Mine:
1> Combat rules that make sense, a knife should not be more damaging to a brick wall than a firearm (plinking calibre's not withstanding). I don't care how many pickup truck sthat troll can dead-lift, there is only so much force that can be applied to a weapon before it snaps.
2> Weapon creation rules that are used for all weapons in the game, that is, the Ares Predator or the Slivergun are reproduceable through the creation ruleset.
3> Matrix use/abuse more fun. If decking is so powerful, why aren't there more players willing to be propeller heads?
4> Removal of Open Tests, in favor of a more sensible, system. It needs to allow for the rare 1 int NPC to "get lucky" and spot you, but don't make it so common either.
5> Magic rules that make sense. If inivisibility affect the mind of the viewer, why does astral perception break it instantly?
Full Version: Your top 5
I don't know if I can come up with 5, but here goes:
1) Pictures of devices/guns/vehicles.
2) More maps. (as in floor plans, city maps (like in Denver), etc)
3) Some tweaking of the lethality of the game (I think it needs to be a little more deadly)
4) Maybe more of an abstraction of ECM/ECCM/ECD, etc etc. Maybe rolling up all of those into one rating/test?
5) More FanPro-provided (or at least supported) software tools. Generators, etc.
1) Pictures of devices/guns/vehicles.
2) More maps. (as in floor plans, city maps (like in Denver), etc)
3) Some tweaking of the lethality of the game (I think it needs to be a little more deadly)
4) Maybe more of an abstraction of ECM/ECCM/ECD, etc etc. Maybe rolling up all of those into one rating/test?
5) More FanPro-provided (or at least supported) software tools. Generators, etc.
Actually, I'd like them to bring McMackie into the fold and work with him to design the 4th ed. version. Get him some much deserved props from FanPro
1) Rules that generally are in one place, streamlined and few rules "expansions"
2) Decking that is simplified so playing a decker is feasible in a group rather than seperately
3) Balanced Weapon Creation rules that fit everything else
4) re-seperate Magic from Science (never liked the increasing overlap myself)
5) Balanced Adept rules that are in one place
[edit] OOO! I second the maps idea!
2) Decking that is simplified so playing a decker is feasible in a group rather than seperately
3) Balanced Weapon Creation rules that fit everything else
4) re-seperate Magic from Science (never liked the increasing overlap myself)
5) Balanced Adept rules that are in one place
[edit] OOO! I second the maps idea!
- revisited damage codes (like 8M heavy pistol /smg and 10M assault rifle /light MG)
- revisited prices and weights for equipment und ´ware
- less rules (and no rules for the construction of guns or vehicles ... modifications are ok)
- faster rules
- easier rules
- karma/point buy system with edges and flaws as the default character creation system
- revisited prices and weights for equipment und ´ware
- less rules (and no rules for the construction of guns or vehicles ... modifications are ok)
- faster rules
- easier rules
- karma/point buy system with edges and flaws as the default character creation system
That kind of thing would be awesome. Alot of guys have put in years developing stuff for SR, and it would great to see them continue so with support from the official developer. (Not that they don't get it now, but I'm sure there are things that would be helpful from FanPro)
in no particular order:
1. integrated melee rules. no differing rules for armed and unarmed combat.
2. realistic damage codes. a handgun should not have more penetrating power than a rifle.
3. simplified, unified, sensible matrix and rigging rules that can be built upon for higher complexity.
4. magic that can be purchased by the point, in or out of chargen.
5. my name on the playtester list.
1. integrated melee rules. no differing rules for armed and unarmed combat.
2. realistic damage codes. a handgun should not have more penetrating power than a rifle.
3. simplified, unified, sensible matrix and rigging rules that can be built upon for higher complexity.
4. magic that can be purchased by the point, in or out of chargen.
5. my name on the playtester list.
1. Point system as main char creation system
2. Windlings
3. More AI goodness
4. A return of the Addiction flaw. (Kitsune needs her caffeine addiction to be cannon.)
5. Another agreement on the maps. At least for Seattle.
2. Windlings
3. More AI goodness
4. A return of the Addiction flaw. (Kitsune needs her caffeine addiction to be cannon.)
5. Another agreement on the maps. At least for Seattle.
Let's see...
1.) Streamlined hacking/decking system that's as fun to play as standard combat or social characters, but not so involved and one-sided that those characters feel completely left out when the hacking begins.
2.) Streamlined, unified, combat system. All combat to be resolved the same way regardless of melee or ranged status.
3.) Full integration of any 'creation rules' in the core product. All weapons, spells, vehicles, cyberware, or whatever is backwards compatible with the corresponding creation system regardless of which book that creation system appears in.
4.) The continuation of the shadowrun 'feel'. I want some shadowtalk (less in the core product, but still some), metaplot, and all of the great story that continues to make Shadowrun such a unique and fun place to visit in my mind.
5.) I'll take a spot as a playtester too.
1.) Streamlined hacking/decking system that's as fun to play as standard combat or social characters, but not so involved and one-sided that those characters feel completely left out when the hacking begins.
2.) Streamlined, unified, combat system. All combat to be resolved the same way regardless of melee or ranged status.
3.) Full integration of any 'creation rules' in the core product. All weapons, spells, vehicles, cyberware, or whatever is backwards compatible with the corresponding creation system regardless of which book that creation system appears in.
4.) The continuation of the shadowrun 'feel'. I want some shadowtalk (less in the core product, but still some), metaplot, and all of the great story that continues to make Shadowrun such a unique and fun place to visit in my mind.
5.) I'll take a spot as a playtester too.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| in no particular order: 1. integrated melee rules. no differing rules for armed and unarmed combat. 2. realistic damage codes. a handgun should not have more penetrating power than a rifle. 3. simplified, unified, sensible matrix and rigging rules that can be built upon for higher complexity. 4. magic that can be purchased by the point, in or out of chargen. 5. my name on the playtester list. |
Echo that 100%
I especially like the idea of, "magic that can be purchased by the point, in or out of chargen."
I've seen prospective rules. They work. They work really well.
Care to elaborate?
1. All combat, melee and ranged, ought to end up with the same relative rules set. No more strange power-increased-by-staging effects that only apply to melee attacks, among other things.
2. Simplified, ideally unified, rules for rigging, decking, and other telepresence/augmented-reality based interaction systems. Even when someone is dedicated enough to learn both of the current systems, it's unlikely they'll be able to convince their GM to learn them as well.
3. Revamp the guns. From mounting points to damage codes, weapons in Shadowrun cause lots of people who are well-versed in real-life weapons to boggle. Introduction of a medium pistol might be a good start for this.
4. Telecommunications gear, including cyberware, has got to be revamped. Essence costs, concealabilities, capabilities, they're all far more restrictive than they should be.
5. Weights. Either they need to be done away with, or a reasonable system of determining maximum carrying capacity, and determining the individual weights of most objects, needs to be undertaken. Right now both seem broken.
2. Simplified, ideally unified, rules for rigging, decking, and other telepresence/augmented-reality based interaction systems. Even when someone is dedicated enough to learn both of the current systems, it's unlikely they'll be able to convince their GM to learn them as well.
3. Revamp the guns. From mounting points to damage codes, weapons in Shadowrun cause lots of people who are well-versed in real-life weapons to boggle. Introduction of a medium pistol might be a good start for this.
4. Telecommunications gear, including cyberware, has got to be revamped. Essence costs, concealabilities, capabilities, they're all far more restrictive than they should be.
5. Weights. Either they need to be done away with, or a reasonable system of determining maximum carrying capacity, and determining the individual weights of most objects, needs to be undertaken. Right now both seem broken.
CYBERLIMBS THAT ARE USEFULL!!!!
Also, vehicule that are not 100% invulnerable to normal ammo and 100% vulnerable to AV ammo...
Also, vehicule that are not 100% invulnerable to normal ammo and 100% vulnerable to AV ammo...
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| CYBERLIMBS THAT ARE USEFULL!!!! |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yeah... That'll happen.
echo the playtester comment here as well. I'm definately going to upgrade as soon as it comes out.
1) A runnable game from the corebook, that is not significantly different from the game that is run with the expansion books. Rules creep = bad.
2) Mechanics that are extremely Shadowrun-flavored, and follow the "first, do no harm" philosophy -- no new rules that are equally or more difficult than the SR3 ones.
3) A complete re-balancing of the technology levels, with consistent "this is possible right now; this isn't possible yet; this is being researched but is presently not viable" structure.
4) A more consistent tone in the artwork and fluff text. Shadowrun is a cute, fun game, but it's also a game about Shadowrunning -- no more artwork with street kids packing more heat than my troll weapons specialist.
5) Consistent rulesets by situation -- that is, if we can't have unified rules, can we at least make it so that all of the guys who are beating each other up in this very room use similar rules to do so?
-Albert
2) Mechanics that are extremely Shadowrun-flavored, and follow the "first, do no harm" philosophy -- no new rules that are equally or more difficult than the SR3 ones.
3) A complete re-balancing of the technology levels, with consistent "this is possible right now; this isn't possible yet; this is being researched but is presently not viable" structure.
4) A more consistent tone in the artwork and fluff text. Shadowrun is a cute, fun game, but it's also a game about Shadowrunning -- no more artwork with street kids packing more heat than my troll weapons specialist.
5) Consistent rulesets by situation -- that is, if we can't have unified rules, can we at least make it so that all of the guys who are beating each other up in this very room use similar rules to do so?
-Albert
Oh. Yeh. Playtest too. Hee.
I have another...
6.) An easier way to build antagonists/NPCs. Maybe there is an easy way to make and run them in 3e, but I never figured it out. With other people often being the primary opposition in almost every adventure/campaign, I found myself spending hours generating character templates for different encounters. I don't know if such a system is even possible in a classless game, but man would it make my life easier.
6.) An easier way to build antagonists/NPCs. Maybe there is an easy way to make and run them in 3e, but I never figured it out. With other people often being the primary opposition in almost every adventure/campaign, I found myself spending hours generating character templates for different encounters. I don't know if such a system is even possible in a classless game, but man would it make my life easier.
Or at least a simplified way to make groups of NPCs...the antagonists generally need to have more color than the average NPC, so I'd always take more care in creating them.
1. Dropping of the 1980's tech assumptions. Laser sights have not been bulky enough to justify a -1 to concealability for a very long time. The Pocket Secretary should be the size of an iPod at the most, and perhaps half the size of a USB flash-drive at best. Under the current rules, your Pocket Secretary has the same concealability as an assault rifle.
2. Concealabilty needs a revamp. Right now, it's a catchall stat that covers size/bulk, visual obviousness, resistance to being found during a pat-down, amount of metal content that can trigger a metal detector. These different attributes, while sometimes linked, are not always. When they're wildly different, it's hard to pin down the rating.
3. Revamping of personal electronics in general, and particularly personal computers. When you look at the per Megapulse pricing on personal computers, compared to per Megapulse pricing on other items, it's hard to reconcile the differences. In cases where you need a certain higher price per Mp for game balance reasons, such as decking, they should come up with in-game fluff to explain why (decking requires ASIST Processing Grade memory, which operates at a higher clockspeed and requires extra error checking routines, which is why it's more expensive) In places where you get a standard amount of storage for cheaper than normal, cover whether or not that storage can be cannibalized with an Electronics B/R Test, and if it can, make sure that it's balanced. Finally, make sure that per Megapulse pricing for storage media is priced sanely, so that certain character types such as media hounds and detectives, who may be making a lot of trideo recording are still viable character types without having to resort to online storage accounts.
4. Extrapolate current technologically-driven social trends. Camera Phones are turning everyone into photojournalists & amateur pornographers at the same time, giving us not a Big Brother, but a Little Brother instead. Churches and Theaters are investing in cellphone jammers that render the devices unable to connect to the network even if an uncourteous person leaves them on.
5. Re-evaluate copy-protection and the impact of filesharing on both software, and entertainment media, and paydata in general. While it's true that if decker utilities were freely fileshared, it'd be that much easier to develop IC countermeasures for them, but on the flipside, deckers should be able to rip configuration logs from hosts, as well as their own combat utilities' analysis of any IC it defeats and return that data back to the decker community to make it easier to write the next generation of utilities.
*Bonus* I know you only said five, but this one's small: Get the stats for the Camo Jacket and the stats for Camo Clothing right: the Camo Jacket is an armored jacket with a camo pattern; the suit of Camo Clothing is like a regular suit of armored clothing with a camo pattern and slightly better impact protection. Between Errata, Revision Changes, Errata to Revision Changes, New Books, and Errata to New Books, the developers lost sight of Fields of Fire's original intent for these items a couple of times.
2. Concealabilty needs a revamp. Right now, it's a catchall stat that covers size/bulk, visual obviousness, resistance to being found during a pat-down, amount of metal content that can trigger a metal detector. These different attributes, while sometimes linked, are not always. When they're wildly different, it's hard to pin down the rating.
3. Revamping of personal electronics in general, and particularly personal computers. When you look at the per Megapulse pricing on personal computers, compared to per Megapulse pricing on other items, it's hard to reconcile the differences. In cases where you need a certain higher price per Mp for game balance reasons, such as decking, they should come up with in-game fluff to explain why (decking requires ASIST Processing Grade memory, which operates at a higher clockspeed and requires extra error checking routines, which is why it's more expensive) In places where you get a standard amount of storage for cheaper than normal, cover whether or not that storage can be cannibalized with an Electronics B/R Test, and if it can, make sure that it's balanced. Finally, make sure that per Megapulse pricing for storage media is priced sanely, so that certain character types such as media hounds and detectives, who may be making a lot of trideo recording are still viable character types without having to resort to online storage accounts.
4. Extrapolate current technologically-driven social trends. Camera Phones are turning everyone into photojournalists & amateur pornographers at the same time, giving us not a Big Brother, but a Little Brother instead. Churches and Theaters are investing in cellphone jammers that render the devices unable to connect to the network even if an uncourteous person leaves them on.
5. Re-evaluate copy-protection and the impact of filesharing on both software, and entertainment media, and paydata in general. While it's true that if decker utilities were freely fileshared, it'd be that much easier to develop IC countermeasures for them, but on the flipside, deckers should be able to rip configuration logs from hosts, as well as their own combat utilities' analysis of any IC it defeats and return that data back to the decker community to make it easier to write the next generation of utilities.
*Bonus* I know you only said five, but this one's small: Get the stats for the Camo Jacket and the stats for Camo Clothing right: the Camo Jacket is an armored jacket with a camo pattern; the suit of Camo Clothing is like a regular suit of armored clothing with a camo pattern and slightly better impact protection. Between Errata, Revision Changes, Errata to Revision Changes, New Books, and Errata to New Books, the developers lost sight of Fields of Fire's original intent for these items a couple of times.
| QUOTE (SporkPimp) |
| A more consistent tone in the artwork |
Like, showing trolls in the right size compared to other metahumans, cars or buildings (f*cking huge - 280cm not 210cm, that's 1m taller than a human, not just one head!).
Runners using equipment that can actually be found in the gear books - and gear pictures should fit gear descriptions/stats (*cough* conceal rating *cough*).
For short: Make sure contracted artists know the game!
Oh yes, better amor rules ... I mean amored jacket and amored clothings layerd are so incredible unwearable compared to a security or military amor ... why?
SYL
SYL
| QUOTE (Nikoli @ Mar 15 2005, 01:54 PM) |
| Care to elaborate? |
They've been posted elsewhere. But, really, it's just that simple. There is a list of all the metamagics, sorcery, conjuring, physical adeptry, warding, enchanting, astral perception, astral projection.
A standard mage has the eqv. powers at chargen:
Sorcery
Conjuring
Astral Projection
Astral Perception
Warding
Enchanting
A physical adept has
Adeptness (6)
A Magician Adept has
Adeptness (X)
Magic Power (Magic attr-X)
The difference comes with Aspected Magicians. But they are Priority B. They don't get all the power. TO an extent, they can be considered to have permanent Geasa, but they have fewer powers than Full Mages do at chargen.
Aspected Magicians (depending). Shamanist/Elementalist
Sorcery(limited)
Conjuring (limited)
Astral Perception
Warding
Enchanting
Aspected Magicians (depending). Sorceror/Conjuror
Sorcery/Conjuring
Astral Perception
Warding
Enchanting
They have two slots open, and cannot have Conjuring/Sorcery or Projection at chargen. To this end, to emphasize their more specialized nature, the Sorceror could pick up at chargen. But they are Priority B/less BP. They should have limits. Now, you can limit their choices to 4 or 5 powers.
However, consider MY Sorceror, who is Full Mage Eqv.
He has the following powers to start:
Sorcery
Conjuring
Astral Projection
Astral Perception
Warding
Enchanting
Now, then. I am going to switch out Conjuring. That doesn't mean I can't get Conjuring later. But it becomes a metamagic which I have to Initiate to learn. Luckily, there are lots of people I can learn it from. I also don't need Astral Projection at chargen. I can pick that up later, say Grade 3 when I need to start doing Astral Quests.
Instead, I pick two common metamagics-- Centering and Shielding. I'm going to be getting into a lot of spell combat, so I want to be able to shrug off drain and penalties, or add dice, and I want as much spell defense as I can muster.
Now I have six magic points worth of metamagical powers:
Sorcery
Astral Perception
Warding
Enchanting
Quickening
Centering
For the purposes of tests involving these powers, treat as being only applicable to yourself until you Initiate.
At Grade 1, I pick up Masking. At Grade 2, I picked up Reflecting. Grade 3, Astral Projection. Grade 4, Conjuring. Grades 5 & 6, Adeptness. I am now a magican adept. ph34r m3.
Edit
Someone else describing the same process reminded me: This system works best with BP, since theoretically, you can have anywhere from 1 to 6 Magic Points (6 still being the cap). It makes the division between the BP for full mages/physmages and adepts less arbitrary. Adepts would get the same BP as a Full Mage, but if you want to be the equivalent of a SR3 Elementalist, you don't have to blow as many BP at chargen.
You can make a Sorceror. He has 4 metamagics, and would cost fewer BP. However, his Magical skills tests would still be tied to his Magic Attr of 6 (- mods) for max Force (spells/spirits), etc. Perhaps make each metamagic 5 BP, which is directly point-for-point equal to the current BP cost of a 6-pt magician. Adepts should also cost 30, but Aspected should cost 25 (Shamanist/Elementalist) or 20 (Sorceror/Conjuror) and the 25 BP Aspected follow Geasa (no need to really fuck them over) which they must follow until they can shed it during Initiation (so much for a new metamagic).
Okay, I'm really breaking the rules of the thread...
7.) I'd like to see something done with equipment sizes for differently sized metahumans. I generally dislike the current "metahuman modified" system used for weapons. I understand how much larger a troll hand would be, but why would a troll bother modifying a pistol at all? I dunno... something about that never seemed right to me.
7.) I'd like to see something done with equipment sizes for differently sized metahumans. I generally dislike the current "metahuman modified" system used for weapons. I understand how much larger a troll hand would be, but why would a troll bother modifying a pistol at all? I dunno... something about that never seemed right to me.
Let me first discount wanting to see revision of all the busted-ass rules that appear in the game - such as cyberlimbs, weights, light vs heavy pistols, etc. We can take that for granted, because it's sorta the point of a new edition. At least, the point beyond updating the world and making more money.
So...
1) Total integration of the new matrix into the lives of damn near every citizen, in a true transhumanist/posthumanist way. Make people without integration the equivalent of mountain men or the amish are now - or at least start leading that direction. One of the problems of Shadowrun's previous editions is that technology was supposed to rule lives and govern daily activity, but it's been relatively late in 3rd edition that we've seen real evidence of that.
2) Expanded rules for 'types' of Hermetics, and some extra variety for them. Long have I and my mage-playing brethren been given the short shrift in terms of interesting variants in favor of a thousand and one Shamanic totems. Not to mention paying a bajillion more nuyen for our power.
3) Sensible vehicle rules. I'm not holding my breath.
4) Resolution to the General Saito/CalFree situation. Because five years of a retarded situation only makes it more retarded.
5) Cyber/Bio/Nanoware revision. Give the new batch of Shadowrunners the 'bleeding edge' feel that we got when the first goldenkids packing Bioware came out (immediately post-printing of Shadowtech). Low-profile, subtle ware with a penchant for aiding people in unexpected ways - such as facial-resculpting nodes, quickchange hair and skin, headware packages that detect drone sensor locks, et cetera. Ware that doesn't make you a borg, but makes you *perfect*. Perfect movement. Perfect eyesight. The perfect smile. stuff that makes it so you don't need to fight, rather than lets you fight like a maniac. And finally, ware that lets you fight like a maniac. For those times when it has to happen.
Let's give the old-timers, the ones who've been running since 2055, the feeling that they're rusting.
So...
1) Total integration of the new matrix into the lives of damn near every citizen, in a true transhumanist/posthumanist way. Make people without integration the equivalent of mountain men or the amish are now - or at least start leading that direction. One of the problems of Shadowrun's previous editions is that technology was supposed to rule lives and govern daily activity, but it's been relatively late in 3rd edition that we've seen real evidence of that.
2) Expanded rules for 'types' of Hermetics, and some extra variety for them. Long have I and my mage-playing brethren been given the short shrift in terms of interesting variants in favor of a thousand and one Shamanic totems. Not to mention paying a bajillion more nuyen for our power.
3) Sensible vehicle rules. I'm not holding my breath.
4) Resolution to the General Saito/CalFree situation. Because five years of a retarded situation only makes it more retarded.
5) Cyber/Bio/Nanoware revision. Give the new batch of Shadowrunners the 'bleeding edge' feel that we got when the first goldenkids packing Bioware came out (immediately post-printing of Shadowtech). Low-profile, subtle ware with a penchant for aiding people in unexpected ways - such as facial-resculpting nodes, quickchange hair and skin, headware packages that detect drone sensor locks, et cetera. Ware that doesn't make you a borg, but makes you *perfect*. Perfect movement. Perfect eyesight. The perfect smile. stuff that makes it so you don't need to fight, rather than lets you fight like a maniac. And finally, ware that lets you fight like a maniac. For those times when it has to happen.
Let's give the old-timers, the ones who've been running since 2055, the feeling that they're rusting.
| QUOTE (M¥$T1C) |
| Like, showing trolls in the right size compared to other metahumans, cars or buildings (f*cking huge - 280cm not 210cm, that's 1m taller than a human, not just one head!). |
I'll have to disagree about 87% here. It'd be better if they just revamped troll heights to be in the 210-240cm range. Either that or keep the trolls at the height they are, raise their weight accordingly (into the 350-500kg range), and really enforce the immense problems that would cause.
Trolls Weight, What do you do?
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| CYBERLIMBS THAT ARE USEFULL!!!! Also, vehicule that are not 100% invulnerable to normal ammo and 100% vulnerable to AV ammo... |
They already are useful. The ECU rules, that's what are completely stupid. I'd like to give a swift kick in the ass to the moron who came up with those. (And knowing he's probably reading these words, yes, YOU, you moron!)
Like -- why is it that better cyberlimbs (in grade) have less room to put stuff in? You'd think the opposite would be true.
But as far as my 5:
1) Mages get ignored for a while, let's see more development on the cyber and mundane front. I'm not saying make sammies more powerful; I'm saying give mundanes the same level of opportunity given to mages and mundanes for versatility. And give plain-jane mundanes -- I'm talking no cyber, no magic whatsoever -- some in-game bonuses, possibly with a story-driven backlash against cyber and magic. Or possibly some low-grade 'magical' abilities -- like magic, but not magic -- coming from inner talents, like Edges & Flaws, that go away when you get cyberware.
2) Reimplementation of the Power-Level-Staging code system from SR1 in a fashion that makes sense. It could be the answer to our problems with the firearms system. For example, rifles which do 8M damage but require 3 successes to stage down, not 2 -- in essence, an 8M3 damage code -- that would make them what they should be.
3) I guess they're working on the telecommunications and wireless systems for Matrix, so we'll see more deckers who aren't tied to their cyberdecks and a jackpoint. Pity; I rather liked that element of the game. I'm only learning now just how central the decker should be to any group -- even moreso than the mage or the sammie.
4) Martial arts systems which work with armed combat skills. In fact, martial arts systems which work, period.
5) A tech system which works and which lets characters play technical-minded characters -- and I don't mean just the guy with the Electronics and the Electronics B/R which gets you past the unlinked-to-the-Matrix maglock, I mean guys who build your Maglock Passkeys and your Jammers and your other tech toys, as part of their reason for being there in the Shadows. Don't even try to tell me these kinds of characters aren't Shadowrunners -- I played them in Cyberpunk 2020 all the time. Techies of the world, unite!
Build Points as the standard for the chargen system.
| QUOTE (Deacon) |
And give plain-jane mundanes -- I'm talking no cyber, no magic whatsoever -- some in-game bonuses, possibly with a story-driven backlash against cyber and magic. Or possibly some low-grade 'magical' abilities -- like magic, but not magic -- coming from inner talents, like Edges & Flaws, that go away when you get cyberware. |
Well, Cyberware and magic are supposed to make people better than the un-enhanced ... i mean the mundane today who is repairing a car without the proper tools is handicaped too. Mundanes are just that: mundanes ... old flesh, not good enough anymore more the magical, cyberenhanced worldk 2070
| QUOTE |
code -- that would make them what they should be. |
I would just say:
heavy pistole / SMG: 8M
assault rifle / LMG: 10M
etc ...
SYL
| QUOTE (Deacon) |
| [QUOTE=Backgammon,Mar 15 2005, 09:09 PM]. 2) Reimplementation of the Power-Level-Staging code system from SR1 in a fashion that makes sense. It could be the answer to our problems with the firearms system. For example, rifles which do 8M damage but require 3 successes to stage down, not 2 -- in essence, an 8M3 damage code -- that would make them what they should be. |
I like this one, but only if it's on the staging the damage down side of the equation. Don't make it any harder for the shooter to stage that 8M3 up to a serious or a deadly, than it would be to stage a light pistol up. Skill is skill.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| CYBERLIMBS THAT ARE USEFULL!!!! |
TESTIFY!
Really, all I want is getting cybered up to be as cool as being a Mage.
| QUOTE (apple) | ||
Well, Cyberware and magic are supposed to make people better than the un-enhanced ... i mean the mundane today who is repairing a car without the proper tools is handicaped too. Mundanes are just that: mundanes ... old flesh, not good enough anymore more the magical, cyberenhanced worldk 2070 |
Some people just don't understand, apple. Don't bother.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Either that or keep the trolls at the height they are, raise their weight accordingly (into the 350-500kg range), and really enforce the immense problems that would cause. |
That's what I would like to see.
If they decide to include a race with such bizarre body size/weight they should as well show the consequences.
I usually don't allow the stealth skill for troll characters. I mean, it's a being the size of a small car, its footsteps can be heard over several stories - playing trolls is no fun when I'm the GM.
I firmly believe that trolls are completely unfit for the shadowrunner profession - stealthy, sneaky breaking-and-entering experts. Living heavy weapon support platforms, that's a different thing.
) makes cyber/bioware costs like beta and delta more the norm as well as more varierty of things like increasing reaction or init dice. Kind of like writing unix code: many little things that add up to bigger things aside from large systems that do it all.
) Some changes in the mechanics of melee combat to add more abilities and options.
) overhauls to magic putting more emphasis on Initiation / Metamagic
) Build points for chargen would be cool. Since there are no classes, then let players build exactly what they want. Very cool indeed.
) Ressurect Rigging from the mess it is.
) Some changes in the mechanics of melee combat to add more abilities and options.
) overhauls to magic putting more emphasis on Initiation / Metamagic
) Build points for chargen would be cool. Since there are no classes, then let players build exactly what they want. Very cool indeed.
) Ressurect Rigging from the mess it is.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||||
Some people just don't understand, apple. Don't bother. |
Oh, I understand just fine. Just that people are screaming about mundanes falling further and further behind the ability curve, throw 'em a bone.
You know what? On second thought, scratch point 1. I'd like to see Mages and Mundanes more balanced, but in different ways. To hell with true mundanes. If they can't get cyberware, and don't have magic, let 'em suffer. Next time, (takes on a Jim Carrey-like voice) DON'T TAKE THE CYBER-REJECTION FLAW, DOOFUS!!
The way I see the game evolving right now, mages deal with the astral (spirits, magical threats, etc.), adepts specialize for the physical plane, and cybers generalize for the physical plane. The things holding the cybers back is mainly having the money and the contacts to upgrade. The rules from M&M were an unnecessary impediment to this, because unless you run a very high-powered game, the cybers don't evolve as fast as the mages and adepts. That's why they start so bloody powerful.
SOTA 2064 only continued the specialization curve for the adept, while it made the true mundane howl -- unnecessarily. You're right, those who want to be mundanes are handicapped in this setting. They should be. While there's some things which can be replicated -- headset data readers in place of headware memory, a datajack and a display link -- cyberware lets the cybers deal with so much more, and magic lets the adepts be so much better. Mundanes get pooched -- get fucked.
I personally would like to see the trends continue. Mages should continue to become masters of the physical environment, working outside the world to shape what's within. Adepts work within the environment to shape themselves. Cybers work the environment itself, spreading their influence and ability to shape the path of the future. And mundanes? They exist within the environment, unable to affect it.
Whoa, that's deep.
| QUOTE (Deacon) |
| You know what? On second thought, scratch point 1. I'd like to see Mages and Mundanes more balanced, but in different ways. To hell with true mundanes. If they can't get cyberware, and don't have magic, let 'em suffer. Next time, (takes on a Jim Carrey-like voice) DON'T TAKE THE CYBER-REJECTION FLAW, DOOFUS!! |
HAHAHA
Testify!
I am with you 100%.
preach it, brother.
1) Switch to d10s. This would require tweaking all of the target numbers in the system, but it would allow for more gradiation between target numbers and make target number adjustments more uniform in the amount of actual difficulty they add or subtract from a roll. I don't much care for the current "roll tons of dice and throw away most of them as completely useless" central game mechanic.
2) Change the character creation system so that you can buy "package deals" of cyberware/decking programs/vehicles/magic libraries at a discount rather than having to hunt through the books for hours to spend your one-million neuyen. Once play starts things go back to how they are currently.
3) Give more reasons for selecting a weapon than its damage code. Extra built-in features, reliability, accuracy, anything to make the weapons more distinctive. Give them calibers too, so the ammo isn't all interchangable in weapon groups.
4) Bring back variable staging numbers in damage codes. Someone already mentioned this, and it makes a world of difference in weapon types.
5) Give the non-mages an equivelant of initiation that will keep them competative. Maybe the sammys can buy back lost essence in order to allow them to add more cyberware. Maybe the decker gets new features he can add to his programs. There could be many more uses for karma than just bigger attriutes and skills.
2) Change the character creation system so that you can buy "package deals" of cyberware/decking programs/vehicles/magic libraries at a discount rather than having to hunt through the books for hours to spend your one-million neuyen. Once play starts things go back to how they are currently.
3) Give more reasons for selecting a weapon than its damage code. Extra built-in features, reliability, accuracy, anything to make the weapons more distinctive. Give them calibers too, so the ammo isn't all interchangable in weapon groups.
4) Bring back variable staging numbers in damage codes. Someone already mentioned this, and it makes a world of difference in weapon types.
5) Give the non-mages an equivelant of initiation that will keep them competative. Maybe the sammys can buy back lost essence in order to allow them to add more cyberware. Maybe the decker gets new features he can add to his programs. There could be many more uses for karma than just bigger attriutes and skills.
No kidding. It's a little silly that some insist non-special people must somehow have an edge over special people.
Aside from the fact that it's illogical and contradicts the very definitions of the terms "mundane" and "special?"
But... but... they totally made non-cyber mundanes unplayable...
| QUOTE (Little Bill) |
| 1) Switch to d10s. This would require tweaking all of the target numbers in the system, but it would allow for more gradiation between target numbers and make target number adjustments more uniform in the amount of actual difficulty they add or subtract from a roll. I don't much care for the current "roll tons of dice and throw away most of them as completely useless" central game mechanic. |
Acutally, I think someone around here analyzed toe probabilities once, and you'd be surprised how little this actually changes things. Honestly the dice mechanic is just fine the way it is; certainly it's better than that *other* system. 
| QUOTE |
| 2) Change the character creation system so that you can buy "package deals" of cyberware/decking programs/vehicles/magic libraries at a discount rather than having to hunt through the books for hours to spend your one-million neuyen. Once play starts things go back to how they are currently. |
Oh HELL NO. The closest thing I can see to this is the creation of aerchtype characters for quick start play or something. Making "package deals" would only encourage people to take the packages over customizing the character themselves, resulting in an increase in character classism. It'd be a setp backwards.
| QUOTE |
| 5) Give the non-mages an equivelant of initiation that will keep them competative. Maybe the sammys can buy back lost essence in order to allow them to add more cyberware. Maybe the decker gets new features he can add to his programs. There could be many more uses for karma than just bigger attriutes and skills. |
Well, the decker just needs more uses for karma period. As it is they need to sideline as something else just to have stuff to spend karma on, after upgrading their Computer skill to 12+. But yes, it should be possible to buy back Essence somehow; maybe some sort of theraputic surgery, one that increases Essence but causes more Magic Loss, to keep mages from utilizing it as easily as they do Geasea now?
| QUOTE (Garland) |
| But... but... they totally made non-cyber mundanes unplayable... |
And?
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Well, the decker just needs more uses for karma period. As it is they need to sideline as something else just to have stuff to spend karma on, after upgrading their Computer skill to 12+. But yes, it should be possible to buy back Essence somehow; maybe some sort of theraputic surgery, one that increases Essence but causes more Magic Loss, to keep mages from utilizing it as easily as they do Geasea now? |
Everything about this paragraph just screams insane to me.
First, there's no such thing as too high a skill. Second, there are tons of Matrix-related skills a decker could get. Third, there's no such thing as too high a skill.
As for regrowing Essence--that is the worst idea for SR I've ever read. Period.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Screw the mundanes.
Hmm, my bits:
1. I second the "All magics as Metamagics" concept, which I put out myself as a houserule some time ago. Remove some of the onus of having a character's entire future of magical ability heavily determined at Chargen.
2. Make the chargen system and the in-play experience system the same. I don't say make the only chargen system bEcks, but remove the huge karma penalties for not min-maxing, as it is if I take a skill at six and a skill at 2, then upgrade the 2 skill later, I save loads of Karma off starting with a skill of 5 and a skill of 3 and upgrading the 5 skill. This annoys me, the same result should have a similar cost. Perhaps the massive math could be avoided if all costs were flat.
3. More ways for mundanes to protect themselves for mages. As things stand, the only way to stop a mage is often with another mage. This is particularly true for astral projection, a Shapeshifter or Ghoul who isn't awakened is a walking corpse because he has no defenses at all against astral threats, he can't run, he can't fight back, he's just dead as soon as one appears.
I'll save my next too for when I get some better ideas.
1. I second the "All magics as Metamagics" concept, which I put out myself as a houserule some time ago. Remove some of the onus of having a character's entire future of magical ability heavily determined at Chargen.
2. Make the chargen system and the in-play experience system the same. I don't say make the only chargen system bEcks, but remove the huge karma penalties for not min-maxing, as it is if I take a skill at six and a skill at 2, then upgrade the 2 skill later, I save loads of Karma off starting with a skill of 5 and a skill of 3 and upgrading the 5 skill. This annoys me, the same result should have a similar cost. Perhaps the massive math could be avoided if all costs were flat.
3. More ways for mundanes to protect themselves for mages. As things stand, the only way to stop a mage is often with another mage. This is particularly true for astral projection, a Shapeshifter or Ghoul who isn't awakened is a walking corpse because he has no defenses at all against astral threats, he can't run, he can't fight back, he's just dead as soon as one appears.
I'll save my next too for when I get some better ideas.
| QUOTE (Garland) |
| But... but... they totally made non-cyber mundanes unplayable... |
Last time I checked the genre was called Cyberpunk.
Not Punk.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Mar 15 2005, 03:53 PM) |
| a Shapeshifter or Ghoul who isn't awakened is a walking corpse because he has no defenses at all against astral threats, he can't run, he can't fight back, he's just dead as soon as one appears. |
Whoever said they can't fight back? They're dual-natured. It works both ways.
| QUOTE (M¥$T1C) | ||
Last time I checked the genre was called Cyberpunk. Not Punk. |
To be fair, his entire comment indicated he was being sarcastic.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| To be fair, his entire comment indicated he was being sarcastic. |
Thank you, sir.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| As for regrowing Essence--that is the worst idea for SR I've ever read. Period. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Screw the mundanes. |
Let's take this idea. I have hade my cyberware removed. It is not longer in my body.... Would it be unreasonable to say after some time, that the part of me that I lost, would now either be regained or replaced? Why wouldn't my essnce come back?
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||
First, there's no such thing as too high a skill. Second, there are tons of Matrix-related skills a decker could get. Third, there's no such thing as too high a skill. |
Er, actually there *is*. Keep in mind that unless you're playing a high-powered campaign you're not supposed to be able to increase any skill beyond twice the governing attribute. That means a skill of 18 for deckers. Additionally, you get a doubly-effective law of dimishing returns on high-level skill increases; not only is the cost increasing every level, but the benefits of getting one extra die when you have 11 already are not nearly so big as getting, for example, the Shielding metamagic.
Now, I *do* kinda agree that deckers have lots of knowledge skills to spend their hard-earned karma on, if you use all of those rules. It doesn't even come close to what an adept, a mage, a face, or even a souped up sammie can spend his karma on.
Now, I *do* kinda agree that deckers have lots of knowledge skills to spend their hard-earned karma on, if you use all of those rules. It doesn't even come close to what an adept, a mage, a face, or even a souped up sammie can spend his karma on.
| QUOTE |
| As for regrowing Essence--that is the worst idea for SR I've ever read. Period. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Screw the mundanes. |
I agree, screw the mundanes. *don't* screw everyone who doesn't want to start as Awakened though, otherwise we're just playing D&D in the 21st century with a different dice mechanic.
this is an argument for another thread. matter of fact, it's an argument that has other threads--several of 'em.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.