Browsing the FanPro 2005 catalogue from Battlecorps in pdf format, this just sprung to my eye:

sad, and thus all my hopes and dream did come crashing about my head.

heh...beat ya to it

yes. it'd be a much better idea to release a $200, 600-page book that contains all the rules, ever. that'd be a great way to draw new players in, and certainly wouldn't be financial suicide.

Exactly what I was worried about. I understand they need to make money, but I gotta eat, and by the time I can buy another 20 shadowrun books (cause that's about how many 3rd edition books I have), they'll probably be working on 5th edition (which has more to do with my financial situation than the speed at which they produce more editions).

-Joe

Yeah, it does look like a rehash - I hope they put something truly different in there or people will really howl for heads.

Frankly, at least it's better than WH40K which doesn't try to be backwards compatible....*grumble*

so, they should... what? not release new products? or package everything into one insanely expensive tome, so that nobody can afford it? release schedules are how gaming works.

however. it will be interesting to see if FP follows the new WotC model, and begin releasing books as both hardcopy and .pdf downloads.

Yeah, like mfb said. It really depends on how they do it. WotC's streamlining of D&D's rules and their foundation in the basic player's and DM's handbooks didn't prevent them from coming out with later books with advanced rules. But it's still all based in their basic books.

I'm not saying what they should or should not do, I'm just whining about how it affects me. Don't read too far into a completely self centered post.

EDIT: Also, I hope they don't do it like WOTC, who seems to think that they won't sell books unless they add in slightly more powerful feats/new races/base classes that completely escalate the game over time. A number of people I know have come to hate that style (mostly DMs).

-Joe

Having the core system in one book is excellent. Some systems require two (D&D) or more (WoD) books to have the base rules to play the base 'classes'. Regardless of the game; advanced rules, niche themes, and cap systems should be expected in future supplements. An ongoing line of quality products ensures the game company can stay in business, and keeps our heads filled with a continuous stream of concepts for characters and campaigns for years to follow.

I dunno. I sorta liked the magic book. It meant that non-Awakened sorts could pretty much ignore it, and Awakened-sorts could clutch it like the holy book it is.

eh, I see what you're saying, mfb. But I hope at least they include (and drop some of the flatly stupid things) the magic supplementals in SOTA 64 as well as T:AL, etc. If they combine everything while they streamline, that would be nice.

I do hope they don't merge shamans and mages tho...I always liked the dichotomy of the scientific versus nature in magical styles.

Oh, dude. Don't even get me started.

As I was discussing with mfb last night: I'd be tickled thirteen shades of pink if this meant breaking up the totems into new traditions, at the very least to cut down on the insane number of totems. Given the rules expansions for different types of Hermetics, euro-magic, the Paths of Wujen, Loa, Wheel, Adept, Mage and Shaman can be easily expanded so that Mage includes the Hermetic schools and Shaman is divided into geographic totems, which are different other than in name only, while Idol followers and Mythic/Paranormal Totems are also treated differently because they are different.

Eh...I kinda like having the insane number of totems myself. But that's my opinion, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

Frankly, as long as it's all in the expansion and not spread through God's creation I'll be happy.

Well, I also like DE's ideas about totems.

But there is a certain point where some of the totems and idols would be one and the same in certain geographic regions, and the rules should reflect that. I see no reason why I can't play someone from Pueblo who follows Sky Father or Plumed Serpent, especially since they are both part of the mythology of the region. But at the same time, the idea of a Lion or Gator shaman in PCC is ridiculous. I don't even know where they came from that they'd be NA totems.

I would hope that "Street Magic" is mainly a fluff book, giving details and backgrounds to the various magical traditions, with only a small "Advanced Rules" section.
Think "Awakenings" instead of "Magic in the Shadows".

Well, you can hope for a peaceful world, where everyone is happy, too ...

I suppose, that the new magic book will be mainly a rule book with a minor fluff-section. But I always said that a Target: Magic would be nice.

SYL

There's also a lot more to consider than just opinions of which you like better. I mean, right now, shamans have a ruleset for their use of magic, hermetics have another one (their spirit conjuring works differently, they don't get totem bonuses, etc.), houngans have another one (yes, yet another system for spirit conjuring), etc., etc.

To me, from a design perspective, that's a bit of a nightmare. It's not really a matter of whether I like the material or not, but you've got a situation where it's already a mess on the bottom, no less building and developing on it later (like adding stuff like the Hermetic schools, which I love the concept of, but it makes a complicated system even more complicated).

Really, I'd think you'd want as fundamentally basic a system on the bottom as possible, regardless of whether you're talking about shamans, hermetics, houngans, wuxing, psionicists, followers of the Many-Headed Puppy God, whatever. Then leave it open enough that you can expand on it with advanced rules that create conceptual differences between the various types of casters while all working on the same basic rules system.

Kinda like what Crimson mentioned, where Hermetic Schools and Totems might work with the same basic rules frame in mind. That said, I really have no idea what they are doing yet or have planned. So we'll see.

Well, considerung SOTA 64 and the elemental schools from the MitS (+2w6 for combat spells, -1w6 for illusions for exemple), its already pretty similar.

SYL

here's how it ought to work.

magic can be bought on a point-by-point basis. only want two points? buy two points. want to be a full mage? buy six. this should be possible both during chargen and during play.

each point of magic comes with a single metamagic. in this case, the ability to cast a single type of spell (combat, manipulation, etc.) would count as one metamagic, as would be the ability to conjure a single spirit type (fire elemental, spirit of man, etcetera).

package deals would be available: you could buy the Hermetic Mage package, and get a whopping eleven metamagics for your 6 magic (five types of spells, four spirits, astral perception, astral projection). your selection of future metamagics would, however, be limited, as are your means of advancement--you'd have to use the trappings of your chosen school for all rituals, libraries, etcetera.

alternatively, you could be Eclectic. buy magic on a point-for-point basis, selecting whatever metamagic you desire. you get less bang for your buck, but your options for advancement are wide open. you would be able to use any trappings from any school, or make up your own.

I like the concept, but how would the adept fit in?

Don't forget to toss Physical Magic in there

i think adept package deals would be based on their path, and would offer discounts on certain powers. each power point would count as a seperat metamagic.

The difference between SR and, say, D&D 3.0 is that while WotC released tons of new material for D&D - regional books, books with new spells, new feats, new prestige classes, etc., which could and did result in power creep and general clutter, it didn't actually release very many new rules.

In SR, magic, rigging and decking are not expanded in the "supplements", they're changed in major ways. And while SR should get some slack because of how many different facets it has, this sort of massive rules-bloat is an indication of a poor design.

The problem is the utter lack of basis for most of the newer totems (I'd say at least half of the totems listed in MitS) in NA beliefs.

Of course, there is still also the GIANT assumption that NA beliefs are in any way the same, or even work the same way, or how they interact with other rules for, say, Insect shamans. It's a good think Spider was never made an Insect totem, because that would be contradictory to the basis of totem magic in NA beliefs.

Of course, this whole "most NA magic is totem magic" idea is ridiculous, as well. So, what can I say except, "Anything else is better."

I think that basic initiation rules and a handful of metamagics should be available in the main sourcebook, but that all advanced rules (magical edges and flaws, the lion's share of metamagics, enchanting rules, free spirits, magical threats) should be delegated to a seperate core expansion rulebook. I don't know that I quite agree with the idea of point-based magic purchase as mfb has outlined it. I think the idea itself is promising, but the implementation is flawed.

I think that, if we're going to go with his enumerations, then full magicians should get something like 11 points, universally, while aspected magicians and adepts get 6 points. Otherwise, most people who want to keep their existing characters will have to pick up the "hermetic package" or "shamanic package" and, as mfb stated, lose out on some of the new flexibility and shininess available to characters who avoid buying package deals entirely.

"Package" sounds a whole like like "class" to me.

SR magic, with it's mostly clear delinations, is enough for me.

Well, there is the Hermetic Library and so on in the sense of tiny differences (even between toxic and twisted). Personally, I always like the seperation and felt there should be even more of it.

But the actual rules are exactly the same. Sure they way they are used (Modifiers) are different, but the rules are the same basic stuff-D6, opposed tests, etc...

Conjuring doesn't really work differently, though, for different types. Durations and trappings change, but in the end, it's all a matter of rolling Conjuring plus bonuses against TN# plus modifiers, then resisting drain with Charisma. Changing it to, say, make elementals able to be conjured as a complex action, or making spirits last until their services run out, to make it "uniform", would damage the good parts of the difference from one summoning tradition to the next. Variety is the spice of life.

The rules are totally different, just the mechanics are the same. Not so much for Sorcery, sure.

I never used geasa, anyhow. I feel that if you get cyberware and bioware, you should pay the price with a reduced magic rating. If you want to raise it, do it through initiation, not through keeping the magic but doing the chicken dance every time you cast a lethal combat spell. Oftentimes, the limitations of geasa (maybe I've just run under conservative GMs who will use any weakness I display for my character against them at one point or another) are worse than just taking the hit and losing Magic.

Yep, I agree. I'd like to be able to do more mixing and matching with the magic abilities. There are times when I'd like to play a character that has just a hint of power, not a full Mage or Adept.

Thanks for the clarification.

Some opinions and ideas on which way I think magic should develop for SR4:

Skills, spells and metamagic
I do believe that the magic system of SR is more complicated than it have to be. A full revision may be needed. The thing is that it is built upon the D&Dish notion of spellslinging. (This is indeed a semiotic misunderstanding as you don't throw or sling spells when you cast them. You give them form.)
They added conjuring in addition to the spellslinging. Then they added enchanting. Then they added various metamagic which are attempts to make the magic more "realistic": Divination, Quickening, Anchoring, etc. Then there's the astral, A. Perception and A. Projection and metamagics such as Sensing, Cleansing, Psychometry, etc.
All in all lots of interesting ideas are added, but they are added on top of the spellslinger system. Hence it is very complicated.
What could be done is a complete revison where Sorcery no longer is the basic magic skill. Instead let's do away with some of the metamagic and spells and replaced them with magical skills. Exactly how I can't fathom right now, but to start with I imagine something along the following:
- Divination covers most detection magic (think pendulums) in addition to actual prophecies
- Enchanting covers what it does + anchoring
- Astral sensing for Aura Reading, Sensing, Psychometry, mind reading
- Astral manipulation (requires projection to be used) for Cleansing, Severing, Filtering, Masking and other manipulations of things astral
- Conjuring, as is (but see below on spirits)
- Sorcery for spellcasting as is, though spell categories should be rethought. As is there's a bloat in the Manipulation category.
- More power to the metaplanes, such as introducing the metaplane of Dreaming (something several fan- and author-sites has proposed, but then there's the Dream spell).

[More magical traditions
It doesn't make sense that Voudoun is a Tradition with different mechanics and spirits, while Druidic magic follows the same rules as NA shamans. As pointed out, NA shamans should also be different. Not everyone has Totems. Idols was/is a BAD idea. The rules laid down in MitS (I believe Idols first appeared in the Germany SB) was a serious hindrance when we worked with the European magical traditions.
The rules should be fairly similar regardless of tradition, but the approach should be clearly different for each Tradition. Possible traditions:
- Hermetics (with the paradigms)
- Alchemy (not a paradigm of Hermeticism anymore)
- Psionics (now a full-fledged tradition rather than an oddity)
- various strands of Neo-Paganism
- Traditional Witchcraft
- Quabbala (should definetly not be Hermetics)
- etc.. separate traditions based on different cultures (various Native American, Voudoun, various African, Aborigine)

More diversified spirits
Going with the traditions, spirits should be more diversified. As is they are very general. If you are a Theurgist mage you summon angels, but per SR3 rules these are actually Elementals that appear like angels. Doesn't make much sense to me. Elementals are clearly connected to the Hermetic idea of the four basic elements and has nothing to do with angels. Christian Hermeticism may tie these elementals to a four-tiered heaven or various arch-angels, but won't confuse them with angels.
Why limit conjuring to a few certain types of generic spirits? There could be many more kinds of spirits which the magician may interact and gain services from. In European folklore and New Age myth there's the idea of the follower/guardian angel, there are faeries, ghosts and demons. These are more independent kinds, but not necessarily more than in the relationship between shamans and nature spirits. Then there are all the mythological spirits or gods. Totems can be actual spirits in addition to spiritual guidelines. Why can't you summon them?
Some approaches to this may be:
- all spirits summoned are individual beeings, close to how free spirits are now. Or probably closer to how faeries are now. There's no generic spirits as such. You don't conjure a river spirit, you can the nymph of this specific river. In another river there's no nymph, but a water horse.
- You may indeed conjure any kind of spirits, but your tradition deceides how you treat them and limits what kind of spirits you may services from. (EX: Hermetics would have a very hard time getting any kind of nature spirit to even listen to them and won't get any services from them. Shamans would be overwhelmed by the primalness of Elementals and won't be able to command them.) The main difference from SR3 would be that there are more spirit types available. For instance: Hermetics may learn Demonology in addition to Elemental summoning allowing conjuring and binding of weird spirits from unknown metaplanes. A witch may learn to how to get guidance and help from her "follower" ie conjure it. Though, I think that there still shoud be barriers between the traditions, but it should be clearer that they have to do with different approaches and beliefs rather than laws of magic.

Making spellcasting less "slinging" and more magic
- Reintroduce expendable/reusable fetishes from SR2 (which let's you cast spells at a higher Force for less cost). Add a system where you may learn a spell with ritual (obvious complex action, making casting the spell two complex actions) built-in for much the same effect as fetishes.
IMO spells with rituals or fetishes should be the standard and spellcasting without such constraints should be something awesome and powerful. Beeing able to cast a "Ray of Death" with the mere wave of the hand rather than with a lot chanting and dancing should be the domain of really powerful mages, not the standard for a wiz-boy who've just discovered his talent.
- Dump Sympatethic linking as a metamagic and use it as it was in SR2 (standard for ritual magic).

Hmmm... Been writing on and off on this post for some hours. Hope it is somewhat coherent still. There are many good ideas floating around here which I would have liked to comment on, but can't right now.

heh, same here. i didn't like the idea when i first heard it, but it's grown on me.