That's fine...

I don't like the idea of treating the Astral as the universal unconscious (influenced by consciousness, yes, obviously, consisting of consciousness...no), or the idea of spirits as manifestations of that unconcsious very much. I feel that it somewhat devalues self-aware, independent astral entities - including some that might not have any real relation to our unconscious.
The other problem I have with it is the interaction between the astral elements of reality and awareness/intelligence in Shadowrun cosmology (I'm referring to the implicit cosmology, not the explicit stuff that is all defined in various books...):

Basically, it is clear that the physical human brain is important to human intelligence etc - especially inasmuch as physical changes to that brain have the same kind of effects upon it as they do irl. SR science can do a lot more with the brain, but what it does essentially, is based in general physical phenomena (otherwise they would call it magic, not science...but let's stay away from Clarketech...).

But magic can alter the human body and brain physically, while making no explicit or implicit changes to the mind/awareness, other than those changes in perception that are enforced by the different form (eg certain Critters whose form you can take using the Shapechange spell don't have eyes etc).
The matter that makes up the body and brain is subjected to great changes...and any argument I can conceive of for why the spell does not affect the mind because of the physical changes effected upon the brain falls back upon the idea that the spell somehow sustains the intelligence of the spell subject astrally.

This in turn implies that consciousness itself is an essentially astral phenomenon (consider astral projection, possession...and what happens to an initiate with possession who tries to possess a cyberzombie).
All of these metaphysics also made more sense with the SR2 explanation of essence loss being caused by the degree to which cyberware etc caused the body to deviate from it's "Astral template". Hence the use of cybermancy to persuade your spirit to hang around after excessive cyber-implantation causes your aura (=spirit?) to divorce itself from your body...

(Sorry, I can't remember my sources. I suspect you'll find the information I'm referencing scattered throughout the Grimoire, SSC, Awakenings, Cybertechnology etc. Otherwise, I've just pulled it from my nether regions. Wash your hands. )

Thus, if the astral plane is essentially a manifestation of the collective unconscious...then its existence is quite uncomfortably recursive, as the collective unconscious requires both astral and physical components to exist.

I'm not sure how clear that all is...

[/Metaphysical rambling]

Oldest otaku=Leonardo. (and he didnt even havea datajack!) (and he was awakened!)

Where in canon does it state, or even infer that Leo is an Otaku?

It's in one of the novels, don't remember which one and haven't read it (generally not being a fan of the novels), but there is a reference to it on AH's site.

Ah right. He possesses the Channels of an Otaku, but that doesn't mean he actually is one, with all the association with the Deep Resonance/Dissonance, etc. He also possesses magic on a scale unequaled by any non-IE, and even then his magical abilities with tech is singular. I rather think his 'Channels' are a rersult of his magic, and are only similar in scope to Otaku Channels.

Yea, I'd been generally excluding him from my thinking on otaku because he is an IE and therefor not subject to rules the way everyone else is. Who knows how the rules and nature of the otaku effect him, or if he just came up with some way to imitate their abilities.

I think that the fact that he can use magic to simulate channels would point to the fact that channels are indeed at least partialy magical in nature.

You can also use magic to simulate massive reconstructive surgery, does that mean that all doctors are specialty adepts of a new and strange path? You can also use magic to create ice, does that make cold weather magical because it also creates ice?

Magic can simulate some purely mundane things and tasks, much as technology can simulate some spells. That does not create an integration, just a similarity.

i tend to exclude him from my thinking, pretty much period.

Personnally, I think every single Otaku is created by an AI and if there ever needs to be a definitive answer IMC it will be that.

I would tend to agree that all otaku are created by an AI, as I tend to believe the Resonance and Dissonance are AI, although probably not intentionally created AI. I would not include focusing of magical energies as a potential, mostly due to the whole unaffected by essence factor. I can accept and actually like the concept of becoming otaku subverting any magical potential that was there, but not that the otaku abilities are in anyway magical in and of themselves. The scene in the novels you described is exactly the reason I don't really like the novels: they do all sorts of crazy crap that is not possible and frequently directly contradicts the game books.

I use the term AI to describe the Resonance simply because no other term I can think of applies. I don't consider it to be the same class of being as the other AI, but all of it's known characteristics fit under the definition of AI. It is by all indication a willed entity that exists in the matrix. There is no indication it exists outside the matrix. Also, every indication is that the Deep Resonance experienced by technoshamans and cyberadepts is one thing just accessed in different ways. To me this puts it under the very large umbrella of AI. It seems significantly more powerful than any of the AI we know of, so it is likely fundamentally different in some way. My theory is that both the Resonance and Dissonance are emergent properties of the Matrix, consciousnesses that arose from the mass streams of information flow around the world. That consciousness still falls under my definition of AI though, as it is emergent from a human created system.

Oh, I'm not bothered by the precedent in terms of technology...
Just that I'm wondering if it will ever be developed in game...and where it will go if it is
It leaves you with the possibility of people uploading skills directly to the brain, rather like the "Training" in the Matrix films... "I know kung fu", as I said earlier.
Ever wonder just how many Otaku get kidnapped off the street and vivisected?
(or what Doc Halberstam would do to get his hands on one???)


Actually, I think it's kind of cool.

honestly, i assume he already has.

er, well, the paragraph you were quoting was specifically talking about the question of whether or not otaku are magical. my bad.