ok so did anyone else notice that the ruling on regen for shape shifters and critters is that stun damage DOES affect the being. I know i have had this issue with my shape shifter PC before where the team is taking fire from gel rounds and he walks through them like they are not even there. They also have optional regen rules that make regen a lot less sick and wrong.
and for anyone interested in drakes, there is a HUGE chunk in there on them.
Full Version: new FAQ answers
First, I think it is an outdated FAQ answer, mostly from "Why do Deadly wounds evaporate with Regeneration, but near-deadly wounds take long periods to heal?" statement. According to the critters sourcebook, "For any other result, the creature suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn." So, all damage regens at the start of the next combat turn. Including stun.
I think the FAQ is introducing a completely new mechanic for Regeneration. The statement that Tarantula quotes could be taken to mean that on any other result other than rolling a 1 and/or 2 when taking deadly Damage, other Damage is not regenerated. I can see how some GMs see it that way, it depends on how they see "any other result".
But yes, the FAQ mechanic makes Regeneration less powerful than it was previously.
But yes, the FAQ mechanic makes Regeneration less powerful than it was previously.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| First, I think it is an outdated FAQ answer, mostly from "Why do Deadly wounds evaporate with Regeneration, but near-deadly wounds take long periods to heal?" statement. According to the critters sourcebook, "For any other result, the creature suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn." So, all damage regens at the start of the next combat turn. Including stun. |
I was aware of this , i should have been more precise in my question of what people thought of the new optional rules for regen. If im wrong and these were already there and i was just blind , i apologize for the beating of the dead horse.
the exact chunk of faq:
Does the Regeneration power of shapeshifters and other critters work against Stun damage? Do shapeshifters heal more quickly? Why do Deadly wounds evaporate with Regeneration, but near-deadly wounds take long periods to heal?
No, Regeneration does not work on Stun damage.
It does, however, make sense that shapeshifters and other regenerating creatures should heal more quickly. And it also fits that Regeneration should affect any damage, not only if it's Deadly or not. So we suggest this optional rule for Regeneration:
Each time a regenerating creature takes damage (Physical or Stun), roll 1D6. On any result other than 1 (or 1 or 2 in the case of damage caused by fire or other massive trauma/tissue damage), that damage will regenerate. Physical damage regenerates at the rate of 1 box per Combat Turn. Stun damage regenerates at the rate of 1 box per minute. Regenerated damage disappears at the end of the Combat Turn. Only one wound can be regenerated at a time, though Physical wounds heal before Stun (so a shapeshifter who takes 3 boxes of Physical and then a box of Stun must wait for the Physical damage to heal before the Stun heals).Damage from Drain cannot be regenerated. Damage that does not regenerate heals at normal speeds.
I realize that, but because the faq is asking why only deadly wounds regenerate with regen, it tells me that it is outdated, as I already read and played it as everything regens unless they died.
By the way, why doesn't it specify why it does/doesn't work on stun damage? Regen power says "the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next combat turn." Not "the physical damage" just "the damage" meaning all damage.
By the way, why doesn't it specify why it does/doesn't work on stun damage? Regen power says "the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next combat turn." Not "the physical damage" just "the damage" meaning all damage.
yeah its not worded real clearly. first you have this line:
| QUOTE |
| No, Regeneration does not work on Stun damage. |
then he optional rules, then this line:
| QUOTE |
| Damage that does not regenerate heals at normal speeds. |
so does that mean that in the normal rules, with the exception of 1's or 1-2's for fire etc. that all damage is healed at the end of the turn EXCEPT stun? mind you this could explain how a shapeshifter/critter with regen could be captured, knocking them out was/is impossible if you go by the books explaination.
*edit* i think this is why they have those optional rules, to try and explain how stun doesnt work the same as pyhsical. hell i dont know, im quite confused at the moment. I have been running with the book rules on regen for awhile now and honestly i almost like these better. i just wanted to know what others thought of this, be it outdated or comepletely new.
Heres a question, why, would a small bullet wound heal in 3 seconds... while a small bruise takes a minute?
Because it's magic, and regeneration on the timescale SR has it occur is biologically absurd.
So, God looks at the shapeshifter with the bullet hole and says, "Okay, you're wounded enough. Be healed," and it is so. God looks at the shapeshifter with the bruise and says, "Come back later when you're not wasting my time."
Then He looks at the shapeshifter who puts a bullet through his bruise, and heals the bullet hole but puts the bruise back, "Just because I'm a bastard."
So, God looks at the shapeshifter with the bullet hole and says, "Okay, you're wounded enough. Be healed," and it is so. God looks at the shapeshifter with the bruise and says, "Come back later when you're not wasting my time."
Then He looks at the shapeshifter who puts a bullet through his bruise, and heals the bullet hole but puts the bruise back, "Just because I'm a bastard."
I think it's more than just 'bruising'. For instance, I'm running on 5 hours of sleep, but no amount of spell casting will cure that. With 'luck', I"ll take an hour long test on Microsoft Project this afternoon. Healing won't help with that either.
Bruises runners can ignore. It's the fact that apparently bruises make you feel like you've been hit by a truck that's the problem (of course, one wonders then why getting blown down with an MMG doesn't cause stun too.)
Bruises runners can ignore. It's the fact that apparently bruises make you feel like you've been hit by a truck that's the problem (of course, one wonders then why getting blown down with an MMG doesn't cause stun too.)
of course that opens up the question what does one consider stun to be in damage terms. i know unarmed combat , gel rounds etc cause stun but does one see that as minor physical wounds (ie black eye, swollen lip, kick to the nuts) or something else? then to say that the swollen lip wouldnt heal is ... well, absurd. whole new can of worms, ill play with the optional rules abit and see if i like them , but ill stick with the idea that the faq is something i can ignore when im running my games. between the invisibility issue and this, it kind of muddied the waters more than cleared things up.
Good thing the FAQ isn't canon. Until they errata the book to make it physical damage in the description, the FAQ now blatantly contradicts the book, and the book IS canon. (Like the errata.)
I want to know if the FAQ author actually reads the books sometimes, or considers consequences.
I want to know if the FAQ author actually reads the books sometimes, or considers consequences.
Heres a better example. 20 strength troll hits guy with regen in chest with sledge hammer, causes a S stun wound. Why would this not regen?
Can someone request the person in charge of the FAQ come on ehere and tell us what he was smoking? 
Don't they usually come around and get a little defensive?
Well, Rob, who maintains the FAQ, and is the final person responsbible for it, doesn't post here very often. It is, after all, hard to argue with "What were you smoking?" ...
I've re-read the FAQ, and skimmed the relevant sections of Critters and SR3Comp, and I'm really not sure where the "blatant contradiction" is. I'm not so sure it's an intentional contradiction, but rather Critters and SR3Comp playing fast and loose with what type of damage can be regenerated, and Rob reading it one way while others read it another way.
Page numbers and quotes, anyone? Let's be productive, and not just throw dung.
I've re-read the FAQ, and skimmed the relevant sections of Critters and SR3Comp, and I'm really not sure where the "blatant contradiction" is. I'm not so sure it's an intentional contradiction, but rather Critters and SR3Comp playing fast and loose with what type of damage can be regenerated, and Rob reading it one way while others read it another way.
Page numbers and quotes, anyone? Let's be productive, and not just throw dung.
I don't remember it happening before, but before I can;t remember them directly contradicting the book on more than one point either.
the 20 Str + sledgehammer example is ridiculous, but not because of the regeneration power. it's ridiculous that someone that strong, hitting that hard, should be doing stun damage. any ridiculosity in the FAQ ruling is a reflection of this more basic ridiculosity.
it's also worth pointing out that the SR Comp does specifically note that regeneration only works on physical damage, though the Critters rules do not. one might come to the conclusion that it was the authors' original intent that regen only work on physical damage.
as well, in critters, the "for any other result" line refers to the die roll. in other words, if your shifter takes S physical damage from any source, by the book he heals it at the same rate any other living being would. only when the damage pumps up to D+ do its wounds magically disappear.
it's also worth pointing out that the SR Comp does specifically note that regeneration only works on physical damage, though the Critters rules do not. one might come to the conclusion that it was the authors' original intent that regen only work on physical damage.
as well, in critters, the "for any other result" line refers to the die roll. in other words, if your shifter takes S physical damage from any source, by the book he heals it at the same rate any other living being would. only when the damage pumps up to D+ do its wounds magically disappear.
| QUOTE (SR FAQ) |
| This FAQ is maintained by Rob Boyle, the Shadowrun Line Developer. |
| QUOTE (SR FAQ) |
| Thanks to Elissa Carey, Adam Jury, Steve Kenson, Christian Lonsing, Michelle Lyons, Jon Szeto and Larry White for feedback and assistance. |
yeah. git those pot-smokin' hippy interns.
| QUOTE (Adam) |
| Page numbers and quotes, anyone? Let's be productive, and not just throw dung. |
Amen Adam!!!!
I was quoting. Firstly, mfb, any rules laywer can argue quite easily that "any other result" includes the result of not having to roll the die at all. It is something other than getting a 1 or 2. And thus, regen regens everything each combat turn.
Second, in SRComp, its talking about shifter regen. I'll have to check the wording, but unless it explicitly states that shifters get critter regen ala critter book, they have their own, to prevent magically regenning all magic drain and being the super-casters. Thats the reason I think SRComp specified physical only for shifters, while critters lacks this specification.
Second, in SRComp, its talking about shifter regen. I'll have to check the wording, but unless it explicitly states that shifters get critter regen ala critter book, they have their own, to prevent magically regenning all magic drain and being the super-casters. Thats the reason I think SRComp specified physical only for shifters, while critters lacks this specification.
tarantula, any other rules lawyer would laugh at your rules lawyer until he ended up crying in the corner, never to crack open a rulebook again.
| QUOTE (Critters page 14) |
| ...the creature dies on a result of 1 or 2. For any other result... |
right. that's obviously not referring to the die roll result, since it a) uses the same wording as the first sentence which refers to the die roll, and b) immediately follows that self-same sentence. your rules lawyer isn't a rules lawyer at all. he's more of a rules Gabe.
the SR Comp states that PC shifters regenerate in "roughly the same manner" as NPC critters.
Personally, I think it's inane that if a 'shifter takes a Moderate wound, it heals at 1 box per turn, but if the damage is Deadly, it heals immediately.
yeah... but it's more inane that a shifter who takes a Moderate wound doesn't regenerate at all.
True. The damn thing should just regenerate all damage (physical and stun) unless it fails its roll.
Nerf regeneration! Let's all play Burrows and Bunnies or Chutes and Laders! 
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| True. The damn thing should just regenerate all damage (physical and stun) unless it fails its roll. |
Isn't that precisely what I said?
It's what I've said all along. But in this instance I was responding to mfb.
My view is that the stun SHOULD be not regen-ing stun from starvation, tiring/exhaustion, drain, etc. Gel rounds and general beatings should heal. 'Course that's just my opinion on what makes sense to me. Be nice if they made that distinction.
But yeah, if something heals a deadly wound, should be able to heal a light in the same amount of time.
how 'bout regen and deadly over-damage?
But yeah, if something heals a deadly wound, should be able to heal a light in the same amount of time.
how 'bout regen and deadly over-damage?
but then you get into the question of why stun damage from, say, starvation is different from stun damage from gel rounds.
Then there's the pseudo-stun damage from the new Ares sonic rifle.
basically, stun from an attack would regen from stuff like gel rounds , electric shock (aka tasers. after all, regens lightning bolts), stun batons, etc.
But stuff that's from exhaustions (say, running for 12 hrs), starvation, stuff that isn't inflicted damage to the body but is more wear and tear (and let's not forget drain) would not.
Ideas on why this would not make sense, or are you just looking for specific "this works, this doesn't, this works this doesn't"?
But stuff that's from exhaustions (say, running for 12 hrs), starvation, stuff that isn't inflicted damage to the body but is more wear and tear (and let's not forget drain) would not.
Ideas on why this would not make sense, or are you just looking for specific "this works, this doesn't, this works this doesn't"?
no, i just don't think it makes sense to differentiate between being punched in the stomach, and running for 12 hours. they're both dealing damage to your body.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| no, i just don't think it makes sense to differentiate between being punched in the stomach, and running for 12 hours. they're both dealing damage to your body. |
Yeah, I agree, mfb
(hey, that rhymes...
)
i think one's ability to manipulate dual objects while astral should be limited to normal movement speeds only--in other words, no picking up a dual object and then travelling at fast astral speed. otherwise, a force 1 focus could become a pretty potent weapon, when some projecting mage picks it up and then flies it into a building at a few thousand kph.
And does that also apply to starvation? that's damage to the body.Cells die, stomach acid eats the lining of your stomach, etc. Then a shape shifter would never have to eat.But their body automatically fixes a hole punched through it by a bullet ripping through it. Also fixes it if a troll w/ titanium bone lacing punches them. Are you saying that another troll with say Kevlar, or no bone lacing would be able to beat the shifter sense less because of is weaker hits?
On another line, what about extreme exertion where it does physical damgae. Literally running it's self to death. It renegerates from that? That's a whole other tangent. When the shifters muscles rip, does it automatically go back together, or doe sit fill in, as it would in a workout? Just kind of wondering on that one.
On another line, what about extreme exertion where it does physical damgae. Literally running it's self to death. It renegerates from that? That's a whole other tangent. When the shifters muscles rip, does it automatically go back together, or doe sit fill in, as it would in a workout? Just kind of wondering on that one.
that's an issue with the stun damage / physical damage division, not an issue with the regeneration power.
I'm trying to figure out how the stun/phys applies to regen should work.
I actually am running a game where a character was made into a vampire, and I'm letting him play it for a bit to see how it goe s(only adding essence to quickness. He's a weak vamp), and wanted to keep the game balanced (as balanced as possible) with the regen power. Get it's strengths and weaknesses before hand.
It's funny too, because 3 people that were his friends before have already nearly killed him for being a vamp. NOt really sure why they decided not too.
I actually am running a game where a character was made into a vampire, and I'm letting him play it for a bit to see how it goe s(only adding essence to quickness. He's a weak vamp), and wanted to keep the game balanced (as balanced as possible) with the regen power. Get it's strengths and weaknesses before hand.
It's funny too, because 3 people that were his friends before have already nearly killed him for being a vamp. NOt really sure why they decided not too.
honestly, the easiest way to balance the regeneration power is to just rewrite it. make it so that it reduces physical and stun damage by 1 box / combat turn, no matter how much damage you've taken. if he's brought to D damage solely by head/spine injuries (called shots, massive damage, etc), then he doesn't regenerate if he rolls a 1 or 2 on 1d6.
SO on that note, he did get pegged with a shot to the spine in the last session, deadly wound. But with body overflow, down, but not dead, and another question for that: magical healing. vamp essence 12, heal TN 2?
yep.
So if they do take a dealy wound, and no magicla healing available, they would still heal at a normal rate.
One of the things we were thinking about, since everyone seemed to say "ok, be a vamo, as long as you don't screw with me", which seemed a little to accepting, was to make them lose a point of essesnce each time they took deadely damage, and get some good blood lust going when they start to get low (2-4 points essence or so). Yes it is a house rule, but then again, it is a player playing a vamp. Sound fair? any suggestions? And yeah, I am making it hard on him (or trying to). The guy WANTED to be a vampire in a world where he SHOULD be hunted down.
That's the last one, I'll let it go back to the regular topic now.
Thank you, come again!
One of the things we were thinking about, since everyone seemed to say "ok, be a vamo, as long as you don't screw with me", which seemed a little to accepting, was to make them lose a point of essesnce each time they took deadely damage, and get some good blood lust going when they start to get low (2-4 points essence or so). Yes it is a house rule, but then again, it is a player playing a vamp. Sound fair? any suggestions? And yeah, I am making it hard on him (or trying to). The guy WANTED to be a vampire in a world where he SHOULD be hunted down.
That's the last one, I'll let it go back to the regular topic now.
Thank you, come again!
Sounds like a good deal, this also lets you power him down a bit if you need it (ie reduce his essence add to stats) by stacking on a few deadly wounds.
i had a vamp PC once, i kept him really underpowered after he contracted it. I made some of the Vamp powers into psuedo adept like powers, he had to spend karma to grow in power, they were not cheap either. worked ok for the short run , campaign fell apart after a couple PC moved out of town.
I could see regen going two sensical ways:
1) EVERYTHING regens (except possibly for hunger and lack of sleep). Good for vamps and other non-PC races.
2) Some portion of physical damage regens, and some portion goes into stun (to represent that a bullet still has effects very similar to a gel round.) Stun does not regen, or only does so slowly.
In general though, I stick with 2nd edition shifter rules. They got too uber since the upgrade.
1) EVERYTHING regens (except possibly for hunger and lack of sleep). Good for vamps and other non-PC races.
2) Some portion of physical damage regens, and some portion goes into stun (to represent that a bullet still has effects very similar to a gel round.) Stun does not regen, or only does so slowly.
In general though, I stick with 2nd edition shifter rules. They got too uber since the upgrade.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| 1) EVERYTHING regens (except possibly for hunger and lack of sleep). Good for vamps and other non-PC races. |
What about Drain from magical activities? If that's allowed to regen, your regenerators become a lot more powerful. Their magic would be limited only by how willing they were to suffer the temporary pain of drain upon themselves.
Doesn't drain say it can't be healed magically. Regeneration could be defined as a magical power that heals you, thusly, it wouldn't heal drain via the drain definition.
It's irrelevant. It'd be for NPCs only. Generally, they have bigger concerns then drain (assuming they're spellcasters at all). I'd just have to design them to compensate in other areas if it is a concern. After all, if I wanted to nuke my PCs, I wouldn't have to change regen rules to do it.
I was referring to runnerpaul nezumi. Everything regens that has the critter power regeneration. Shifters don't have this, so they don't get to regen stun from magical drain. As far as I'm concerned, vampires and the like do, its just good that they're not very common.
hmm, i think the best solution is to read the current regen rules so that when the critter is saved from dieing its not reset to full health but rather to max serious (one box below deadly). this way its saved from death but still needs time to fully regen.
and to me stun is just as much pain and shock as it is bleeding and so on from a punch. if you make a punch that winds someone its stun, if you make on that breaks a rib then you have done physical damage. ie, enough stun and your brain shuts down from sensory overload. one can then argue that physical damage shoudl allso so stun damage but to me the stun effect of a wound is baked into the physical one, or rather overshadowed by the fact that you now most probably have a bleeding wound somewhere. to bad sr dont cover bleeding, except from deadly wounds. but one can argue that anything but a deadly wound gives you plenty of time to patch up before the bloodloss takes you down for the count.
oh and my fav from the latest FAQ is the one about casting invisibility on a wall to make it transparent
and to me stun is just as much pain and shock as it is bleeding and so on from a punch. if you make a punch that winds someone its stun, if you make on that breaks a rib then you have done physical damage. ie, enough stun and your brain shuts down from sensory overload. one can then argue that physical damage shoudl allso so stun damage but to me the stun effect of a wound is baked into the physical one, or rather overshadowed by the fact that you now most probably have a bleeding wound somewhere. to bad sr dont cover bleeding, except from deadly wounds. but one can argue that anything but a deadly wound gives you plenty of time to patch up before the bloodloss takes you down for the count.
oh and my fav from the latest FAQ is the one about casting invisibility on a wall to make it transparent
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