And that, as they say, is the straw the broke the camel's back.

no. his point--and it's a good one--is that the inclusion of fantasy elements does not make it okay to create wholly unrealistic 'real' elements.

Let me put it this way, none of it is realistic to begin with. None of it.
The Ares Alpha does not exist. Elves do not exist. Dikote... does not exist. Cyberware... the combat rules? Well take a guess...
The only LOGIC for them being involved in the game universe are based on the mechanics (the internal game logic) of the GAME SYSTEM which were arrived at by authors, not mil-spec engineers. You say Dragons have nothing to do with a faulty Assault Rifle? I say both were iterated by the same set of authors... just like the rules to begin with. The authors wanted Ares to create an uber-assault rifle based on the mechanics of the rules rather than take advanced courses in mechanical engineering and gunsmithing. So what? What's the crime exactly? Where's the foul?

If you don't like the gun don't allow it. If you don't like dikote outlaw that too... If you don't like the rules change them or create new ones. Applying a different logical system to individual pieces of an inherently FICTIONAL system are futile exercises because they explicitly were not meant to be compared with reality.

Sorry to rant but that's the way I see it.

I'll have to agree on this one. Even the "unrealistic" elements ostensibly follow certain rules, as if they were introduced to our reality. Although he was rather blunt about it, why does the presence of dragons affect the physics that go into constructing a gun? Apples and oranges.

canvasback, the whole point of cyberpunk is that it might happen, that it could be real at some point in the future.

if you haven't seen anyone picking on decking, it's because you haven't been paying attention. every time the subject comes up, i light myself on fire and run around screaming. and i'm not the only one that does so.

you made my point for me, as well:

Silence, trollish mfb! The inclusion of people with good skin and pointy ears suspends all issues of logic and belief, and makes weapons more accurate by default!

The difference, mfb, is that you see the keyword as being future and I see the keyword as being fiction.

SR created an even niftier sub-sub-genre of science fiction. Cyberpunk-fantasy. And unless you believe there will be an Awakening in our world, this is not a genre that can wholly come true. Sorry.

Right, Canvas, but no one's wanting it to wholly become true. We're just saying we wouldn't mind if the parts loosely based on real-world physics or mechanics -- things unaffected completely by the inclusion of elves and dragons, etc -- would still work kind of like they do in the real world.

When they say a fantastic new chamber design is what gives a weapon amazing recoil compensation built-in, it raises eyebrows and questions. It's something that isn't being explained away by magic, but is instead being shrugged off and given a half-assed "chamber design" expalanation, that's BS given everything everyone knows about guns today. They try to explain it (sort of) using real-world mechanics ("chamber design, yeah, that's the ticket! That's a gun term, right?!"), but it doesn't add up. And after a while it gets really, really, old and lame to just go "it works 'cause it's the future, that's why!"

To be honest? I'd put a five-spot that if they had said something like "The Ares Alpha combatgun features an orichalcum-lined firing chamber given additional recoil compensation by the patented inclusion of a low-force Air Elemental in every rifle," Raygun and the other guys who know about guns IRL would have less of a problem with it. (NOTE - this isn't me talking for them, this is me making a bet.)

Because then at least the "there's dragons and elves and magic, oh my!" hand-waving would be on topic for explaining the recoil comp. As it is you're just stating the obvious when you say "it's not real, there's dragons," instead of saying anything that has anything to do with how a rifle works.

To get this somewhere back on topic:

I think the CC rules (crazy as they may be) give bullpup weapons -1 recoil, not -2.

As to this being ridiculous: Maybe it's just coincidence, but I've found through experience that weapons like the FAMAS is signifigantly more controllable in automatic than weapons like the M4 or the G36k.

More intriguing is the P90 which I find is (is this technically bullpup?) a lot more controllable than even the MP5.

Now I'm not bashing on any of these other weapons (they're nice too), but this man's experience has made him a bullpup fan for life. I have noticed that bigger dudes don't notice the difference as much as the slighter build guys though.

It's as dark as you want it to be. Explicit 'dark' stuff would probably attract to many complaints. Take a look at some of the very polite 'human trafficing' not-accusations currently going on between Japan and the Philippines. Nothing dark there, at least, until you read between the lines.

No, I don't think you do get it.

Rigging rules are as absurd as decking rules, and both of them have gotten plenty of rant time around here. Both claim to be based on real-world stuff (cars and computers), but neither works anything at all like their real-world equivalent. You can explain it away somewhat by just assuming that things are really, really, different with the basic mechanics of how an automobile handles or a computer works, when you're plugged right in, head-to-head, with it...but...well, no. Read up a little bit and you'll see that SR fans who know anything about cars will bitch about the rigging absurdities, and who know about computers will bitch about the decking rules.

In the same vein, how much compaining have you seen about unarmed/melee combat? Quite a bit, if you know how to read. It's stuff that claims to be based in reality (the martial arts rules, for instance), and just clearly isn't. It's contradictory to what real-world people know about those real-world martial arts, so it gets bitched about in a similar fashion.

Get over it. Gamers bitch. We aren't "picking on" anything, we're complaining because things some of us know work one way are presented as working another way entirely, and it's stuff that's supposed to be realistic. The basic mechanics of how an assault rifle fires, the traditions and techniques of a real-world martial art, how fast a car can possibly accelerate... these are things presented to us as being happening fifty years from right now, real life, and they consistently get cocked up. These are things that the inclusion of elves and dragons and (yes, even) magic would have no direct impact upon, and that's why your initial argument was so flawed (and that's why it was pointed out to you so brutally that it was flawed).

If you're gonna get this worked up over people explaining that "chamber design" has little or nothign to do with giving an assault rifle a significant, free, increase in recoil compensation, maybe you've just missed lots of threads, or something. 'Cause it's far from the most nitpicky, anal, thing I've seen gamers bitch about here.

Now having double cheeked my sources I find that indeed bulpup configuration dose ony give 1 point of recoil compensation.

The Aries alpha as described in fields of fire dose clearly show a bulpup configuration but also mentions “chamber-based recoil-reduction” and “it offers the equivalent of 2 points of recoil reduction”.

As to what is meant by “a specially designed chamber” that reduces recoil who can guess. I have been told such do exist to day but I wouldn’t know, if not there are 2 possible and not mutually exclusive possibilities. The writers knew just enough about firearms to know that a chamber was involved but not what it did, or in the next 45 years a new invention was created that modifies the firing chamber to provide recoil reduction.

I can point out several similarly unlike tech advances that occurred.

All electronics, including power supplies, the lasers that power computers and dreck cheep radios are immune to EMP.

Brain implants that carry negligible risk of infection.

Fusion power plants that run stably and efficiently

And in the past hundred years or so.
Automatic weapons
Heavier than air flight
The automobile
Faster than sound travel (and then commercial faster than sound travel)
Space flight (and them maned space flight)
An electrical device that will restart a human heart
Taking an organ from a dead human and putting it in a sick one making him well.
Transplants of pig heart valves into humans
Radio
Television
Computers
Computers affordable, small and simple enough for personal home (or portable) use.
The light bulb.
And no doubt many more.

And to top it off. Dose it really matter to the playing of the game.

As to why the matrix rules get less arguing time (and there is less of it) that is because there is a plot point that explains why computer tech is so different. I think t was the crash of 29.

Riging gets less because many of those that would argue accept that a more realistic system would be even more complicated and time consuming than the current one witch also gets complaints about its complexity.

With guns all you need to do is hash out a new set of damage codes and everything is better. But even the self appointed experts on weapons can not agree on what is realistic so we get bigger arguments

Edward

Yea! I think Edward gets it.

I think I've seen everything mentioned as being unrealistic as having been argued over here on the forums at least twice, if not more. I think the authors make it fairly clear in the BBB that the combat/skills resolution system are in fact abstract systems and not perfectly representative of the real world. The assertion that everything that is "real" in the SR universe should reflect actual reality is actually pretty lame, as very little attempt was made throughout the design of the game to represent reality from the start. Six sided dice are great and all but they are very clumsy in representing the probabilities faced in the real world. Much better to use percentile dice, and there are plenty of systems that relied on these to model their combat or skills tests. The Ares Alpha is 100% in accordance with the rules as presented by the authors thus far. It doesn't reflect current technology. So what? Maybe chamber design is the place weapons manufacturers of the future will gain an edge. It is after all, a fairly significant component of any firearm. Maybe the entire ignition system of weapons will change, maybe there's a future in sonic or energy weapons, maybe firearms will be entirely obsolete in sixty years. We don't know, and to hold a system designed for abstract resolution of game rules to the same standards a an engineer might have designing a weapon or vehicle is not simply ridiculous, it's ricockulous.

You're right.

From here on out, no one's allowed to talk about guns on here again. Ever.

Percentile dice are NOT more accurate for determining realistic skill probabilities. They are convenient because they allocate a high limit and a low limit, but unless you use some bizarre formula to calculate the contributions of skills, environment, and talent, you are merely trading one linear system (d20) for another. This was one of the main problem with the Palladium systems.

Abstract systems are used all the time to extrapolate real life situations (fantasy football is the example that pops into my head). I'm not claiming that SR's system is realistic, but it is an abstract analog that can represent an internally consistent mechanic couched in the trappings of realistic situations... a semantic difference, but an important one. You can do the same with other game mechanics (Guns do "4d6" damage and that's final!) but SR in general makes a better fit for firearms combat between humanoid creatures than d20 or Palladium. SR goes out of its way to maintain the lethality of combat, moreso than any other popular game on the market today.

It does this at a sacrifice of scaling (just look at the thread about Great Dragons)... you can't just keep building up your characters to epic levels until they can kill dragons with an uber knife. You hit a wall eventually, and for some folks, that's not their cup of tea. It does well when representing the scale of human experience, but fails when extrapolating to the realm of heroes. Perhaps this lack of scaleability is the reason people play SR, because it brings the heroes and myths down to humanity, rather than vice versa.

The main thing is that gamers LIKE to discuss games. While to some people it may seem like a pointless argument, to deny the discussion because "it's just a game" is simply a callous disregard for the dynamic of the social situation. You fail the "Etiquette" test, in other words. It's like walking into an Ethics Conference at a hospital and saying "This is all pointless... this is all just theoretical policy!" That's not what the discussion forum is about. It's here so that gamers can talk about games, not so that people can shove "It's just a game" down our throats.

Well hahnsoo you might have a point, or you might not. But when someone refers to my comments about an abstract game system for a fantasy setting as assinine, well, that just tears it for me. The original question was whether or not the AR in question could have more recoil mods mounted on it. By the rules the answer was to a degree, yes.

Technically, the debate was over if the Ares Alpha was a realistic gun was itself slightly off topic. The whole argument strikes me as being the same as an Ancient Greek and an Ancient Hindu meeting in Babylon and arguing over the concept of zero. They're both arguing over the existence of nothing. :

I thought this thread would go 5 posts or so, 10 max. Boy was I wrong.

Bullpup design looks like it would grant recoil reduction based on simple physics. The force of the recoil is placed closer to or maybe even behind the fulcrum.

Ordinary rifle: is braced at shoulder, then hand, then recoil source, then other hand, then recoil source. So it generates more torque forces aka recoil.

Bullpup design rifle: is braced at shoulder, then recoil source, then hand, (then maybe a recoil source), then other hand, then recoil source. I say maybe because I don't think so but others are free to disagree. Generates less torque, aka recoil, because it is closer to fulcrums, aka as bracing points.

Total Force contributing to recoil is the same in each case.

I used the FAMAS almost exclusively for 5 years in the Legion. Afterwards (the other assignment), I got to use whatever I wanted for the next 4 years.

The bullpups are usually shorter overall, and it feels like you can bring more of the weight in close to your body. There isn't much difference in semi-auto, but when you start firing in 3-bursts (though not available on all rifles), and full auto, the difference is signifigant. The bullpups to me are a lot easier to "muscle" down on.

Actually, in FA, the high rate of the FAMAS and it's bullpup design work to it's advantage when compared to other FA rifles.

Doesn't make his point any less valid.

Or make that clever retort worth an entire post. If you disagree with what he says, argue against it. Don't just whine about him tossing the word "fucking" in to make a point.

i don't see anybody asking anybody else to tip anything. i do see a few requests from the Put Up Or Shut Up Department. people have made counterpoints that you haven't answered, CanvasBack. either put up, by replying with something germane to those counterpoints (you can even use the word 'fuck' if you really want to), or shut up.

I don't know. I wouldn't bet on there NOT being a Monopoly forum out there somewhere. It is the most successful modern board game of all time after all... And they have World Championshicp tournaments for it as well.
hahnsoo is right in as much as my initial comment was flip and jovial and that it was ill received. It's really not in my nature to take a game seriously. I guess that I should remember that some people take everything they do serioulsy. Just to use hansoo's dice retort example, I saw his point but I don't think that a 16 2/3 percentage bump is really justifed between shooting a pistol at an NPC at 6 meters as opposed to 4 meters if reality is what is being modelled or represented. It does make sense in a GAME where arbitrary boundaries do have to be set sometimes. I didn't get all shitty with him about it though... I did take umbrage at having my ideas mocked and it was inappropriate to railroad a thread like this. So if you care about any of this or have questions, message me. If you don't, don't. For my part, I'll be more alert about avoiding "Technical" discussions of any sort.

Personally, I don't think it was your 'ideas' that were mocked, as much as it was your assertation that the inclusion of fantasy elements in Shadowrun meant that other factors (like tech and physics) should be glossed over as unimportant.

As to the topic at hand, I have, in the past, upped the Damage Code of Light pistols to 6M (appears to be somewhat common), while leaving everything else as is. This seemed to work just fine in my games. Sill don't have many characters with light pistols though.

In a world where there is Tetris and Minesweeper fanfiction, a monopoly forum is not too farfetched.

CanvasBack, if you really want fireworks, try bringing in a discussion on Called Shots to the head, and how if this game was realistic, you should be able to do them.

And using that example, it shows that SR is more to do with the rules than it is to do with the reality. Sure, it's based on reality, but then whenever has that mattered? Personally, I like the usual responses that the authors give bitching fanboys (you know who you are ): "If you had been writing these books, how would you have done it?"

Really, there is no way of changing the fact that there are some pretty weird rules out there. And for the most part, people are so entrenched in their own opinions, that there is no way that a simple discussion/argument/flame-war is going to move them.

But it's still cool to discuss it. We're all entitled to our own opinions. What disappoints me, though, is that in discussing these, in the greater scheme of things, almost meaningless abstracts, infinitesimal specs on infinitesimal specs, you people can't keep it civil. Discussing meaningless shit is one thing, but actually insulting each other over it is quite another.

Just my .02