fire 3 * 12 round bursts the last burst has the full 14 points of recoil but only 4 tracers, your not going to hit anything with that.

The idea behind linking the weapons is only eluded to in R3
QUOTE (R3 page 136 @ second collum first new paragraph.)
single fixt mount weapons must be placed directly along the centre line. Twin mounts may be ether side-by-side along the centre line or may be placed on the left and right faring of the vehicle. If different weapons are placed on fixed mounts both must sit side by side along the centre line, to limit recoil imbalance (witch is really bad for vehicle handling).


What reason would there to be to mount 2 identical weapons side by side facing forward, you canít fire them at independent targets so they must fire together. Auto fire rules for longer bursts would be the logical rules to use. Given they do have 5 degrees of movement and a range finder in the sensor sweet a program to 0 the range correctly would be trivial.

Edward
Kanada Ten
You can link weapons, but it requires a drone pilot and a battletac set-up. Which is stupid really; one should be able to control all of a single vehicle's weapons with a complex action and a smartlink lv2. Point and shoot.
Tarantula
Ahh, so that drops the recoil to 36, 18, 14, -8 from 2 gunner recoil adjusters for fixed mounts (max is 4 each), 6 left, and under barrel weight on both, drops it to 4. A few measily tracers, and you're set.

Kanada, care to explain how a battletac allows linking of weapons?
Edward
How do you go from 36 to 18 to 14.

You seem to be forgetting the *2 recoil for heavy weapons

Also I was mounting each one on a fixed hard point to be able to have 9 points of gunnery recoil unjust on each.

Edward
Tarantula
Alright. I forgot they are classified as a heavy weapon, which keeps it at 36. From there, 9 gunnery each drops to 18. Integral recoil down to 14. Underbarrel weight on each down to 12. then 12 tracers drops that down to nothing. Toss in sensor-enhanced gunnery, and you have a nasty toy.
Edward
Good call on the under barrel weights.

Of cause you do need a body 4 vehicle to mount it and is 30D+11 (inc tracers) really all that much more effective than 25D+5 you can achieve with no recoil (and as yet no tracers) by mounting a pair of LMGs on fixt firm points on a body 2 drone.

Recoil.
Each gun only fires 9 rounds
Gas vent 4
Undebatable weight
Gunnery recoil 4
Net 0 recoil.

Edward
Tarantula
First, I just noticed that the MP-LMG gets 3 pts recoil comp built in. Thusly, the tracers will help out with firing on a second target total TN being net 0 changes to it also (because of the +2 new target mod). Anyway, as I always like to think about the high-refire rate guns... Now you can flatten bullets against body armor faster than ever!
Tarantula
Another quick thing I forgot about, swap the tracers for magnesium rounds, and now the damage isn't lessened by having them. Maybe use it for a vampire assault SUV? Go 4-wheeling and have protection when the wendigo comes by? Maybe for plinking cans on the fence?
tisoz
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Firstly, linking wouldn't, because they're gunnery fired weapons. Vehicle sensors automatically have rangefinders, at a minimum, which gives it the range, and the guns I would assume are automatically programmed to make minor angle changes in order to converge at that range.

As Edward said, the only way to do it according to R3 is to put them on a fixed mount.
Tarantula
Indeed. Which is why I originally assumed they were. But nothing says you couldn't put them on a fixed hardpoint (which is also a fixedmount) which has a max recoil adjuster rating of 9.
Edward
Magnesium round do make hitting easier but they have a tendency to catch fire if you use to many of them. 18 in each barrel is defiantly to many.

Personally I would extrailate the double weapons to allow more than one weapon in a turret to act the same way, ofcause that would require a turret that could hold the necessary weapon value. For 2 LMGs you would need a small turret. Also youíre limiting your total gunnery recoil to what can fit in a small turret, 9 points. If you had put them on separate hard points it could be 9 points each or if you had them on separate firm points 4 points each and a smaller vehicle carrying them.

Its not canon but it makes sense.

Edward
Tarantula
Honestly, if you're using a 5 sharpshooter autosoft, with a 5 pilot, thats 10 dice. Its quite unlikely you'll get more 1's than successes.

Thats how you link them, you put them on the same turret. God damn, I knew it was in there. The wording in SR3 says arm/disarm a weapon SYSTEM. I'd consider a single turret, to be a weapon system, or dual mounted fixedmounts.

The problem is then of course, that you only get 9 pts of recoil comp then. Resulting in 36 base, reduced to 27, then 21, and finally, down to 9 from tracer/magnesium. Which is a big painful to swallow. But not utterly impossible. I just realized, when converting a non-vehicle weapon to a vehicle weapon, you can't have any non-default external accessories other than an internal smartlink attached. I.E. unless it comes with an underbarrel weight, it can't get one put on. Dropping the TN from 9 to 7 would be extremely beneficial though, however unable to be done. It does however have an internal SL2, so that could be used, dropping the recoil mod to 7.... plus base TN of 4 leaves you at 11. Giving you a 29% chance for 1 success with 6 dice, 4% for 2 success, and 1/3% for 3 success. Having the drone shoot it removes the smartlink bonus, putting the tn at 13, but with 10 dice. 25% chance of 1 success. 3% for 2, and 1/5% for 3. Not really any better, but it leaves the rigger free to do other things.
Edward
Magnesium will give you problems if you keep using it for a long time each action you have used them in without allowing time for cooling counts as an automatic 1 for determining wether they catch fire. Within about 5 actions your gun will be burning (it dose seem strange that itís more likely to happen when the target is at long range)

Magnesium dose have the advantage that you can use more than 1 in 3 giving you even better target numbers to hit.

Usually you would not put 2 heavy weapons in a turret precisely because the recoil is to much to handle.

Edward
Crusher Bob
Guess all those WW2 bombers with dual HMGs in a turret were a really bad idea...
Fortune
No, the recoil just wasn't fully compensated.

And they were somewhat big-ass turrets when compared to the ones that would be on a van.
Edward
Well dual HMGs would actually work better.

Assuming they where not HV for a start

They would need to be placed in a medium turret this allows for 12 points of recoil compensation in addition to any integral to the gun.

This combination with nothing else added would allow you to fire 2 6 round bursts (3 rounds from each gun) each action with full recoil compensation. Each burst has a damage code of 16D+1. or a single 18 round burst including tracers for 22D+5.

Of cause such a turret must be mounted on a body 6 vehicle so its going to be a big bomber. Now I donít think planes of the era had much in the way of armour or redundant mauver controls so using standard ammunition it would take 2 of those bursts or a full automatic burst to reliably take one down. Doesnít seem to far off to me.

The problem with the LMG is that it will fit in a smaller turret, if you use the smaller turret however you canít fit adequate recoil adjustments and has a lower base power witch is a problem when dealing with hardened of vehicle armour.

Edward
Tarantula
Also, if you wanted, put gas-vent 4s on the HMGs and now you can drop to fully-auto completely compensated if the need arises. Again, this takes a body 6 vehicle to accomplish, and as such, is reserved for small tanks, medium aircraft, and large boats.
Austere Emancipator
Most people read the rules on small arms recoil and vehicle mounts to mean that 5 points of Gunnery Recoil Comp is enough to negate the whole recoil of a normal machine gun -- ie. that you first half the full recoil, then apply Gunnery RC, and in the case of heavy weapons then (maybe) double what (if anything) is left. Or at least that's what I always understood as being the consensus.
Crusher Bob
The fully loaded weight of a B-17 was around 50,000 pounds, and it seems to have carried 4 turret with 2 HMGs each, plus some other HMGS in pintle mounts...

I wonder if the R3 rules let you do this...

Also, here's a bit more interesting data (IIRC):

The number of rounds needed to bring down a heavy bomber:

HMG (50 cal) 100+
20mm cannon ~10-15
30mm cannon 3-5

The larger cannon were considerable more effective due to thier explosive nature, the HMG rounds were only really effective on the crew and engines, which is why such a large number were needed.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
I wonder if the R3 rules let you do this...

Probably not. With large vehicles, it's a good idea to just ignore the firmpoint/hardpoint limits in R3.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Most people read the rules on small arms recoil and vehicle mounts to mean that 5 points of Gunnery Recoil Comp is enough to negate the whole recoil of a normal machine gun -- ie. that you first half the full recoil, then apply Gunnery RC, and in the case of heavy weapons then (maybe) double what (if anything) is left. Or at least that's what I always understood as being the consensus.

Completely incorrect. Vehicle mounts specifically say they half regular recoil, or eliminate the double recoil penalty of heavy weapons. FA with a regular assault rifle = 5 recoil with vehicle mount. With a heavy weapon = 10. Assuming 10 bullets shot. After that, all recoil mods take effect.
Edward
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Most people read the rules on small arms recoil and vehicle mounts to mean that 5 points of Gunnery Recoil Comp is enough to negate the whole recoil of a normal machine gun -- ie. that you first half the full recoil, then apply Gunnery RC, and in the case of heavy weapons then (maybe) double what (if anything) is left. Or at least that's what I always understood as being the consensus.

I did consider that. Especially seeing that the gunnery recoil halving specifically happens after before compensators and the heavy weapons doubling applies to uncompensated recoil.

But then it said that the mounts effectively negate the doubling for heavy weapons.

I considered these points and decided that it would be far too easy to remove all recoil from any weapon mounted on a vehicle. Between a gas vent and a couple of points of gunnery adjustment any weapon would be fully compensated.

Edward
Austere Emancipator
I'm not in any position to argue the rules since I happily ignore them myself. You run them any way you like.

Though I might as well say this: turrets do not say they only cancel the doubling on heavy weapons. The entry for turrets says recoil modifiers (for all weapons) are halved before applying recoil compensation from any accessories -- notice how this is before the doubling of recoil with heavy weapons. The entry also says that turrets cancel the double-recoil modifier for heavy weapons.

Again, you run it any way you like.
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