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JaronK
If a Weapon Focus Monowhip (let's say force 1) is used in Astral Combat by a shaman (let's say he's charisma cool.gif, what's the power? On page 191 of the BBB it says "When used in astral combat, the weapon focus's Power is determined using Charisma instead of Strength." Now, since Monowhips don't use strength, and just do 10S, I'd assume in astral combat it does 10S, from this paragraph. However, on page 176 of the same book, the Astral Damage Codes table says an armed attack does (Charisma) + weapon focus damage, so I'd think from that he'd do 8S. Which is correct?

Likewise, would the same mage weilding a weapon focus Staff do (Charisma)M or (Charisma + 2)M?

JaronK
Crimsondude 2.0
It'd cause as much damage as my fist impacting with the player's face for even suggesting a Monowhip Weapon Focus.

I'd use Charisma + Weapon Focus, since the whole point of the monowhip's lethality doesn't really mean anything on the astral.
hermit
Can monowhips even become weapon foci? Didn't these need to be specially grafted and forged with special ceremonies and/or ingredients?
mfb
according to SR3, the weapon has to include some amount of orichalcum. according to MitS, this is optional. you could make the axle for the spool out of orichalcum, if your GM uses the SR3 requirements.
hahnsoo
I'd let my players use it as a very small club in Astral combat. Dunno about applying weapon foci dice to Whips attack tests.
hermit
The point is, to be present n astral space, the whip wire has to be enchanted too, right? And it's pretty hard to get a magical alloy onto a carbon hydroxide molecule chain ... unless you plan on destroying the molecule, that is.

Small club. I like that. Would it only be a small club weapon focus in the real world, too? After all, the whip wire would not get any more magical there ...
hahnsoo
QUOTE (hermit)
Small club. I like that. Would it only be a small club weapon focus in the real world, too? After all, the whip wire would not get any more magical there ...

You know, it wouldn't be all that bad of an idea, come to think of it... the Club part would be used for non-lethal encounters and add extra dice, and the monowhip part would be for throwing off the kid-gloves (and not add any extra dice). A sort of "double weapon"... I've been thinking of creating a revolver weapon focus specifically for pistol whipping with my current character, so I guess that would be a similar concept.
Tarantula
The monowhip is special, I'd give it a base damage of (Cha)L simply because it relies on the cutting ability of its monofilament for damage. This is the base whip damage, and thus I consider it to be fair. Also, this only applies if attacking a purely astral target, they would have to make the rolls to dodge their own attack, as if the target had dodged theirs (because well, the whip won't stop simply because it hit them, it'll go back around). This is already in the rules, and I say that if they're astral already, they automatically cause these rules to come up.
JaronK
Well, it only has to include some orchalium... I assumed it would be in the counterweight at the end of the whip, and in the wieght at the base of the whip.

I don't really see why a monowhip wouldn't deal damage appropriately in the astral. The astral is a place of feeling and intent, and most people probably believe the monowhip to be quite deadly, so it would work there just as well as an astral anything else.

JaronK
hahnsoo
QUOTE (JaronK @ Mar 1 2005, 08:30 PM)
I don't really see why a monowhip wouldn't deal damage appropriately in the astral.  The astral is a place of feeling and intent, and most people probably believe the monowhip to be quite deadly, so it would work there just as well as an astral anything else.

The same reason why a dikoted Katana weapon focus (if that could EVER happen) doesn't do more damage on the Astral Plane, or more appropriately, a poisoned/acid/fire-coated weapon. It relies on technology to increase its damage from its base template, that of a (STR)L whip. On the Astral Plane, the template of the weapon counts for more than the realworld damage code of the weapon.
JaronK
I've always assumed that if you had a weapon focus katana, then dikoted it, it would behave as a normal katana in the astral, but if you had a dikoted katana, and turned it into a weapon focus, it would behave like a dikoted katana in the astral.

After all, isn't a katana a club that uses technology to make it do more damage (namely metalworking and sharpening and all that)?

JaronK
Eyeless Blond
Exactly. Every weapon focus in the game should do the same damage as either a sap (Str+3 M Stun), a club (Str+2 M Stun), or a staff (Str+2 M Stun), depending on the Reach. After all, the astral plane and thus magic does not interact with technology at all, which is why spellcasting cannot ever affect a computer and people with cybereyes cannot use astral perception to see on the astral plane.

And I'm not being in any way sarcastic. Nope, not at all.
Fortune
You don't need to get any mystical alloy into the whip part. If you choose to use Orachalcum in the enchanting process, it could easily be incorporated into the non-whip part of the weapon. The wire itself can be enchanted just as anything else can.

Edit: Very late response to hermit. Too many windows open. smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 2 2005, 01:09 PM)
And I'm not being in any way sarcastic. Nope, not at all.

Damn! And I was all set to stomp all over that post too. nyahnyah.gif biggrin.gif
Tarantula
Actually, I retract my previous statement, a monofilament whip would do 10s astrally. I still would heavily enforce making them dodge their own whip after it goes through the astral form however.
hahnsoo
Ah. Semantics. Great. Let's have 20 posts on the subject of weapons and technology, then move on to the real subject, shall we? biggrin.gif

Hey, I think my explanation is better than the "Astral plane is touchy feely, and therefore, because I think the monowhip will damage me more, therefore it does". Didn't weapon foci all used to do (CHA + Force/2) M damage in 2nd edition?
Edward
Remember, according to the enchanting rules in MITS (and these are the latest ones I am aware of) you don’t have to add anything to the item when you enchant it. You just perform rituals over it and hope you roll good because you’re talking TN 20ish.

With no oricalcum or radicals you could enchant it so it would come with you. Of cause it is OR 10 so you want to use some materials to bring down the TN.

I would have the wait on the tip of the line be replaced with a unit of radical gems, the casing around the outside is plated with radical silver with inlays of radical gold and oricalcum.

As to its damage I think it would be more than a whip,
To extend the dicoat argument. This is my reasoning.
If you take a weapon focus and dicoat it, it dose not apply in astral combat because the dicoat is not part of the enchantment.
If you enchant a dicoated weapon as a weapon focus it will apply, of cause the OR of the weapon is probably higher.

High tech materials can be enchanted, its just harder.

What happens however when I enchant a weapon (say a Kris) as a power focus, can I use it as a weapon from astral space.

Edward
Necro Tech
Actually I asked about dikoting a weapon focus and was told that the benefits don't transfer if you do it before or after.

On the monowhip thing, how is anyone going to replace the weight on the tip? How are you going to reattach the line? I've always considered them factory only items and when they break you chuck them. Anyone ever bought a monowhip B/R kit?
Tarantula
How did they attach the line in the first place? Whip b/r kit, whips (monowhip) b/r skill. Get to it. Microscopic vision major bonus. I mean, hell, companies string up monowire lines without too much issue, it can't be that hard to attach it to a chunk of something.
Necro Tech
I would say a machine. You can't exactly tie it on. Logically (forgive my use of the word here) you would graft it on to a small rod and cast a weighted tip around it. I seriously doubt the weight can or was ever meant to come off.

If you want to replace parts with radicals use the spool, the handle, the screws that hold it together. You better have steel mesh gloves when playing with monowire.
ShadowGhost
QUOTE (JaronK)
If a Weapon Focus Monowhip (let's say force 1) is used in Astral Combat by a shaman (let's say he's charisma cool.gif, what's the power? On page 191 of the BBB it says "When used in astral combat, the weapon focus's Power is determined using Charisma instead of Strength." Now, since Monowhips don't use strength, and just do 10S, I'd assume in astral combat it does 10S, from this paragraph. However, on page 176 of the same book, the Astral Damage Codes table says an armed attack does (Charisma) + weapon focus damage, so I'd think from that he'd do 8S. Which is correct?

Likewise, would the same mage weilding a weapon focus Staff do (Charisma)M or (Charisma + 2)M?

JaronK

I'd say it's a 10S on the astral, plus Charisma.

However, it's one of those OMG items, especially pricewise - Base price is ¥390,000, availability 8 (so it's unavailble to starting characters), and street index of 2. So you're looking at ¥780,000 for a force 1 Monowhip weapon focus.

Lots of advantages, and lots of disadvantages; if you roll more 1s than successes you're looking at a (10 + Charisma)S you need to soak. Better have really high astral armor spell!!!!
JaronK
Okay, so, ignoring all that other stuff, and just going by cannon rules here, what's the astral damage of a Monowhip? (charisma)S or 10S?

JaronK
Tarantula
Shadow, you replace str with cha. Since str isn't a factor in monowhip damage, you just get 10S on astral with it as well. And, I would say if attacking a purely astral target, you have to soak on every attack, since the whip isn't physically hitting them. Unless you're purely astral also.
Tarantula
QUOTE (JaronK)
Okay, so, ignoring all that other stuff, and just going by cannon rules here, what's the astral damage of a Monowhip? (charisma)S or 10S?

JaronK

10S. It says replace str with cha, thats it. No str, same damage.
JaronK
QUOTE (Tarantula)
And, I would say if attacking a purely astral target, you have to soak on every attack, since the whip isn't physically hitting them. Unless you're purely astral also.

Well I was planning on using it when astral, since he's a less combat oriented shaman and doesn't have a whole lot of whips skill (but plenty of sorcery). Still, that seems pretty harsh when duel natured and fighting astral targets.

JaronK
ShadowGhost
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Shadow, you replace str with cha. Since str isn't a factor in monowhip damage, you just get 10S on astral with it as well. And, I would say if attacking a purely astral target, you have to soak on every attack, since the whip isn't physically hitting them. Unless you're purely astral also.


Sorry I missread something.... Hard to find things when your BBB is in two pieces, with pages falling out.

What I should have said is it just does 10S on the astral.

I don't believe you should have to soak every attack when you are astrally perceiving against a purely astral target - otherwise any weapon focus would just go through your target like air (while still doing damage). Makes for a really awkward astral combat.

If you are astrally percieving, then I'd say you and your focus are dual natured, so you could also (attempt to) ensnare a purely astral target, just as you could if you had a normal whip weapon focus.

YMMV
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
If I build a bomb out of oricalcum and enchant it, can I use that as a weapon focus?

How about a nuke?

rotfl.gif


Why am I even here? I should be studying for a test.
Nephron anatomy and physiology apparently doesn't have as much allure as positing the insane concept of an oricalcum nuke...
BitBasher
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (JaronK @ Mar 1 2005, 09:22 PM)
Okay, so, ignoring all that other stuff, and just going by cannon rules here, what's the astral damage of a Monowhip?  (charisma)S or 10S?

JaronK

10S. It says replace str with cha, thats it. No str, same damage.

I agree with this.
ShadowGhost
QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate)
If I build a bomb out of oricalcum and enchant it, can I use that as a weapon focus?

How about a nuke?

rotfl.gif

*ONLY* if you sit on it until it goes off... otherwise the Weapon Focus Deactivates.... but the bomb still explodes. eek.gif

Of course, with a reach of 100,000 meters..... it's way our of anyone's price range.biggrin.gif

As the rules say, only *Melee* weapons can be weapon foci. So unless you're a really, really big awakened troll who plans to beat people to death with your bomb or nuke..... it can't be a weapon focus.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
Well, yes, but I'm sure the U.C.A.S could find some Troll mage with a cowboy hat.

I mean, talk about a run. "Stop the Troll mage from blowing the nuke weapon focus-he's gotten to thinking somebody is stealing his precious bodily fluids."
Tarantula
You can't ensnare with a monofilament whip. Also, I always pictured weapon foci cutting through astral targets without any stopping, but thats just how you interpret things.

Literally speaking, if the attacker with a monofilament whip misses the target because the attack was blocked (more melee successes by target than attacker) or lack of successes (without getting any 1's) then there is no soak test. Only if the attacker beats defenders successes, and defender is using full defense and dodges attack, or more 1's than successes is there a whip test tn(6) to see if you need to soak. If that fails, then you soak the damage. Besides which, if you're dual-natured, fighting a purely astral entity, you're screwed already, because at minimum, they can dance around you all the want, leave, come back, hit you again, run off, come back once more, and so on. So, I don't feel bad about making them make a whip(6) test each attack vs a purely astral target to avoid hitting themself.
Tarantula
Reconsidering... I wouldn't, unless the target dodged/more 1's than successes. I realized that weapon foci are dual natured (thats why they can hit astral stuff) and thusly, astral entities would stop them (as things can't exist in the same spot in the astral either).
Edward
QUOTE (Tarantula)
I would say if attacking a purely astral target, you have to soak on every attack, since the whip isn't physically hitting them. Unless you're purely astral also.

What do you mean by that?

Why would you need to soak anything
In normal combat a miss dose not automatically mean you have to resist the damage yourself. Why would it in astral combat.

Edward
Tarantula
Edward, there are special rules for a monofilament whip in normal combat, if the target dodges, or more 1's than successes are rolled in the attack test, the attacker must then make a tn(6) whip test. If that fails, the attacker must soak his own whip damage (10S). Since then, I've changed my view, and say if attacking with a weapon focus monofilament whip against a purely astral target, only if the target dodges completely do the rules come into effect. If using the whip in a willpower contest, I'd say you have to make the whip(6) test or get hit by your own whip, since the astral entity wouldn't stop the mundane whip at all.
Crimsondude 2.0
I still prefer what was going to be my purely original answer before I decided to actually respond to his questions seriously: Punch the player in the face for being a 'tard and wanting a monowhip focus in the first place.
JaronK
Any DM tries that and I'm going to charge him for assault and get his ass arrested, doing 8-10.

It's just a game. Damn man.

JaronK
Edward
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
I still prefer what was going to be my purely original answer before I decided to actually respond to his questions seriously: Punch the player in the face for being a 'tard and wanting a monowhip focus in the first place.

And I still say why.

The availability on a monowhip is huge (24/14days, even a twinked out face adept wont call that easy). The availability on a weapon focus one would be higher.

Realistically it is going to have to be commissioned or made for self.

If he commissions it then the guy making it will know it is going to be hell to enchant. between the high reach (witch dose not increase cost to make but dose increase market price) and the street index he wont need to up the price but being a shroud business man he will explain that it will cost more to use more oricalcum to get it done faster. And then he my well fail at the first attempt to enchant it. Roll the test TN 12+force-units of oricalcum the player thought to pay for. It could take months to get the thing.

If he wants to make it himself then he needs to deal with the realities of enchanting. Up to a month with minimal rest and having to use all that oricalcum or almost certainly fail. He needs to buy a shop and it would be unfortunate if a run became available while he was working (I would only do that if he failed and said he started again immediately).

And when it’s all over what do we really have, its not actually all that powerfull compared to a combat axe or a polarm weapon focus not considering the increased difficulty to make anyway object resistance being what 5 points higher.

Edward
Endgame50
Except for having really high power unrelated to strength, being highly concealable, and having exceptional reach, you're right. It's not much better than a pole arm.

I'd just demand to know how they enchanted a monomolecular line. If it's not oricalcum, I would assume they would have to do *something* to the weapon's striking part so it could properly channel one's aura's power--that's the basis of weapon foci needing to be in physical contact with the wielder after all. And if just the handle gets enchanted, then we're back to the really short club again.
JaronK
Again, you can make a weapon focus sword with all the orchalium in the pommel, with a dikoted steel blade, if you so desire.

So why can't you do the same with a monowhip? Orchalium in the counterweight and the handle, monowire in the whip part.

JaronK
Endgame50
I'm sure you could, but you would logically (Yeah I know, logic and SR) need to do something to "enchant" the actual cutting surface too. It's not canon, but that's how I'd rule--there's a lot more to enchanting than just finding some oricalcum and attaching it to a weapon. I'd have trouble believing any explanation where the non-sentient handle of a mono whip could figure out where the astral equivalent would be at any time without some sort of enchantment process being done to the actual monowire.
tisoz
QUOTE (Endgame50)
Except for having really high power unrelated to strength, being highly concealable, and having exceptional reach, you're right. It's not much better than a pole arm.

I'd just demand to know how they enchanted a monomolecular line. If it's not oricalcum, I would assume they would have to do *something* to the weapon's striking part so it could properly channel one's aura's power--that's the basis of weapon foci needing to be in physical contact with the wielder after all. And if just the handle gets enchanted, then we're back to the really short club again.

So unless they hold the sword by the blade, they can't use a sword as a weapon focus? Sounds like only clubs can be weapon foci in your game.

In my games, I take the availability of the weapon into consideration when they want to get a weapon focus (or any kind of focus.) It is not just the availability 8 for a weapon focus. It could be the availability 2 of the knife or the availability 24 of the mono whip. They need to be able to meet both requirements.

I had a player wanting a dikoted katana weapon focus (or two) for his blender adept. He wanted to use standard wepon costs and standard weapon focus cost. I had to ask why any enchanter would charge the same to enchant a dikoted sword (high tech modifiers) as they would for a normal sword? "It's in the rules." sarcastic.gif

Who cares, if doesn't make sense? Using normal probabilities, it would either take much longer for the enchanter to make the focus, thereby not being able to make another focus at the same time, or they would have to spend more for things to make the enchantment simpler, like adding orichalcum to the process. So when someone wants something bordering on the ridiculous, they get to pay more for it.
Hasaku
You just "do it." It's a magical process; you don't need to touch the line or put any special materials on it. Part of the enchanting process is that the great mojo becomes part of the weapon, every part, which is more difficult because the line is so high tech. If you detatched the line and enchanted the handle as a reach 0 weapon focus, then reattatched the line, you'd have your magical club and mundane line. Otherwise, it works fine.

edit: Dammit, even when my timestamp says I posted first I get beaten to it eek.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Edward)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Mar 2 2005, 04:57 PM)
I still prefer what was going to be my purely original answer before I decided to actually respond to his questions seriously: Punch the player in the face for being a 'tard and wanting a monowhip focus in the first place.

And I still say why.

Because I'm a mean, petty bastard.
Endgame50
Nah, I'd just assume they'd do something to the blade as well--the blade doesn't necessarily have to be in direct contact with the wielder of the focus. It's just a personal bias that I'd rather have things make sense than not--I hope I've been presenting my opinions as just that--my opinions. I'm by no means suggesting everyone else should do it my way.

Anyway, I think your method is probably more balanced than some out there--which is my second concern. I'd make sure to charge for labor time. Gunsmiths charge about 100 nuyen per hour... standard rate is 50 nuyen per hour... how much might an enchanter charge?
tisoz
QUOTE (Endgame50)
I'm sure you could, but you would logically (Yeah I know, logic and SR) need to do something to "enchant" the actual cutting surface too. It's not canon, but that's how I'd rule--there's a lot more to enchanting than just finding some oricalcum and attaching it to a weapon. I'd have trouble believing any explanation where the non-sentient handle of a mono whip could figure out where the astral equivalent would be at any time without some sort of enchantment process being done to the actual monowire.

Putting the entire item through the enchanting process is what "enchants" the blade. You make it sound like an assembly line where each part gets enchanted and then somewhere down the line it gets assembled. Also you make it sound like if every part doesn't use orichalcum to link it to another part or the magic users hand, the enchanting stops at that point. I hate to comment how silly that seems to me.

If you insist on using the fluff text to require orichalcum not only to be incorporated in the weapon, but in each and every part of it consider this process. During enchanting the orichalcum magically takes on a vaporous quality and permeates the focus. It can't be seen at all at that point. It doesn't alter the properties of the item used as a focus.
tisoz
QUOTE (Endgame50)
Nah, I'd just assume they'd do something to the blade as well--the blade doesn't necessarily have to be in direct contact with the wielder of the focus. It's just a personal bias that I'd rather have things make sense than not--I hope I've been presenting my opinions as just that--my opinions. I'm by no means suggesting everyone else should do it my way.

Anyway, I think your method is probably more balanced than some out there--which is my second concern. I'd make sure to charge for labor time. Gunsmiths charge about 100 nuyen per hour... standard rate is 50 nuyen per hour... how much might an enchanter charge?

The rates are in the back of MitS. They are cheap IMO.
Endgame50
To clarify, I'm not saying oricalcum should be used in every part--it's really optional, as has been noted. I'm just saying it's reasonable to expect every part of the weapon be "treated" somehow as part of the enchantment process. And it's hard to enchant something only a couple molecules across--possible, I'm sure. But not easy. If you want to use the vaporeous oricalcum solution, by all means.

It's not an assembly line, but at the same time, just enchanting the handle of a weapon seems like a job half done. Do the entire weapon, or not at all.

Too bad about the cheap rates--I suppose it prevents magical PCs from getting backrupted, but given their comparative rarity and the pain in the hoop required to create a focus, you'd think their services would go at a premium.
Fortune
Which is where the higher TNs come into play when Enchanting highly technical objects.
Cochise
According to SR3 weapon foci deliver the normal weapon damage => A monowhip weapon focus will do its normal 10S.

As for being able to cretae one: Enchant it at its OR of 10 ... If you succeed (either by meeting a high overall TN or by pumping lots of orichalcum into the enchanting process *it's never really said that all used materials go into the focus itself, some of the material might just be used up during the process*) feel happy ...
Until someone recognizes what you have there, takes you down with a ranged weapon and then sells it for big money ...
Edward
If I may clarify. Making a monowhip into a weapon focus doesn’t grant greater improvement that turning a pole arm into a weapon focus.

Remember you can enchant a weapon without using any oricalcum at all or any alchemical radicals. The TN to make a force 1 weapon focus on a virgin telesma stone headed axe is 8. The cutting edge would have mana woven threw it. And you can to this to monofilament, its just harder because it is so far removed from nature. And as JaronK points out we can put the oricalcum and radicals used to make the enchanting easyer in the handle and counterweight.

QUOTE ( Endgame50)

I'm sure you could, but you would logically (Yeah I know, logic and SR) need to do something to "enchant" the actual cutting surface too. It's not canon, but that's how I'd rule--there's a lot more to enchanting than just finding some oricalcum and attaching it to a weapon. I'd have trouble believing any explanation where the non-sentient handle of a mono whip could figure out where the astral equivalent would be at any time without some sort of enchantment process being done to the actual monowire.

very true but enchantment dose not require any material to be added. Your taking 28 days to make this thing, that is going to involve more than bolting oricalcum to the object.

My description of how to enchant the line would be to stretch it out between 2 objects and create a line of manna that would overlay and bind to the monowire, if I was feeling so inclined I may actually pass a chunk of oricalcum over the line (cutting into the oricalcum) as pat of the binding poses.

QUOTE ( Crimsondude 2.0)

Because I'm a mean, petty bastard.


in that case I shall ignore your opinion

Edward
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