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Patrick Goodman
mfb: Not sure, but I am pushing for more use of trode rigs. I'm just playtesting this one, though, and not writing for it (at least not much), so I can't make any promises.

Garland: A little, as I understand it. I'm pushing for certain changes here, too; those who know me know what I'm pushing for.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Aristotle)
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Mar 15 2005, 06:23 PM)
Whatcha wanna know?

Got an open seat at your table? biggrin.gif
It'd be a heck of a commute.

It would be a helluva commute, but yes, you'd be welcome. Of course, I've got to get my table back in operation here PDQ....
Kai
w00t wireless! love.gif

Yeah, that was it, no stunning and insightful commentary other than one should not forget to change's one's very old accounts before deleting said accounts email address. Ah well, I like me better this way anyways. Lost some post count and reputation, but the reputation was entirely unfounded, I assure you ;7
TheQuestionMan
ala Ghost in a Shell 2: Innocence - Brain Hacking cyber.gif

Yikes eek.gif

QM
paul_HArkonen
to be perfectly Honest I love the idea.

Each style of characters has a world where they are in control, and they overlap. Sams control the meat world and anything living in it. Mages control the astral plane that is an overlay on the meat world, while Techno whatever you want to call thems rule over the machine overlays in that world.

My main complaint with decking, (and the reason I have little experiance in it) is that it was so seperate from the rest of the game, yes you could do "overwatch" but only in your own seperate distinct reality of the system, now it should be streamlined.

and to our resident snitch (I'm just kiddin here, don't say anything you aren't supposed to say) I do have a question.

Do deckers really become as mobile as the promo suggests or is it just hype with not enough changes to actually have the mobile decker happen?
Wireknight
Ah, I can taste the delicious post-cyberpunk flavor in the air. Now, if only we could start slowly integrating technology and magic in some pioneering fashion, Shadowrun could really evolve in an awesome direction that no other game universe is really equipped to go. I hope the new Matrix-augmented reality is a comparable technological analog to the astral plane, sort of an purely technological, equally important, antithesis of the reality of pure magical energies that is overlaid and intertwined with the base mundane reality.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
Garland: A little, as I understand it. I'm pushing for certain changes here, too; those who know me know what I'm pushing for.

And some of us really don't want to see those changes.
Aristotle
QUOTE (paul_HArkonen)
Do deckers really become as mobile as the promo suggests or is it just hype with not enough changes to actually have the mobile decker happen?

Great question, and it matches the original intent of the thread! I second this one. Any information on how mobile the new matrix makes deckers/hackers or how much easier it may or may not be to run/play them would be appreciated. I know you can't give us the whole loaf of bread, but I'll take crumbs.
krishcane
Patrick... are otaku annihilated? Converted into something else? Do they lose their edge?

My wife has an otaku character that she's been playing almost 10 years... sure would be a shame to be like, "Whoops! The Matrix is gone, and your protocols are useless on the 2.0 version!"

--K
Pistons
QUOTE (Aristotle)
I second this one. Any information on how mobile the new matrix makes deckers/hackers or how much easier it may or may not be to run/play them would be appreciated. I know you can't give us the whole loaf of bread, but I'll take crumbs.

To quote from the announcement: "An all-new level of wireless “augmented reality” overlays the real world, unleashing hackers to be mobile digital wizards."

Think: wireless.
Aristotle
QUOTE (Pistons)
Think: wireless.

heh... okay, I wanted bigger crumbs. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
given the popularity of otaku, i doubt that will happen. though i suspect they may be rebalanced, in SR4--less "pasty weakling kid with massive brain powers" and more "normal people with strange, less-massive brain powers".
Mr. Man
Don't otaku lose their abilities after a certain age anyway? Maybe that was one reason for the five year jump...

I've got a couple of questions for our deep throat contact:

Are falling rules in the base book?

Do flux (or equivalent) rules take barrier ratings (or equivalent) into account?

What kind of page count are we looking at for the new BBB?

Pistons
Can't get much bigger than that. Consider this: cellphones are wireless. PDAs are wireless. Laptops with wireless broadband. That's what we have now. Take that 65 years in the future.
moosegod
If this goes all "Ghost in the Shell", I'm going all "Postal."
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (mfb)
given the popularity of otaku, i doubt that will happen. though i suspect they may be rebalanced, in SR4--less "pasty weakling kid with massive brain powers" and more "normal people with strange, less-massive brain powers".

You mean almost like, "everyone become Otaku?"

You think perhaps the Dissonance might actually help them out to become more "normal?"

Nah... I don't either. nyahnyah.gif

3 for 3, baby. I'm hoping for 3/3.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Mar 15 2005, 04:11 PM)
Garland: A little, as I understand it. I'm pushing for certain changes here, too; those who know me know what I'm pushing for.

And some of us really don't want to see those changes.

Crimsondude, I'm not trying to get rid of them. Just move them south where they belong. I want them to stay around, I just want them to lose some real estate. My intentions are frequently misconstrued. biggrin.gif
Paul
The first sign you've released a poor gaming supplimen: Deckers are "easier than ever." smile.gif

I am strongly skeptical of this, but I withhold any real judgement until I buy it.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Mar 15 2005, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Mar 15 2005, 04:11 PM)
Garland: A little, as I understand it. I'm pushing for certain changes here, too; those who know me know what I'm pushing for.

And some of us really don't want to see those changes.

Crimsondude, I'm not trying to get rid of them. Just move them south where they belong. I want them to stay around, I just want them to lose some real estate. My intentions are frequently misconstrued. biggrin.gif

It's kind of hard to stutter online, but apparently I did so.

I know what you WANT. And I don't want it.

Just to be clear, and not be intentionally vague to be cute: I think the Texas/Aztlan border should stay exactly where it is.
Patrick Goodman
I don't. I have no way of knowing whether it will change or it won't, but I'm going to try to change it.

The only reason I mentioned being misconstrued is that most people take my position on Aztlan as wanting to eliminate them entirely, which is almost exactly opposite of what I want to do. I didn't mean to drag your opinion into that misconstrual. Sorry.

Why do you want this particular border to stay the same? I think I've been pretty vocal about why I want it to change, but I don't know what your objection is to changing it. Genuinely curious here, not trying to bait anybody.
hermit
Patrick Goodman ... for someone who's relatively new here ... why DO you want to change the border?
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
I don't. I have no way of knowing whether it will change or it won't, but I'm going to try to change it.

The only reason I mentioned being misconstrued is that most people take my position on Aztlan as wanting to eliminate them entirely, which is almost exactly opposite of what I want to do. I didn't mean to drag your opinion into that misconstrual. Sorry.

Why do you want this particular border to stay the same? I think I've been pretty vocal about why I want it to change, but I don't know what your objection is to changing it. Genuinely curious here, not trying to bait anybody.

I don't doubt your conviction, or your intent not to flamebait. I have no intention of flaming you.

My first thought is timing. I know Jon described the border, specifically Austin, like the Berlin Wall which makes no sense when AFAIK Korea is a far more appropriate comparison (complete with a "peace bridge"). But I look at Korea, and I see a war that has never officially ended continuing to simmer for a half-century, and I don't see a war occuring any time soon.

My second impression is that this is Texas' problem, and theirs to deal with. I can see this, but it galls me to think of a Virginia Senator telling the constituents back home to send their sons and daughters to die reclaiming land Texas lost in Texas's dispute with Aztlan when Texas reverted back a republic. But now Texas wants Virginia's, and the Carolinas', Georgia's, Florida's, Alabama's, Mississippi's, Louisiana's, Arkansas', Oklahoma's (ha! That's rich), Missouri's, and Tennessee's children to fight Aztlan on behalf of a state that is only a part of the CAS because it had its ass handed to them by the Azzies.

My third reason is that, AFAIK, there is nothing actually worth going to war anymore other than pride. The two countries, or rather to be honest, Texas and Aztlan have been facing each other down in detente for decades. The people who had the most to gain from reclaiming southern Texas are old or dead. A whole generation of Texans grew up with southern Texas in Aztlan's hands. While that may be a rallying cry for Texas nationalism to reclaim southern Texas, for them to deserve to reclaim their land because of Line Developer's fiat does nothing but instigate the decades of peace which have reigned over the rest of North America. If texas were allowed to reclaim southern Texas without the conflict devolving into a nuclear conflict between CAS and Aztlan, the last 50 years (as of 2070) of relative peace will have been for naught, because the moment that a Texas flag is planted in southern Austin, people in the UCAS are going to call for the return of the CAS, the NAN lands, and Quebec for good measure. Oh, and California. Let's not forget Cali. It is a counterproductive move that will lead to nothing but continued bloodshed.

It is likely predicated on the assumption that the Aztechnology/Aztlan forces are bogged down in the Yucatan, which first of all does not justify an invasion on Texas' part. Hitting someone while they're in a fight because ten years ago they hit you isn't exactly reasonable, and you never know when the fight will end and the guy you just hit will turn around and chokeslam you.

Oh, but what about it's "allies?" What about those allies? What does Amazonia have to gain in furthering Texas' interests that couldn't have been taken care of years ago before the forces along the Thin Ocre Line had established a strong defensive position. Well, perhaps Pueblo can assist. After all, they only have their SecForces thinly stretched across the Aztlan border and through the Mojave into occupied Los Angeles, a metroplex with a population of 17 million, water shortages, rampant violence, and now something Pueblo has a vested interest in holding. For them to join in any invasion, perhaps to reclaim the old Guadalupe Hidalgo land that was taken from them by the Azzies, and San Diego while we're at it, would be the strategic equivalent of Oman invading Iran to wrest control of Bandar Abbas while the U.S. invades it from the Iraqi border.

Moreover, PCC has too much power at stake in the NAN and STC to become a political pariah for engaging in aggression that most people have acquiesced to already. Meanwhile, the CAS has become the SR equivalent to the U.S. And one of the things that the CAS may want to do to continue to foster that image is to maintain the moral superiority that they are better than their enemies, and would not be the aggressor in a conflict. But looking more at the political aspect, I return to my second point: How are you going to justify the cost of reclaiming Texas to Virginia or Tennessee?

Short of a deus ex machina that makes Ghostwalker's appearance seem reasonable and logical, I cannot foresee the circumstances necessary to reclaim Texas.

There is only one way to do it that isn't insane: For Aztlan to invade Texas. But then the question remains, why would they? I have yet to see any reason mentioned or even suggested as to why they would all of the sudden invade Texas and provoke the full military response of not just Texas, but the entire CAS.

Give me one good reason, and I'll let it go. Until then, I'm not buying it.

Moreover, I suggest we move this to another thread or PM. This is not the place.
hobgoblin
hmm, time for me to relearn the matrix rules when i get my hands on sr4 it seems. sounds interesting tho, as long as it becomes something diffrent to a mage with a cyberdeck up his ass.
Paul
QUOTE (hermit)
Patrick Goodman ... for someone who's relatively new here ... why DO you want to change the border?

Well because He wrote it, is my guess. Pat's afree lancer, and while I wouldn't be able to quote line and verse of what he's wrote, I can vouch for its quality.
jklst14
This new wireless Matrix sounds a lot like a technologic equivalent of astral space.

* Astral space is a parallel reality overlaying but separate from the meat world. The wireless Matrix is a parallel reality overlaying but separate from the meat world.

* Astral space is accessible to magicians, who can astrally perceive and see both realities simultaneously. The wireless Matrix is accessible to deckers, who jack in or log on and can see both realities simultaneously.

* While perceiving, mages can assense objects and their auras. Magicians can leave their meat bodies behind and travel through astral space, scouting out far locations. While jacked in, deckers can log into computers/machines and interact with them. Deckers can leave their meat bodies behind and surf through the matrix, hacking/accessing distant servers.

* Living objects have auras in astral space. Computers and machines broadcast virtual data 'auras' in the new matrix.

* Some objects exist purely in astral space, such as spirits in astral form. Some objects exist purely in the Matrix, such as programs and packets of information.

* Some objects/beings are dual natured and exist simultaneously in both astral space and the meat world. In the wireless Matrix, perhaps Otaku are 'dual natured', existing in both the virtual and meat world at the same time.

Despite all the neat possibilities of this new Matrix, I still think there will be a place for old fashioned jacking in. I would think that corps would still keep their most valuable information and security systems in hard wired networks that couldn't be accessed by wireles.



akarenti
To continue jklst15's analogy, "traditional" decking may become more like astral projection vs. astral perception.

Sure, a Matrix overlay is great if you infililtrating or checking info on a new contact, but isn't going to do a decker much good if he's trying to get info on a satellite network host. So he'd jack in and his icon could move freely through the virtual overlay, and accomplish whatever.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (jklst14)
Despite all the neat possibilities of this new Matrix, I still think there will be a place for old fashioned jacking in. I would think that corps would still keep their most valuable information and security systems in hard wired networks that couldn't be accessed by wireles.

I'd say that's pretty much a given. The tech level is getting an update to reflect how internet tech has developed today. It also seems logical that a big part of recreating the Matrix system will be to elimanate the tendancy for heavy decking to be a seperate adventure from the rest of the run, one that will sideline most of the PCs for its duration.
Bandwidthoracle
Yeah, I really hope they keep traditional decking. It'd kill my group if decking changes too much as perhaps half of all of my players play deckers, we've gone through multiple copies of Matrix 3, and we all absoutly love the matrix rules (we kinda wish that there where more places to use them, but we absoutly love them)

Edit: And Otaku, we love the whole concept of Otaku, if other people are mage/adept/sammy fanboys we are totally otaku fan boys
Kesh
This sounds like the "wearable computer" concepts coming out of MIT, where people have little HUDs on their glasses and cameras that do face-recognition to tell you who you're looking at, while displaying a map of where you are.

Expand that to let you query the 'net about the artwork you're looking at, find out where the artist lives, determine where the nearest exit is, who does security and the average response time for the cops... so you know how fast you have to run with this painting under your arm. biggrin.gif

of course, you'd still have to "zone out" of meatspace to delve into the building's security systems and disable the door locks, so you don't get trapped inside... leaving decking still a vital part of the system, without being stuck at home with a wire hanging out of your head.
Pthgar
Think of it as an expanded smartlink. "Smartlink X! Not just for combat any more!"
Pthgar
By the way, "Augmented Reality" in a LARP setting was covered pretty well in Larry Niven's & Steven Barnes's "California Voodoo Game." Buy it. Read it.
hermit
This new Matrix, if all the assumptions here are correct, screams Ghost in the Shell". Not nescessarily a bad thing, but it'd change the game balance quite significantly. Also, it'd make installing headware firewalls nescessary for everyone with any kind of implant, which is kind of funny really. And makes Deckers/Hackers indeed assume a position more like mages than some sort of support character. In short, make them more playable. Sounds about okay, but I don't like the revolutionary way they introduce it; I'm always more fond of evolutzionary approaches. It makes things seem more realistic.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Wireknight)
Ah, I can taste the delicious post-cyberpunk flavor in the air. Now, if only we could start slowly integrating technology and magic in some pioneering fashion, Shadowrun could really evolve in an awesome direction that no other game universe is really equipped to go. I hope the new Matrix-augmented reality is a comparable technological analog to the astral plane, sort of an purely technological, equally important, antithesis of the reality of pure magical energies that is overlaid and intertwined with the base mundane reality.

I am guessing this has been the plan since the Big D put the bequest in his will about integrating magic and technology. I would love to see it as long as it isn't forced down our throats by FanPro fiat. Unfortunately I can' t think of a way to do it without forcing it down our throats.

I guess that is why they develop and I read....
mfb
the WMI does not necessarily lead directly to GitS-style ghost hacking, though i'm not necessarily opposed to such a move. i can easily see the designers deciding that accessing the Matrix in augmented reality mode counts as super-super-cold ASIST, which simply lacks the protocols for jacking a user's ASIST levels high enough to damage them in any way.
humer
QUOTE (akarenti)
To continue jklst15's analogy, "traditional" decking may become more like astral projection vs. astral perception.


Apologies beforehand, the following contains references to a certain movie that has been discussed to death...

I got (instant) impression of new wireless Matrix being like, well, the Matrix. As in the movie. So dec...hackers can shift perceptions (as Astral Perception) to the Matrix and see the data flows as Neo does at the end of the first flick, except it's overlaid on top of the real world. "Seen" dataflows can be manipulate while percepting. If following a flow, one must leave meatbod behind (as Astral Projection) and work their mojo.

QUOTE (akarenti)
Sure, a Matrix overlay is great if you infililtrating or checking info on a new contact, but isn't going to do a decker much good if he's trying to get info on a satellite network host.  So he'd jack in and his icon could move freely through the virtual overlay, and accomplish whatever.


That's my opinion also - no plausible reason not to use wired networks to handle more sensitive data and systems since majority of Matrix activity is done wirelessly.

- Humer
Jrayjoker
I think the intent is to have parallel techno archytypes myself. I may be way off base, but having a decker for the on site mainframe and a hacker for the overlay makes sense to me.
marc009
Everything I have heard sounds cool. What about having new paths for otaku in matrix 2.0?
Erebus
I'm really hoping this doesn't turn out to be Cybergenerations take 2.

VR Overlays Reality sounds just a bit too close.
mfb
VR Overlays Reality is an incredibly common them in lots and lots of science fiction, and was done in Transhuman Space before it was done in Cybergeneration. that's like saying that because it's red, it must be an apple.
Synner
Actually no, the original Cybergeneration predates Transhuman Space by quite a bit iirc.
Young Freud
QUOTE (Pthgar)
Think of it as an expanded smartlink. "Smartlink X! Not just for combat any more!"

Think of personal electronic countermeasures. "Drek! I keep getting a no lock. I'm getting jammed!"
mfb
really? huh. the way people talk about it, i thought it was new. the point still stands, though--Cybergeneration definitely isn't the only instance of VR overlays in cyberpunk/sci-fi, nor the only instance of VR overlays in gaming.
kylleran
Please remember that until you see it posted to the main site, or hold the new rules in your grubby little hands that nothing you read here is anything more than rumor or idle speculation.
Crimsondude 2.0
Wha.... This whole thread is based around speculation, supposition, and assumption.

Let it bleed. Let it all bleed out.
kylleran
AFAIK the new Matrix rules were mostly written in a bar after several half drunken viewings of Ghost in the Shell 2. Most of the stuff was lifted more or less directly from cybergeneration (please don't sue us!) because a lot of the writers think this is an underappreciated game that just needed wider exposure. What wasn't lifted from CG was pretty much ported over from the magic chapter, including VR (read astral) perception.
Finally just yesterday it was decided that deckers and otaku should be allowed to summon AI's like mages and shamans (which are now called magi and clerics btw) summon spirits and elemental.
I sure hope I didn't violate my NDA by letting y'all in on this secret.
Critias
Thanks for that constructive addition to the discussion at hand.
DrJest
QUOTE (mfb)
really? huh. the way people talk about it, i thought it was new.

The 1st edition of Cybergeneration was published in 1993. A second edition came out a couple of years later. I don't know what happened to it after that.
MidnightGhost
QUOTE
The 1st edition of Cybergeneration was published in 1993. A second edition came out a couple of years later. I don't know what happened to it after that.


It and it's creators disappeared back in to the abyss from which they came.

Or in a financial since, they took a bad risk and didn't have the money to recover from it. The second edition was a attempt to fix the rules, but it failed because they changed the mood of the game mostly. (yes the rules had trouble too)



mfb
wasn't Cybergeneration written by Karl Wu?
MidnightGhost
if your making a list...

Credits:

Name Credit
Mike Pondsmith Author
Ed Bolme Author
Wade Racine Author
Dave Ackerman Author
Karl Wu Author
Eric Heisserer Author
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