Quote: DigitalMage

See, I don't even think that these examples could be taken for granted. Think about the Siberian Tiger or even an Elk. Huge animals that are near silent when they run and the tiger of course is actually designed for hiding and elk blend in pretty well. Of course, this is in their natural habitat. It just depends on the situation, if the troll is in an area with little cover he's probably screwed, of course a human in an area with little cover is likely just as screwed. If a facility has large cargo containers lying about, they probably help the troll to the extent of getting full use out of the stealth but would a smaller race necessarily get bonuses to hide in such an environment. I don't think so because not in line of sight, is simply not in line of sight. Anyway, good answers so far keep them coming. Feel free to explain alternate solutions.

Yeah, but the human can just use the troll for cover

--- Dashifen ---

Well of cause you would. the gnome can fit in a backpack (Without the extra pouches) so i would give a gnome (or any small metahuman) some type of bonus. if the situation warrents it.

It's simple a troll would need a dumpster to hide behind, a human, ork elf could get away with a trash can type bin. where as the gnome could get away with 1 of the 2 bags thats in the trash can.

Situations where size and weight matter?

For instance, weight would matter when crossing a noisy floor of some sort (tuned floorboards), traversing tricky footing (such as a gravelly slope), or the like. Size would matter when there was very little natural cover (say the only feature for miles on an open plain is sparse 3' bushes, that'd penalize a troll), hiding places are too small, or the troll simply stands out above the group he is trying to blend in with.

Heh, wouldn't tuned floorboards, tricky footing, or anything of that nature really count against just about anybody walking across them? In these situations, I think it is better to give potential perceivers a bonus rather than penalizing the troll-player's roll, the idea being, the character is in control of what he/she can control but the physical environment as constructed by the GM can make detecting intruders easier. In that sense, any situational disadvantage for the troll results in a bonus to what a guard/sentry can control, perception and awareness. From a game mechanics point of view, for me it comes down to the fact that stealth is an open opposed roll, so modifying the player's roll as with TN mods in combat doesn't really do the situation justice. It penalizes those with low skill levels too much and really doesn't penalize the higher skilled folks enough since they have a better chance of exploding dice by rolling more. Giving the perceiver the bonus eliminates that disparity. A low stealth troll is still at a disadvantage but a poor roll won't automatically be disastrous while virtual troll ninjas will have to wonder if they can overcome being the size of a VW Bug. So, in the floorboard situation if a dwarf/elf/human effed up and walked across these and gave a +1 mod to a guard's perception test, the troll might get +2?


I have to admit though, the blending into a crowd situation is really where the troll falls down. There are certain areas where trolls congregate but downtown just isn't one of them. The troll population is small to begin with and heavily discriminated against. I could see a GM making a spot ruling in certain areas that no, a troll character simply cannot fade into the crowd in certain, if not most, contexts.

The disparity is there, no matter who you give the bonus/penalty to. It's not going to change the outcome one bit. If you give the troll a -2 to his rolls, then a roll of 6 becomes a 4. If you give the bonus to the perceiver, then they still only need a 4 to succeed in the roll. No matter where you apply it, the effects are exactly the same.

Exactly, and gnomes might take no penalty at all. There would be some instances (cheap flooring, etc) where humans and lighter wouldn't have a problem, but it might creak/crunch alarmingly under the feet of a troll.

As TheScamp said, it doesn't matter much whether it's a penalty or a bonus for the foe since it's an open ended test in the first place. What's the difference between needing to roll TN (10-2) and TN 10 with a +2 to your roll?

Well, first off an open roll only uses your best die roll and when it's being actively opposed not even the GM knows the final TN to begin with. Now imagine this situation, a troll-ganger who didn't start play with stealth has been building it up over the course of a couple of runs. He only has Stealth 3 at a critical point he needs to use it. The GM assigns a penalty of 2 to his roll for his trollness. Now say he rolls his check and it's all ones and twos. He now has no result above zero. At least with the twos he hasn't botched (since it takes all natural 1s for the rule of one to come into play) but now even a below average sentry must botch not to be tipped off. Of course, some folks house rule that the troll in my example has indeed botched since none of his dice are above a one with the mod. In a game like that, there is even less incentive to take low skills or acquire new ones than there normally is, you simply work with what you started at chargen. The potential results of botching stealth are very bad to say the least.

If you give the bonus to the perceiver, he could still botch even though he would seemingly automatically achieve successes even with all 1s but in most situations he has a better chance of getting all successes, even if the troll had gotten a 4 in the mix the guard simply needs to not roll ones. Sentries are counting successes, treating the stealth-infiltrators highest roll as the TN. One success won't tell them what exactly is going on but 3 or 4 will. A high stealth character (5+), won't automatically roll a 6 on their open test (just ask Axis and Allies players about the tech roll), but they have a better chance of having their dice explode since they are rolling more of them and that's their due for having high skill. If any player achieves a 6, or multiple 6s then the penalty, no matter how you apply it, isn't going to do much in the end since since the player essentially gained a point going from 6 to 7. It's a subtle point, that really only comes into play on the lower end of the dice rolling spectrum and admittedly won't come up much, but the notion that the player controls what he controls (skill rating, camo mods, etc...) to achieve bonuses and what he hasn't controlled works against him by giving bonuses to the people trying to detect him sits better with me. Maybe because it breaks down the math between the GM and the player.