I am assuming shortly we will know what this will cost as they will have to start coordinating with retailors, etc... But I'll ask anyways:

• How much does it cost?
  
• How many pages?
  
• How many other source books can we expect to print at the same time?
  
• When can we expect an updated publishing schedule?

The more I know the better educated I am, and the better opinion I think I can offer.

I really want to know...

Will there be pdfs of the SR4 core books available or sale online? If so, will they become available at the same time as the hardcover books are released, or at least in a timely manner afterwards?

As I said in another post, I would like to see the .pdfs for sale and I would like a cd with the .pdf when I buy the hard copy. Baen Books have been doing some interesting things on this end for a while.

This is a really good idea. Make the pdf searchable and it'd be an even better one.

I'd like to see some of the core supplements merged together into single hardcover volumes (Cannon Companion + Man & Machine = "Mean Metal", Matrix + Rigger = "Technical Readout 2070" ("Men in Machines"? )). Street Magic obviously isn't such a good merger, but I think enough awakened stuff accumulated in the last edition to justify a big hardcover for itself. This would keep the "entrance fee" to the new edition lower, while upping quality and durability of the books.

I'd love to see PDFs. I'd buy a hardcover too if it combined all the base books together in one place.

Well, I could see FanPro putting the searchable PDF up at the same time as the hardcover reaching the stores, but it may hamstring the book sales and piss off the vendors. Including the PDF on CD may help keep them happier and get the books into the stores.

Realistically the new gamer is going to be exposed to the game by picking up a book in the store, so I'd like to see a CD with the book. Copy protected of course.

I don't think anyone knows what the cost will be until it goes to the printers/binders.

The way to get the most money from me would be to have the book and get the pdf at discount. I'm not going to pay full price for the pdf AND full price for the book, so I'd probably choose the pdf for now.

I do love the fact that the pdfs are available as they are, though. I'm far more willing to buy a CD or PDF from FanPro knowing I can mix and match their books on my own burnable CDs (I do Shadowrun at work, and so having it all available like that is really valuable to me.)

How about they charge more for the books make them all hardcover and you get a copy protected cd/dvd rom with the book on it in the back of the book.

Then you the player can use the cd/dvd rom or the hardcover your choice and you can print out copies of sections you feel you need extras of.

OK so lets see 3rd softcovers sell for 30 now so 4th hardcovers say 40 plus what another 10 to 20 for the cd/dvd rom not to bad for the main book.

Now suppliments 3rd's cost around 20 now so 4th's being hardcover 30 plus say 5 to 15 for the cd/dvd rom that comes with the book still not bad.

And no before you ask and or complain I do not have that kind of money to spend right now but I'll find a way to earn it so I can buy the books.

fifty to sixty bucks for the main book? ouch.

Not to mention it's just not real to expect any copy right protection is permanent these days-people will eventually crack the copyrigth protection, and those people who want to down load stuff will anyways. Somebody will scan it, it will be pirated.

It's all very well to say, just add $10 to the book price and include a CD with the PDF of the book on it, a lot of people don't like PDFs. Sure I'd buy it, but many would be put off by having to pay extra for something they won't use. No having the PDF for sale separately would be better. Maybe a unique code in each book which can be used to buy a PDF copy of the book at a discount would work.

Copy protection is an oxymoron unfortunately.

Once the work has been done, CD cost pennies to make. I have a friend in a band and it cost them $1.00 (per CD for 200 CDs) to get their CDs made and thousands to do the recording, and that was barley a bulk order. I'm pretty sure that all the layout and design for the new book is being done on a computer and can be converted to .pdf easily. The additional cost could be minimalized. Even if you don't want the .pdf the bonus it provides to the rest of the consumer, and the trend it would set in the gaming community would be worth $1-5.

Yep, that could be a problem. I'll leave it to the new marketing guy to decide if you'll get more new business with CDs included or if it will hurt their profits in the long run.

Are people who go looking for scans (or pdfs) of sourcebooks _really_ the kind of people who pay for a book they can't find a scan of?

I love SR, and I plan to have that core book in my hands as soon as humanly possible short of going to GenCon (I don't like being physically around gamers). But for $50, it should be twice as thick as SR3 and 4 times as useful.

There aren't a lot of hardcover games coming out now at a price point lower than $40, except for the truly large companies. Shadowrun Third Edition at $30 is one of the most inexpensive games on the market today.

A billion free lancers, and none can show up here? Does any actually have a link that gives us the price?

Say CD2.0 how close to genCon are you???? Heh.

They probably don't know how much it costs yet, or even how many pages. I'll guess $51.99 and 789 pages.

I have only gamed online. Ever. When I started gaming on SL over a decade ago, I gave up trying to deal with local gamers--something that became easier when I started buying books online and the local gaming stores dwindled from 3 to 1. I also made the decision, based mostly on the fact that I am antisocial to never, ever meet anyone I met online, talk to them on the phone, or divulge much of my identity to anyone online ever for any reason. SLers know my first name. Less than a handful know my last name. Few know what state I'm in, fewer still the city, most don't know what I do, and I've been even more intentionally vague here, and AFAIK not a single person knows what I look like. It helps me keep peace of mind. The moment any of that got out to, say, DS... *poof* I'm gone.

But at the same time, I don't like gamers, and I don't like the kind of gamers that cons attract. I don't socialize with people who are gamers, into sci-fi, fantasy, or basically anything that every other SR player I know at least has a passing interest in. Most people IRL don't know I game, and the few that don't ask too many questions. If I could go to GenCon to pick up my book, watch some people I know tourney in peace, and listen to any secrets of SR lectures in peace then I would. Unfortunately, by its very nature I have to deal with a metric ton of people who drive me fucking nuts whenever I have to deal with them IRL. No thanks.

Wow, and I thought I didn't much care for people...

Ouch

You have no idea.

Um, define affordable, Adam. Please.

'sides, i wouldn't think the freelancers are involved in the pricing at all. even Rob might not be directly involved in that decision, depending on how FanPro runs things and how their contract with the printers works.

D&D new books were quite affordable. Don't remember the exact price, but it didn't put too big a dent in my wallet.

Of course, AD&D was higher profile than SR is and so had a wider audience. Which means the possibility to do larger printing without too high a risk to get stuck with tons of book. Which drives down cost per unit. It was a gamble publishing so many books and lowering the cost but it seems to have paid off handsomely.

But the biggest success of D&D 3e was bringing back ex-player (like me, who was playing... well... SR at the time) and new players. And that was in large part due to an excellent marketing campaign in the months leading up to the release. It made me remember the things I liked about D&D and made me want to play again. And buy a few hundred dollars worth of their product.

Part of this campaign included the best art D&D had seen in a long time with a new look that was edgy and attractive. And there was a lot of teaser to get the crowd fired up. A lot. With all the tidbits that were out, I played a proto D&D 3e campaign that reached level 10 and wrapped up when the book finally came out! And I wasn't too off base, either. Finally, ultimate success came down to the fact that when 3e hit the shelves, it turned out to be a huge improvement over AD&D. The word of mouth from those who bought to those who hadn't did wonder for sales. Everyone but the most hardcore of the old timers agreed on that.

So here's to hoping the marketing department at FANPRO and the artists for the new project do a bang up job. To a lot of teasers. To a final product that is indeed a better system than the old one. And to low cost on the book and high volume on the sales. Cheers.

the WotC marketing machine is an amazing thing, especially in regards to their website--i hope FanPro takes a few pages from their book (which it seems they are, with the upcoming devblog). WotC puts the synopsis out months ahead of time, of course; everybody does that. but then, a month or so out, they start posting articles about the book. you'll see all of the interior art for that book posted on the website, a month out, along with an interview of someone involved in the book. two weeks or so out, you get an excerpt from the book--a big excerpt, with rules and everything. when a d20 book comes out, not only do you know whether or not you want it, you have a solid idea of what's in it.

that's a really, really big part of why d20 books do so well.

Actually, from what I recall, they almost took a loss on the core books for 3rd and 3.5 because the later books are where the money is.

They barely make any money at all on them, hence why the setting books are more expensive than the core books individually.

heh. that, too.

I'd like to point to the case of the new Ars Magica 5th Edition. They sold it (~256 pages, two-color printed, hardcover) for $25 for the first month as an introductionary price, and as far as has been mentioned went damn well with it. Of course this is mainly a course a rather unknown RPG would take - but it might turn out positive for Shadowrun, too. (I'm not talking about $25 per se, but about a temporary lower introductionary price as an incentive.)

I'm not asking Adam (Thanks by the way to you and Synner.) to define affordable is fair.

Without being rude -- comparing WotCs pricing decisions to any other RPG company is being pretty damned unfair to every other RPG company. WotC is anywhere from 60-75% of the RPG market themselves, depending on who you ask, and they're a company of hundreds owned by one of the largest toy companies in the world. They are on their own playing field, and they have to worry far less about competing with other RPG companies than those other companies do.

As for "affordable", I'm not directly involved in the pricing decisions, but I don't see the book being more than $40 for the hardcover, and I think $35 is more likely.

That's a fair point, but I have been curious what the effect would be if SR4 launched with an aggressive price structure (in this case, a relatively cheap core book— say, $20-25— while maintaining a level of professional design comparable or superior to DnD/D20) in order to break into the market currently heavily dominated by WotC. That, is of, course, more idle musing than any serious consideration of the RPG market.

Pardon me, the following is just IMO, but thats not how it works. As stated before, the marketing machine is unbeleivable with WotC. So, price is not everything, there a whole lot of rather cheap but nonetheless nice Books out there, and those take the big hit either.
See, the D20 license is so vast and in use, you can't scratch a dent in it, if you sell yourself out with ceap but high quality rpgs. What one needs is a large fan base promoting the game and actively playing it and thus geting more ppl. into playing the same game as you do. Thats about the only thing there is to it. Annyway, as said before, I also think that there is no sense in comparing the two companies, well, hopefully, not yet

So, Basically the pricing estimated by adam is seriously a happymaker in my book, because the price seems reasonabe, even if it turns out to be 45 Bucks, I'd still say the same.
If the book holds up to what the promotion is trying to sell.

regards
Daniel, @ work

I think, personally, $40 would be my limit for SR4.

I would happily pay ~$20 for a normal book. $25 would be hard to pull off.

$30 would just not be happening.

Personally, though, I could get by if the normal books were the same paperback as the previous editions. They kept up pretty well. Just work on binding quality.

(For the record: I'm in college. I spend no more than $40 on pizza, my one luxury (since SR isn't really stocked round here), in a semester. Please don't make me spend as much on gaming as I do on food.)

Well there's always the evil empire--I mean Amazon.

Last time I looked they were saying it'd ship within three months, which wasn't really a timeframe I felt comfortable with.

amazon isn't a company i feel comfortable dealing with, period. too much hassle.

Go with Stiggybaby's or, well, anyone else.

FanPro hopes to have a much better online store available before the summer.