Wow, a mature exchange. How refreshing. (Absolutely no sarcasm intended) I have been going over some other threads and can't believe how heated it can get over speculations.

I prefer the crossover aspects to continue at about the same pace. I think the minor horors we have been exposed to are OK for now, and a little power creep to get us ready for the bigger ones later is fine too.

Ummm, untill he kills everything, or twists it so we wish we were.

(I think that may have been a joke, if so, appologies.)

Verjigorm is something that GW, big D, and Alimas all left the area when he showed up. He is what the dragons tell their young to make them behave. Draconic boggie man. (shivers)

Correct. The mana-level has to become real high to make it possible for Big V to appear. In the last scourge he didn't appear at all which can bring us to the conclusion that the mana niveau at the 4th world wasn't high enough at all.

Hmm... hope you get the point. English is a foreign language for me.

I don't want it ended once and for all, but I'm not that fond of them either. The Horrors are something that should become an issue much later in the mana cycle, and for now, I'm happier if the bad guys in the shadows are all a more terrestrial evil.

Isn't there a theory in ED that Verijgorm didn't appear in the 4th world because he had some plan to come back badder than before in the 6th...

Not sure about that. The horrors that are all about subtle influence and not overlords of evil manifest on earth are appropriate for now, and a few ravening beasts from teh dragonheart storyline are OK. Outside of that I don;t think the universe is ready for them.

Can you immagine Artificer (right name? The trap horror) in the age of technology?

One of the things I've read in ED is that as the mana levels ebb and flow each awakening is not necessarily the same as the last, things can appear that are almost memories or dreams of things that went before.

Some of the descriptions of Deus in RAS sound a lot like the presence of Artificer to me.

Clarke's Axiom

I think the fusion or other compatibility of technology and magic is the important direction for surviving the next Scourge. I always got the impression that Dunkie and Harlequin both seemed to think that humanity's best chance lay in developing both. I think I see where they were taking the idea. Even in ED, magical types numbered a small percentage of the population (10%? I forget. Bookninjas, attack!). The ordinary folks of the world had no way to fight even the minor Horrors beyond raw courage and a yard of steel. Not to do down raw courage and a yard of steel, but it ain't going to keep your posterior safe from the Horrors.

Accelerate to the 6th world. The ordinary, non-magical folks now have raw courage and 900 rounds per minute Plus cyberware, artillery support, yadda yadda... Suddenly the lot of the non-Awakened has become a lot more palatable. It still isn't good enough yet - I think some of the more potent Horrors could resist non-magical stuff pretty well. But by the time they actually get here, who knows what we'll have? Laser artillery? Enchanted bullets that any Tom, Dick or Arnie can chuck in a chaingun and go to Horror Hamburger Heaven with? Headware capable of defeating mental control? Anti-Horror Mark implants?

Sky's the limit, gentlemen. Ante up.

How was your vacation?

Fan-tastic. I really needed the change of scenery and time away from the 'Net.

Actually, all signs point to the Blood Wood imploding nastily way before the end of the 4th World.

As I said, the Blood Wood is probably imploded. Even if it simply dissapeared when the mana level couldn't sustain it; it could not survive as it was in the current mana cycle: no thorn elves to feed it. It's highly likely that there's a massive background count in the area, possibly spectre and apparition phenomena, possibly even an alchera of an ancient forest. Hell, a new forest might have sprung up in the same place (which should be in the northern reaches of the Ukraine, by-the-by.)

Truth be told, Alamaise appears to be focusing his energies on disrupting his brother, Lofwyr, who has grown significantly in power, not on reclaiming the Wyrm Wood (though I doubt he's alone trying to recover artifacts from the elven ruins undoubtably there either.) The Blood Wood is doomed, as they say.

IIRC (and my memory is not great for things like this at the moment): Blood Wood was once known as Wyrm Wood.

If you change that to Wormwood (or something similar) and look around the Ukraine for similar placenames you find......Chernobyl, at least according a a large amount of talk going round on the net.

It seems that the Chernobyl is not, in fact, Ukrainian for Worm wood...but a lot of people thought it was - and still think so.
Link-age to none-too-thorough Google search.

If you were afraid of downturn hunting, don't you think it makes more sense to find a nice secure lair on the other side of the world rather than setting up a lair where everyone is?

Doesn't fly as Ryumyo and Lung remained in the much higher density east and Lofwyr remained in vasgothia. I'd say at least the high end greats probably laired someplace out of synch with reality rather than expose themselves too much. Besides Icewing and Mountainshadow aren't exactly the most hated of the 4th world dragons.

Doesn't mean that all dragons thought the exact same way.

But both are considered powerful and even Harlequin suggest Dunkelzhan must die. We only know that Ghostwalker was in control of Denver area long enough for the other dragons to consider it "his" territory.

Insect spirits are something other than Horrors.

And there's all kinds of blood magic. In ED, everyone uses blood magic. You can sacrifice your own blood, or you can use someone elses. The "bad" blood magic is what Horrors like, but only really in the way that they like other forms of torture and bloodshed.

BTW, welcome.

I've been given to understand that there are reasons, specifically having to do with Icewing's "role" concerning the Great Elves and their last conflict. It's my pet theory that certain IE's were transported to the North American continent (either to avoid being a pain in the ass, or part of a failed Theran colony)...which would explain Tir Tairngire being in the Pacific Northwest, the higher expression of elves in the area, etc.

Maybe. There are, and were, certainly asian dragonkin in both senses. So Eastern Dragons could have created any IEs, whether or not they chose to is a different matter. Keep in mind that even in Earthdawn times, matters were handled differently in the orient.

That said, there is a hint of an elven migration, likely with IEs among them, moving through India at some point from some place farther off.

If there are any asian IE's, they're keeping a relatively low profile.

Case in point.

Yes and no. Warping damage is technically caused by astral pollution and channelling such tainted energies through the metahuman body, and applies to certain forms of spellcasting.

Drain, on the other hand, covers mental or physical exhaustion or damage from a variety of magical operations.

Strain is a bit more complicated, but given some of the uses of death magic in SR, and the somewhat defunct method of Forced spellcasting, it seems to fulfill a more or less analogous role to drain in an optimal (i.e. no astral pollution) system; at least in certain operations.

Lindt: Nice to be back.

Insect spirits were called "invae" back in the day, and they were more of a precursor to the horrors. Completely unrelated except that they come in at a higher level of mana.

The interesting thing is that in ED, they didn't starts showing up (at least according to the main book) until about 1,000 yrs(-ish) before the Scourge.

I think their arrival in SR was a bit early and another result of the GGD.

As for as Ghostwalker, what I'm interested in is seeing if the so called Spirit of Denver he's supposed to be interested in has anything to do with Yuichotol, his old mate from way back when. She was killed by the Theran's behemoths, and her soul was placed into a Soul Stone, basically keeping her spirit around. If Icewing/Ghostwalker took that stone to his new lair (Denver), could be the spirit.

AH? THoughts?

I'm pretty sure they were already here, as that happens after the formation of - but not discovery about - the Universal Botherhood, IIRC.

I know I've got a copy of Euphoria hidden around someplace, so I'll see if it has a date in the prologue (a short fiction piece that took place some amount of time before the events of the module itself).

Pre-Scourge dates are more or less non-existent; it's known that the Burning Time happened before the Scourge, and that in the Aztlan annotations the invae are described as precursors to the Horrors. Given Harlequin's comments in Harlequin's Back and the general tone, it's hard to determine if the invae came in early or not. Could be.

General consensus is that the Spirit of Denver is not Yuichotol, based on little bits in Dragons of the Sixth World.

Not quite. Queen Euphoria and Universal Brotherhood both discuss the invae, or places/objects connected to their influence in South America, but it's impossible to determine when and where the first invae came through.

So.. just a professional interest then?

Any conjecture (or even better canon, although I doubt it) on what did happen to Yuichotol?

Heck, for that matter, while we're tangenting, any lightbearers carry over?

I know there's some conjecture that Hq was a questor (of Vestrias). I assume that's about the end of the passions involvement (Hq's Back?).

Now, are the Rites of Progression supposed to be rooted in Shoshara. I know you mentioned before that the file on Shoshara is not canon. Is the reference to the Rites included in it accurate though? If not by canon, in your opinion, based on other carry overs by the IE's in the Tir and where they're rumored to be from (or not so rumored in Hq's case)?

Sorry for all the questions.... but you asked!

More or less, yep.

Well, the Council was going to meet and talk about that after a certain grace period, it might be at least part of the reason Ghostwalker left. No idea where Ghost Scales is at the moment...possibly there isn't enough mana for her to manifest outside of her soul stone.

A number of people think Harlequin is one, due to his little dissapearing act with Ehran at the end of Harlequin; I personally remain unconvinced.

Vestrial, clown Vestrial, and yes that conjecture exists due to Voices From the Past.

The Rites first appeared in SR, in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook, and have no ED equivalent. I'm tempted to draw a link between them and certain Celtic or Amerind games, but there's no direct parallels I'm aware of. It may well just have been an invention to showcase how the Tir works (or doesn't, in this case.)