Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: More sneaky sneaky
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
fistandantilus4.0
Have a player that put together one dandy of a suit.

Ruthenium of course, w/ 12 cameras. As already discussed, limited to modifier to a +8

Thermal dampening. Goes up to +8 agaisnt thermographic and sensors. Of course, it's at +8.

Ultrasound emmiter/detector 10

some back up batteries.

Of course, he's a silent way adept.
Traceless walk:+4 stealth

There are the usuals of course to spot him. Shadows, no foot prints though, flour/paint/whatever splattered on the suit.

Basically, question is, does this all work. Thermal on the inside of the suit, Ruthenium on the ouside. Ultrasound emitters to fool ultra sound. About the only thing that sees him is astral.

Any reason this shouldn't work? Limits to armor modification? getting really hot in the suit? Thankfully his batteries run down eventually!
hahnsoo
The Ultrasound emitter/detector simply doesn't work for the purposes of not being seen. You can jam and disrupt ultrasound, but this is the brute force method and will ruin your stealth in the face of ultrasound sensors; they will know something is there, just not exactly what or who due to the profile disruption of the emitter.

Thermal dampening is limited up to the maximum ballistic/impact rating of the suit of armor. If it's just clothing, then you get a maximum of two points of "armor" options, per Cannon Companion page 52. I suppose you can get a ruthenium ghillie suit or poncho to overlay your thermal dampened armor, but you would be suffering the usual armor stacking penalties.
fistandantilus4.0
hiw quickness is 8, and he made the suit from sec armor (I think light though, so that's a few points off). At least he doesn't have to worry about being seen in sec armor though!

I wasn't aware that Ultrasound emitters were basically the equivelant of a maglock key (as in frying the lock pretty well).

Needless to say it's a higher karma game, and it cost him an absolute ton of nuyen.

So for the ultrasound, what does it show? static?
If that's the case, why even bother? Why make something to bypass an alarm, only to have it completely obvious? or is that jsut the case with something like an U.S. camera?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 13 2005, 05:37 AM)
I wasn't aware that Ultrasound emitters were basically the equivelant of a maglock key (as in frying the lock pretty well).

Needless to say it's a higher karma game, and it cost him an absolute ton of nuyen.

So for the ultrasound, what does it show? static?
If that's the case, why even bother? Why make something to bypass an alarm, only to have it completely obvious? or is that jsut the case with something like an U.S. camera?

They don't "fry the lock", per se. They're just not an effective solution to bypass Ultrasound for the purposes of sneaking around. If you want to prevent folks from using Ultrasound to get better TN modifiers for ranged attacks, it's a good idea. IMHO, I think the camera would see a point of disrupted static, perhaps a "reflection" area rather than the shadow that is supposed to be there.

Also, remember that according to the rules, thermographic, vehicular sensors, and ultrasound only halve the modifier for visual perception for ruthenium polymers, which means you'd really only need 6 points of Thermal dampening to get that +12 (the base +12 halved equals +6).
fistandantilus4.0
Too bad, I was hoping to know off a few points. THanks for the clarification though.

My understanding of the U.S. emitters is that it makes the sensor see nothing

pg. 293 SR3

"This device detects and analyzes the ultrasonic field produced by certain motion sensors.It can also attempt to spoof the sensor into thinking that nothing is moving through it's field."

Goes on to give the rules for the opposed rolls and the movement rate.

Now is that basically saying that it only really works on motion sensors, but to say ultrasound goggles, the effect would be obvious, like a large static field?

So really the only effective defense against ultrasound goggles would be the silence spell (as discussed).

of course that only reduces the target numbers from sight by half (+4) in this case. STill makes dodging pretty easy.

Were there ever any clear answers on spotting someone with ruthenium in combat? I always saw it more like the predator or Grey fox in MGS. You could see them, but it was hard to pin down. Say a +4? Much like the ultrasound only having a set rate of movement depending on how strong the "spoof" is.
hahnsoo
From the text, it looks like it works against Ultrasound motion sensors specifically and even then, only if you are moving very slowly. This is confirmed in SOTA:2063 as well (which shows how to beat them without using an Ultrasound emiter/detector). The detector will also detect if someone is using an ultrasound sight, but I don't think the device works against ultrasound sight systems. On an interesting note, SOTA:2063 makes mention of thermal motion sensors, but I don't see any rules for them anywhere.

As far as ruthenium in combat, a lot of groups do this in different ways. Some force the +8 Blind Fire mod even when the sneak is detected, some give the +2 modifier for having camouflage vs. ranged attacks, some don't apply any visual mods at all if the sneak is detected. Others go by the modifiers shown in the Camo spell (+4 vs. ranged attacks). It's up to you, really, unless someone can post where it says the exact TN visibility modifier for a ruthenium polymer suit.
Kagetenshi
There is no such effect. According to all of the text, an ultrasound emitter will spoof ultrasound perfectly with the proper roll.

Strictly speaking, ruthenium provides mods only to the Perception test. While the camo bonus for someone moving slowly enough would be fair, by canon someone who has been spotted has no additional mod against them.

~J
Edward
I would say that a US emitter works differently on motion detectors and ultrasound imaging systems.

It works against motion detectors as described in its section.

Against imaging system it has the same effect as a white noise generator is described as doing in the section on ultrasound vision.

Edward
hobgoblin
a US motion detector works by scaning a area over and over, if a element of the echo seems to move more then x amount in a given time unit then the alarm goes of. the trick here is that its a dumb device, if you can return the same signal that it sends out then it see nothing at all and the alarm does not go of.

but someone useing a US sight or googles will start to wonder whats wrong when he gets a flat image all of a sudden. he may relate it to faulty equipment but he may allso theorize that there is someone out there thats jamming his equipment. this is even more likely if he have a backup device and it to shows the same problem. two devices failing at the same time? can happen but very unlikely.
Endgame50
I think thermal dampening becomes ineffective if you wear the armor too long. As long as he puts it on just before he sneaks, it's fine, but if he's wearing it all day, the body heat is going to warm it up.

Also, magicians / physads with astral perception can see through it, but it's not a device that can be used overly much without straining credibility.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
hiw quickness is 8, and he made the suit from sec armor (I think light though, so that's a few points off). At least he doesn't have to worry about being seen in sec armor though!

Jesus, and he managed to hit the 24 Availability check to find something like that? Lucky bastard.
Edward
I managed a version once that was starting character available and gave +8 to perception checks by any meta human.

8 sensor ruthenium.
Thermal dampening 4
Ultrasound emitter detector 4

If you have only normal or lowlight vision it is ruthenium +8
If you also have thermographic its ½ ruthenium and thermal 8/2+4=8
If you also have ultrasound halve penalties and ad white noise rating 8/2+4=8

Of cause with the last you know your being jammed.

Edward
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Jesus, and he managed to hit the 24 Availability check to find something like that? Lucky bastard.

If you throw enough money at anything, then it becomes available. What is it, 2 days and plus 0.1 Street index for every point of Availability you shave off?
The Grifter
A Silent way Adept in fraggin' security armor. What's next?
toturi
Rigger in his Stealth Tank.
Edward
QUOTE (toturi)
Rigger in his Stealth Tank.

You don’t want to get me started building a stealth tank, you wouldn’t like it.

Edward
Rieal82
QUOTE (Edward)
QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 14 2005, 09:46 AM)
Rigger in his Stealth Tank.

You don’t want to get me started building a stealth tank, you wouldn’t like it.

Edward

biggrin.gif SHOW ME THE TANK!!
toturi
Wouldn't be any worse that the Stealth Submarine Aircraft Carrier with its own Free Great Form Spirit.
Edward
I don’t hav time to do a full write up but hear is how it goes

Start by building a RV that runes of an electric fuel cell
Give it max starting CF, load, signature improvement and a few items to make it a consumer RV any character could buy
Improved suspension 2
Of road suspension 1
Dual purpose run flat tires
Rollbars
Spotlights


Then customise it (payingthe costs for after market customisations) with
Advanced drone pilot 3
Auto soft interpretation
Remote control interface
Rigger adoption
Rigger encryption 6
Improved security 6
Ruthenium paint job with max sensors
Sensors 5
ECM 4
ED 3
22 points of concealed vehicle armour
Drive by wire 2
And a popup small turret.

The biggest weapon you can put in it as a starting character is a LMG but that can latter be upgraded to a HMG, missile launcher or vindicator minigun during the game.

That is the best I can do limiting it to availability 8 and rigger 3 revised.

The price tag is somewhere in the order of 600k-700k.

You did ask.

Edward
Edward
if we are including magic I can have a shaman on its crew summon a force 6 city spirit to use its concealment power on the vehicle.

Edward
hobgoblin
and that, for some reason, makes all those neat tech gizmos useless wink.gif
hmm, i wonder if a great from sea spirit could be able to hide a carrier task force...
BitBasher
QUOTE
Ruthenium paint job with max sensors
On an RV? do you have any clue how much that costs? Likely as much as the whole cost of the car you just estimated... and it cant move more than a few meters per turn or it's useless.

Go spirit.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Edward)
I managed a version once that was starting character available and gave +8 to perception checks by any meta human.

8 sensor ruthenium.
Thermal dampening 4
Ultrasound emitter detector 4

If you have only normal or lowlight vision it is ruthenium +8
If you also have thermographic its ½ ruthenium and thermal 8/2+4=8
If you also have ultrasound halve penalties and ad white noise rating 8/2+4=8

Of cause with the last you know your being jammed.

Edward

The ultrasound emitter detector doesn't help you against ultrasound vision. Using it to try to avoid being detected "requires an Opposed Test between the motion sensor's Device Rating and the emitter's Device Rating." SR3 293. Ultrasound vision is not a motion sensor, and thusly, its complete GM fiat for it to work. At best, I'd give the ultrasound user a glare effect, as the person with the emitter is putting off more echo than normal.
Edward
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 13 2005, 11:16 AM)
I managed a version once that was starting character available and gave +8 to perception checks by any meta human.

8 sensor ruthenium.
Thermal dampening 4
Ultrasound emitter detector 4

If you have only normal or lowlight vision it is ruthenium +8
If you also have thermographic its ½ ruthenium and thermal 8/2+4=8
If you also have ultrasound halve penalties and ad white noise rating 8/2+4=8

Of cause with the last you know your being jammed.

Edward

The ultrasound emitter detector doesn't help you against ultrasound vision. Using it to try to avoid being detected "requires an Opposed Test between the motion sensor's Device Rating and the emitter's Device Rating." SR3 293. Ultrasound vision is not a motion sensor, and thusly, its complete GM fiat for it to work. At best, I'd give the ultrasound user a glare effect, as the person with the emitter is putting off more echo than normal.

I had assumed that the ultrasound detector emitter would have an effect just like a white noise generator. If you disagree I will ad a white noise generator operating in the ultrasound range. Wired up to activate when the ultrasound detector detects somebody using ultrasound vision.

Edward
Tarantula
The reason I say it wouldn't act as a white noise generator, is it is only producing ultra-sound, no others. Seeing as things that produce lots of light, or lots of heat are glare for the respective vision modes, something producing lots of ultrasound also serves to glare ultrasound users.
Edward
QUOTE (Tarantula)
The reason I say it wouldn't act as a white noise generator, is it is only producing ultra-sound, no others. Seeing as things that produce lots of light, or lots of heat are glare for the respective vision modes, something producing lots of ultrasound also serves to glare ultrasound users.

It is a glare style penalty but it is not the flat penalty glare is and flare comp will not help.

Ultrasound vision systems only listen to ultrasound, logically you can make as much noise as you want in the normal audible range and it wont be noticed by ultrasound imaging systems. It is the ultrasound component of a white noise generator that causes the problems to ultrasound vision. Would not a system that emits the same ultrasound without the audible frequencies have the same effect.

Edward
Tarantula
No, because the white noise generator is making noise to prevent the recording by microphones. Not making a constant thrum of ultrasound.

Edit: Actually, re-reading your posts, seems to say there is a rule about ultrasound penalties under white noise generators? I'll need to go look at that when I have the chance.
Edward
Why would frequencies designed to stop recording of audible sound have a great effect on the receiving of ultrasound.

Remember that the ultrasound detector/emitter is not a constant level, it is designed specifically to block ultrasound receivers. A constant level would be relatively easy to filter out. (I reverence ECM and ECCM systems, hot mike jamming (a constant level) is very low raring for electronic warfair)

Edward
mmu1
QUOTE (Edward)
I had assumed that the ultrasound detector emitter would have an effect just like a white noise generator. If you disagree I will ad a white noise generator operating in the ultrasound range. Wired up to activate when the ultrasound detector detects somebody using ultrasound vision.

That's not stealthy at all, though. It might make the other guy unable to see you, but only in the same way shining a flashlight into someone's eyes at night would - yeah, they can't see anything except the "noise" but it's pretty damn obvious that someone is there.
Demosthenes
And apart from that, Ruthie-boy still casts a shadow...
Tarantula
It doesn't block ultrasound. The way the receiver detector works is this.

The motion sensor watches the echo of its ultrasound. If the echo deviates by X%, it triggers. The emitter starts picking up on the ultrasound emissions from the motion sensor, and starts calculating where it is, what the persons echo would look like, and what the echo would look like without the person.

When the motion sensors ultrasound hits the person, the detector waits the milliseconds until the sound should have hit the wall behind the person, and then sends out a weaker ultrasound pulse back, made to look like the echo from the wall. Ghosting out the person.

CODE
() = ultrasound from sensor   [] = ultrasound from emitter
Time         Motion Sensor                         Person                  Wall
1            o )                                   x                       |
2            o           )                         x                       |
3            o                           )         x                       |
4            o                                    )x                       |
5            o                                    (x                       |
6            o                           (         x                       |
7            o                  (                  x                       |
8            o        (                            x                       |
9            o(                                    x                       |
0            o                                     x                       |
      ALERT!

With the emitter, its more something like...

Time         Motion Sensor                         Person                  Wall
1            o )                                   x                       |
2            o                  )                  x                       |
3            o                           )         x                       |
4            o                                    )x]                      |
5            o                                    (x       ]               |
6            o                           (         x                      ]|
7            o                  (                  x                      [|
8            o        (                            x               [       |
9 warning    o(                                    x        [              |
0            o                              [      x[                      |
1            o                  [                  x                       |
2            o         [                           x                       |
3            o[                                    x                       |
  all clear


Of course, this is timing is mili/nano/some other very tiny part of a second, the time is just a relative thing, as the motion sensor would be cosntantly pumping out waves, the emitter/detector would then be constantly returning them, this is a single wave from each.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Demosthenes)
And apart from that, Ruthie-boy still casts a shadow...

No, no he doesn't.

I shine a light on him from this side. The other side would reproduce that same light, and prevent a shadow from being shown.

Hrmm, would a spotlight overload the ruth's ability to display that bright? Or flashpacks, etc?
Demosthenes
Well, the thing with shadows and ruthenium is that ruthenium polymers are used to display images, not to generate light, iirc.

Given that ruthenium cannot compensate for movement speeds greater than a couple of metres per turn, then any kind of rapid transition like flashlights, fast-moving traffic, large crowds, flickering screens, and such things, could well cause it serious problems.

I would think that any light striking the ruthenium will still be reflected and diffused: it's not some magical substance that absorbs light. And given that ruthenium is only millimetres thick and consumes fairly small amounts of power, there have to be limits to its ability to generate light - otherwise you'd just stick a coating of ruthenium on the iris of your cybereye and hook up some software for the "Brightlight" flashpak option for your eyelights...

YMMV, and I don't have the rules handy to look up ruthenium's actual, canon limitations. I'm just going with what seems to make sense.
Edward
I would expect a moderately bright torch to overload the suits ability to reproduce the light. The system is not perfect. If you want perfect cast invisibility, stealth and have a force 9 city spirit following you around with the concealment power.

Edward
mmu1
QUOTE (Demosthenes)
Well, the thing with shadows and ruthenium is that ruthenium polymers are used to display images, not to generate light, iirc.

Unless Ruthenium can somehow perfectly mimic the color and texture of any object physically - which seems rather unlikely, based on the description - then the way it has to work is by displaying an image, which means it emits light by default.

That, and the fact that any decent camouflage suit of this kind actually has to be able to generate light for another reason - at night, people are actually pretty good at picking out objects that are darker than the background (this usually comes up when someone's shilouette is visible against the sky), so there are times when you make something less visible by having it emit light. (the USAF successfully managed to make planes flying at altitude "disappear" by equipping them with large numbers of small lightbulbs and matching the intensity of their light output to the ambient illumination - but eventually decided it was too much trouble for too little gain)
Tarantula
I'm amazed no one yelled at me for my hackish display of the emitters working.

As far as the ruth goes, yeah, I was just realizing, would flashpacks burn out the display? Cause replacement? Superflashes? Etc. Or would just white spot appear on their back briefly, then go away. If I was looking through a ruthenium blanket at someone who flashed a flashpak, do I get glare? Or do I just see a flashpak go off the same as watching a recording of one. How bright can ruthenium get? I'd go with the second one, and rule that it can't reproduce it enough to cause glare, and perhaps bright light sources (searchlights and flashpaks, exclusively) could perhaps half the ruthenium bonus, due to not being able to reproduce the effect well.
Demosthenes
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Demosthenes @ Mar 15 2005, 10:47 AM)
Well, the thing with shadows and ruthenium is that ruthenium polymers are used to display images, not to generate light, iirc.

Unless Ruthenium can somehow perfectly mimic the color and texture of any object physically - which seems rather unlikely, based on the description - then the way it has to work is by displaying an image, which means it emits light by default.

That, and the fact that any decent camouflage suit of this kind actually has to be able to generate light for another reason - at night, people are actually pretty good at picking out objects that are darker than the background (this usually comes up when someone's shilouette is visible against the sky), so there are times when you make something less visible by having it emit light. (the USAF successfully managed to make planes flying at altitude "disappear" by equipping them with large numbers of small lightbulbs and matching the intensity of their light output to the ambient illumination - but eventually decided it was too much trouble for too little gain)

Sorry, I was oversimplifying.
What I meant was that it seemed implausible to me that Ruthenium would be used to generate a considerable amount of light.
[ Spoiler ]

I also question if a flat, deforming, two dimensional display would be able to adequately disguise the deformation and reflection of incident light upon it...
But I'm not going to even try to get into that discussion, because my physics is spotty at best. Suffice to say that I think that bright lights, complex backgrounds, and so on will all reduce the effect of Ruthenium considerably - it isn't Invisibility. As always, YMMV.
Dog
Maybe I'm missing something here. When using those ruthenium suits, you don't WEAR the camera, do you? Don't you have to set up the cameras in the area that you'll be sneaking through to look at the suit from different angles? That's how I read it and it really limits the usefulness of the stuff. Of course, that's just if you want that adaptive camouflage effect, if you just want some different camo patterns, you don't need the cameras.
How would a camera attached to the suit have an accurate image of what someone in the distance sees when they look in that direction? Anybody else see it this way? (pun intended)
Tarantula
Supposedly, the sensors are strategically placed around the suit looking out. What they see, is the light that would've passed through the suit had it not been in the way. The opposite end of the suit then displays this image, making it as if the suit was not there.

CODE

Time            suit           light = [] original light path, () = projected light
1                   o             [*
2                   o       [      *
3                   o[             *
4                  (o]             *
5           (       o       ]      *
6     (             o            ] *
7 (                 o              *


This happens on both sides, so this effectively hides the user from viewing on the left side. Another sensor placed on the left side, would hide the suit when viewed from the right. Etc.
Dog
Okay I concede, but it still sounds complicated enough that fisty can use my interpretation (misinterpretation?) to restrict his player's suit if he wants.

Or how about: the suit's so complicated it takes 20 minutes and an assistant to don or remove. Got that bladder control bioware?
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Dog @ Mar 16 2005, 09:28 PM)
Maybe I'm missing something here.  When using those ruthenium suits, you don't WEAR the camera, do you?  Don't you have to set up the cameras in the area that you'll be sneaking through to look at the suit from different angles?  That's how I read it and it really limits the usefulness of the stuff.  Of course, that's just if you want that adaptive camouflage effect, if you just want some different camo patterns, you don't need the cameras.
How would a camera attached to the suit have an accurate image of what someone in the distance sees when they look in that direction?  Anybody else see it this way? (pun intended)

Nope, you wear the cameras (sensors). The more sensors the suit has, the better a job it does at mimicing the surronding area. That's why the suit has to have at least four sensors, to cover the four arcs around a figure. The distance of the obeserver really doesn't have anything to do with it.

And once again, there is always the ultimate trump to invisibility: a closed door with a bunch of guards, with guns, on the other side.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 13 2005, 10:48 AM)
Jesus, and he managed to hit the 24 Availability check to find something like that? Lucky bastard.

If you throw enough money at anything, then it becomes available. What is it, 2 days and plus 0.1 Street index for every point of Availability you shave off?

If I remember correctly, he's total price was around half a mill. It's the only thing he's ever really needed to buy anyways, so he just saved up (a LONG time).

Dog: Fisty?
Critias
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
And once again, there is always the ultimate trump to invisibility: a closed door with a bunch of guards, with guns, on the other side.

That's what the Demolitions skill and some C-6 (or is it C-12 in SR? I always forget) is for. Blow the door right, follow up with a chunky-salsa-inducing grenade or two, and they've got a lot more to worry about than spotting the invisible guy.

Go ahead, NPC's. Bunch up and all watch one doorway. It makes the job that much more satisfying. wink.gif
Sandoval Smith
So much for the benefits of being invisible.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Endgame50)
I think thermal dampening becomes ineffective if you wear the armor too long. As long as he puts it on just before he sneaks, it's fine, but if he's wearing it all day, the body heat is going to warm it up.

Also, magicians / physads with astral perception can see through it, but it's not a device that can be used overly much without straining credibility.

The thermal masking in CC has no actual rules for it overheating. THe (mole suit I think it's called) in I believe 2064 does state that it gets too hot eventually.
Of course, if he's wearing it all day, the batteries die on the ruthenium anyways. Then he's running around in some rather serious armor. Not too sneaky.
I watch the clock pretty close on him.

And yeah, he dreads security mages. As well he should.
Critias
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
So much for the benefits of being invisible.

Hey, they were talkin' invisible. No one said quiet. wink.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Umm.. we were actually talking sneaky, but that's ok.

That's kind of how my groups runs go anyway.

Ya' know how Argent's group is called the Wrecking Crew?

Well... There's is called Plan B.

Plan B stands for Plan Boom
Critias
I was making a joke.

Seriously, though, there comes a time when stealth just ain't gonna cut it any more. Sneaking is a means to an end, not an end unto itself. If you find yourself on the other side of a door, with that room full of security guards with weapons aimed at it...? You can't just go, "Uhh, well, maybe if I open and close the door real fast they won't see me," can you? If it's a room you've got to get through or into, well, time to bite the bullet. You say thanks to your Stealth skill for gettin' you that far, and grab the bull by the horns, y'know?

Works for me, and my characters.
Dog
I'm starting to think that if he really put all this effort into his suit, you could let him use it (in moderation, of course). The thing then would be for you to make sure that he has enough challenges that don't involve sneaking to keep the game interesting for him. Say he's gotta sneak into a corp facility, but then he's gotta convince the scientist inside to leave with him, and then sneak that poor schlub out. The challenges could be what he's gotta face -alone- since no one else can sneak into the places he does.

My apologies, fistandantilus3.0. It takes me about 4 tries to type your full name correctly. smile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012