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TeOdio
BitBasher is right. But it isn't the first time they said something that breaks their own rules. I went on a whole tirade about the Word Recognition Spell and how it doesn't conform with any other detection spell they have. Here's what I say. If a player in your game wants to do something like make a wall invisible, you either say yes or no. If the player says "the FAQ says...", you say, but retort with, "but the rules say...".
Better yet, if your players says, " the Faq says I can".
You say, "Where the hell did you read that at?"
They say, "on the Internet."
look confused and say with great conviction in your words,"What the FUCK is the internet?"
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
Critias
Or, maybe instead of just waiting for them to try something, slapping them down and proclaiming from on high that you don't think the FAQ "counts," you could instead just sit down with your gaming group and go over some of the things from various FAQs, Erratas, and your own head... and explain what house rules you're using, what rules you're changing or ignoring, what points of the FAQ are being used in your game, etc, etc.

But that defeats the "GM versus Players!" mentality lots of people seem to enjoy, so nevermind.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Critias)
Or, maybe instead of just waiting for them to try something, slapping them down and proclaiming from on high that you don't think the FAQ "counts," you could instead just sit down with your gaming group and go over some of the things from various FAQs, Erratas, and your own head... and explain what house rules you're using, what rules you're changing or ignoring, what points of the FAQ are being used in your game, etc, etc.

But that defeats the "GM versus Players!" mentality lots of people seem to enjoy, so nevermind.

But that takes up precious time which can be used for smacking! biggrin.gif

I do have a point with that flippant comment, though... it takes time to set down what rules you are using, what kind of game you are playing, what you will and won't allow. Some of it is based on awareness (if you never run into critters with Regeneration, you may never discuss how you are using it in your campaign), but a lot of it has to do with the amount of free time you have to spend gaming. Some people may have the time to sit down and flesh out everything, but most folks want to "just play" and worry about it later. Especially folks with lots of Real Life timesoakers like job, family, friends, favorite shows, etc.

Our group uses a group listserv so we can hash out some of our discussions on various house rules or interpretations online during the week, so we don't have to waste precious gaming time on those. If something hinky comes up during a game, usually we let the GM (whoever it is for that week) make the call, then discuss it later by e-mail on the listserv. It works pretty well so far.

We also don't use rule zero all that often (i.e. "the GM is always right")... it's really only necessary when there is a discrepancy in the rules and we want to move on. Even after the "rule zero" smacking, every player in the group has an equal say in the rules after the game, mostly because half of our players also rotationally GM. Equality and Democracy works better than Tyranny, in our game. YMMV.
hahnsoo
One thing's for sure: The FAQ stuff sparks a lot of discussion, and probably some good discussion on certain mechanics of the game (the whole invisibility/regeneration arguments are fascinating, when they aren't bashing the FAQ). I just wish that they would let us Shadowrun players/GMs discuss the items first BEFORE they slap it on the FAQ. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission, I guess.
Jebu
It doesn't even have to be a wall to cause problems. The same problem exists when looking through an invisible mage. Does the spell generate a painting behind the mage correctly? What if the mage never noticed the painting himself and so doesn't have a clue if it's a Mona Lisa or Scream? If the mage was standing in front of the painting before an observer entered the room, and neither of them has seen the painting before? If the spell shows blank wall, what will happen when the mage moves and the painting is uncovered?

And back to the wall-issue, even if you can't target anything behind the wall, does the spell still accurately generate an illusion of what really is behind the wall? It shouldn't be able to, it's not a detection spell, and spells are not intelligent.


I know I'm digging for trouble, as the spell's purpose is making others unable to see you. If you just stick to that and use it to sneak around guards nondetected, there's no real problem. Trying to apply real life logics to abstract rules system is bound to make the problems emerge.
bitrunner
i've got a simple solution that no one will like!

disallow the Invisibility spells - they have become the Turn To Goo of SR3...
Fortune
The only thing I really disagree with in the new FAQ (as far as Invisibility is concerned) is invisible wall granting LOS for spellcasting purposes.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (bitrunner)
i've got a simple solution that no one will like!

disallow the Invisibility spells - they have become the Turn To Goo of SR3...

Honestly I like this idea. The great thing is, we already have a substitute spell, one with much better mechanics and fewer odd rule complications that does thematically the same thing: the Camouflage/Physical Camouflage spells. The only reason to even bother with the Invis-type spells at all is that they're trivially better than Camouflage, which is kinda stupid.

Of course Camo needs a bit of work too, as the flat modifier it provides is just as dumb as the automatic Perception failure Invisability provides. How about something like it adds the Force of the spell, plus any net successes (maximum equal to Force), to the TN to spot the mage visually? An analogous mechanic would apply to the Stealth spell, which needs reworking for the exact same reasons. This way it's still quite possible, albeit unlikely, that you'll spot a mage with lots of successes and a high-Force spell, and low-Force spells still provide a tangible benefit, though not quite as wonderful and nearly broken as the low-Force version is currently.
DrJest
For myself, I'm not sure why the Invisibility spells aren't Manipulation anyway. It might make it simpler if they were; that way you could define them simply (light refraction/reflection).

Heck, you think the invisibility thing's weird? According to pure canon, walk into a darkened nightclub with Nightvision and you stand a good chance of not being able to see a small but significant percentage of the clientele.
Tarantula
Don't forget those heavily cyber guys have sigs of 4-5, 3-4 for trolls...
bitrunner
let's not forget the Phantasm spells - technically you could use it to cast Invisibility as well - you just cast the Phantasm of a room without the "invisible" subjects in it...
tisoz
QUOTE (bitrunner)
let's not forget the Phantasm spells - technically you could use it to cast Invisibility as well - you just cast the Phantasm of a room without the "invisible" subjects in it...

I thought someone would come up with this as an alternative. Shouldn't Phantasm be subject to the same interpretation, thereby solving nothing? They are in the same exact spell subset and work in similar ways.

I think it just made a couple other spells more needed. Camouflage and mask or physical mask. It also makes the critter power concealment that much more needed. IIRC, somewhere it says everyone concealed by the power is aware of each other. Or did that get erratta?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (bitrunner)
let's not forget the Phantasm spells - technically you could use it to cast Invisibility as well - you just cast the Phantasm of a room without the "invisible" subjects in it...

It's actually better than Invisibility, since Trid Phantasm is multi-sense.
fistandantilus4.0
I actually like the idea of changing invisibility to a manipulation where it does actually make the item transparent. That would do a few things. Raise the drain ( I think), and also make it susceptible to thermographic, which would make it less powerful. THen you can turn the stupid wall invisible, and no more arguement there.

'Course the nwe would argue about the balance about turning a wall invisible and cast through it. on that note, what's the max size of something you can turn invisible? It's noto realyl an area effect spell. COuld you turn a building invisible?

That would be hilarious just to watch the birds!
hahnsoo
For a manipulation version of Invisibility, drawing it up in about 10 minutes using MitS design rules:
QUOTE

Fading
M Drain for a Minor Physical Change (appearance)
+1 Power for Physical Spell and +1 Power for a Sustained Spell
Final Drain: +2M Drain. 

I'd say every success reduces the visual penalty for Blind Fire by -1 and increases the Perception test TN by +1, to a maximum of +8 or Force, whichever is higher... the more successes you get, the more the target "fades" from view.
The TN would be the OR of the wall or 4 for living creatures.
fistandantilus4.0
sounds like the camoflouge spell huh
hahnsoo
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
sounds like the camoflouge spell huh

It does? Camo gives you a blanket +4 to perception and ranged combat tests, and blends you with your background. This spell is a manipulation that simply turns someone translucent (or transparent, given enough successes).
fistandantilus4.0
sorry, don't have a book handy. "sounds" like
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
That would be hilarious just to watch the birds!

LOL... yes it would.
Necro Tech
And its already a righteous fun way to stop an armored car. Just turn the stopped car in front of it invisible. Ram tests are fun.
fistandantilus4.0
How 'bout a mana barrier (as in living things only) in front of a moving vehicle. Say... force 6-8 so it's like hitting a brick wall, but it only effects the driver, car keeps rolling along, smashing driver through barrier, back up against seat, rear of vehicle, etc.
SO much fun on a motorcycle!
BitBasher
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
How 'bout a mana barrier (as in living things only) in front of a moving vehicle. Say... force 6-8 so it's like hitting a brick wall, but it only effects the driver, car keeps rolling along, smashing driver through barrier, back up against seat, rear of vehicle, etc.
SO much fun on a motorcycle!

One, that spell doesn't exist nor does it work in 3rd edition. Two, even in second edition that spell wouldnt work on enclosed vehicles, only mororcycles.
fistandantilus4.0
I know, they took it out, although there's really no reason you couldn't make it. Just a mana only, non physical barrier. It would actually have a lower drain. I know they changed it to astral barrier. Did they ever actually say that it can't exist?

Never really thought about it not working on an enclosed vehicle. Why would that be? I suppose you could say line of site, but there's always the windshield. But hey, if you see someone in a vehicle, you can still hit them with a manaball, right?
I believe it just ups the TN +2.
Tarantula
No. By default, all cars have one-way tinted windows that prevent line of sight on any of the inner occupants. They starting coming default with this as soon as magic was realized to have that sort of power.

If someone did say, roll the window down or something, it would be the same as cover modifiers, probably a +4.
fistandantilus4.0
Just like everyone stopped smoking when they realized it wasn't healthy either? I don't see a lot of suburbanites taking manabolt into account when buying a car.
I can see a +4 though. MOving target, cover, etc
tisoz
Now just turn the window invisible.
Dawnshadow
Barriers require LOS to be effective?
So a barrier isn't effective against an invisible target?
Crimson Jack
I always thought that they created the caveat ruling due to the fact that its a no-brainer way to destroy an unsuspecting target. What about all of the vehicles that have a window smashed out, window down, or no windows at all? IIRC, the ruling was simply that it couldn't be used on moving vehicles, period. Right?
RunnerPaul
I seem to remember something about a vehicle being able to protect passengers inside of it from mana barriers due to the vehicles aural wholeness. When you're inside a vehicle, your aura is subsumed into the aura of the vehicle. Motorcycles and the like, can not provide the same benefit, because there's no "inside" for the passenger to be in.

At least that's the way I remember it being explained to me, but this was a few years ago.
Crimson Jack
That's a nice can o' worms, there.
mfb
it's incorrect, at least in SR3. page 150 of the BBB states that a magician can, indeed, target the driver and passengers of any vehicle he can see. what a magician can't do is target a vehicle component with a spell (a tire, a window, etcetera). that may be what RunnerPaul is thinking of.
hahnsoo
I'm not sure that what impacts (or doesn't impact, as it were) into a Mana Barrier counts as a "target" per se. The target of a Mana Barrier spell is the area that it is cast upon, I'm thinking, as a spell's target is what is defined upon the act of spellcasting. We never had a problem with the spell in our gaming group, but I can see why it was taken out of SR3.
Fortune
It has always been as RunnerPaul has said in regards to the old Mana Barrier spell and enclosed vehicles though. There was even an example specifically about it in SR1 (or 2?).
fistandantilus4.0
Interesting.
So can you turn the car invisible!? biggrin.gif
mfb
i did, with one of the two mages i run. we had it affect the car and all occupants, though, same as it affects a person and all their carried items.
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