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Smiley
Rather than waste everyone's time with this, I Googled, I KaZaA'ed, I sold my little brother's immortal soul to my neighbor, but to no avail.
I've been toying with a character based on Reinhardt from Blade 2's Bloodpack and I'm trying to find pictured of those nifty pistols he has with the blade attachments. Does anyone have any information? Perhaps someone would like to prove their Google-fu is superior to mine? I'm totally tortured here.

And while I'm at it, what kind of damage code would you give the blades?
Critias
The google-fu is strong in this one.

Hopefully that link works. If those are the guns you're referring to (and I can't think of any other ones), I'd just call them knives. The benefit of not having to waste actions drawing, etc, a new weapon in order to use them in melee means you can live with a little bit lower damage code than they could be.
Smiley
I bow to your Fu. Thank you. That was bugging the hell out of me.
toturi
Take it to be an underbarrel bayonet attachment with damage code of bayonet (house rule, of course).
Arethusa
Which is more useful, since, if it's a knife, you'll take your opponent down faster just by hitting him with the gun. Makes sense, huh?

As for the gun, it's just a heavily riced out Beretta 92. Compensator, recut slide, mag extension, blade thing, etc. Basic Hollywood gun silliness.
Critias
The problem with that is that a bayonet's assumed to be on the end of a big honkin' rifle that you're using both hands to slash/stab/swing/attack with. That's just a wierd-bladed little thingie slapped under a pistol, that you can only really do one sort of swing with, etc, etc. I think "knife damage, Str(L)" is plenty.
Arethusa
At which point the damage code for using a pistol as an improvised club makes that far more effective.
Smiley
Plus Dikote, of course. biggrin.gif

[EDIT] Clubbing someone with a pistol just doesn't have as much style.
Critias
QUOTE
At which point the damage code for using a pistol as an improvised club makes that far more effective.


Right, I get that. The damage code thing. I understand that Str(L) is less than Str(M)(stun) that a pistol normally does, or whatever. Str(L) is also likely to be less than the damage you'd do by shooting someone, though, which has the added benefit of not being a contested roll.

But it's a different skill (edged weapons vs clubs), it's lethal damage instead of stun, etc, etc. It's the same reason someone would use a knife instead of a punch, even though a punch does more damage. I understand that in terms of raw brutal effectiveness, giving the magical-underbarrel pistol bayonet a damage code the same as a knife is less potent than someone just pistol whipping their enemy into submission.

I also understand that the main reason someone would want these dumb knives under a pistol is raw "cool factor," as warped by Hollywood. So let them have it, but don't make it overwhelmingly potent by giving the thing a Str+2(M) damage code (which is, I believe, what a bayonet does). Does it make sense that a little blade like that under a handgun would do as much damage as a bayonet mounted on the end of a weapon SR considers as being so cumbersome it uses pole arms to attack with?
Arethusa
QUOTE (Critias)
But it's a different skill (edged weapons vs clubs), it's lethal damage instead of stun, etc, etc. It's the same reason someone would use a knife instead of a punch, even though a punch does more damage.

If lethal's what you want, just beat 'em unconscious with the pistol and slit their throats afterwards.

Yeah, I'm not saying they should do (Str + 2)M or be governed by the silliness of the bayonet rules, but it's not really much more sensible to treat them as canon knives, either.
Critias
QUOTE
...but it's not really much more sensible to treat them as canon knives, either.


Why not? I mean, they look like a knife, don't they? If not a knife, then what, and why?
Arethusa
Because then you:
  1. run directly into one of the stupidest melee issues in canon, which is knives being useless in combat compared to your far more effective fists; if you want him dead, you just knock him out first and then slit his throat.
  2. still have a (Str + 1)M club in your hand, as I recall, which is even better than the worthless knife. Rip off that knife and beat him senseless before he notices none of this making sense.
Critias
You're assuming the person that wants blades on their guns has the Clubs skill, not the Edged Weapons skill. I'm assuming the opposite.

And, again, if not "knives" for base damage (and it seems you have more issue with the canon knife base damage rating, not the suggestion that the knife blades pictured do knife damage, am I right?) -- then what? You yourself agreed bayonet damage was too much, but knife damage is (apparently) too little. What would you suggest?
Arethusa
Making knives (more sensibly) (Str+1)L (or at least the big blades on the pistols, as the standard knife is described a $10 street piece of crap) and melee (Str)L Stun solves lots of problems. Ignoring the CC's silly bayonet rules fixes the rest.
Fresno Bob
Well, the Cougar Fineblade is a knife thats as good as your fists.
Arethusa
The Cougar Fineblade does almost as much damage as a sword and is basically just a standard knife run through the Dikoting process.
Fresno Bob
Yeah, well...

*Ninja vanish!*
Edward
There is one reason in mechanics to use it with knife damage.

You don’t want to be using unarmed because that means dropping your guns (lets ignore the kick attack option) and you have no skill in clubs and 6 dice in edged weapons because you also liked blade’s sword.

I would say is more effective than a knife maybe S+1 L although the unconventional shape could be a problem,

There is a second reason to do so, you dicoated the fragers.

If you insist on using bayonet rules at least have the sense to take away the reach.

Edward
Dave
I just happen to have this site bookmarked...

Movie Weapons

The firearms for Blade 2 are near the top of the list and I'm sure you can find the rest of the links useful.
The Jopp
Let the "gunblade" have the polearm damage code and strength bonus but simply remove the reach modifier that a character gets for having a RIFLE with a bayonet instead. The damage can be explained by the character having the blade attached to a 2-4 kilogram weight (the pistol) and thus increasing the weight when stabbing down with the blade edge.
DarkShade
getting maybe a little offtopic here, but the `hollywood silliness`with guns doesnt mean noone would try those in real life.. 2 years ago visiting a museum I saw real life bladeguns and even a gun embedded in the middle of an odd angular shield, all real weapons created and used sometime around the 18th century..

DS
wagnern
as far as damage goes, there is an weapon modification in the C.C. that increases the damage done by the pistol in hand to hand combat (it's called something like combat hardening or the such) These gunblades could be considered a form of this modification, perhaps letting you use your edged weapons skill instead of your club skill.
Arethusa
No. Hardening is intended to represent a heavy, hard weapon. It's the difference between beating the shit out of someone with an M1 Garand v. a G36. It has nothing to do with edged weapons.
Foreigner
Anyone feel free to jump in, because I'm not certain about this.

Aren't there martial arts styles that emphasize the use of close-contact weapons--not just swords and polearms, but also knives and such?

If not, I'd think that a variant of an existing style would work--particularly one of the more acrobatic styles.

Also, while I COULD be mistaken, I don't think that the pistol in that photo started life as a Beretta Model 92.

I think it's an AMT (Arcadia Machine and Tool) Automag III or IV.

Have a look:

AMT Automag III (.30 M-1 Carbine);

or

AMT Automag IV (.45 Winchester Magnum).

Also, I think that the Property Master (or whoever) drew inspiration from this:

Elgin Cutlass Pistol.

Edit: Arethusa--Try the links now. They should work. (Crosses fingers. nyahnyah.gif )

Edit #2: A.E.: Thanks. The photograph I saw earlier was rather confusing. I thought that the pistol I was looking at had a single-action trigger. Also, the extended slide and the grip panels more resembled those of the two Automag models--at least to me.

Mea Culpa. Mea Maxima Culpa.

--Foreigner
Arethusa
Your links don't work. That pistol, however, is definitely a Beretta 92, modified with drop in unit for full auto fire and some crap glued to the slide.

I don't know why you think it's an Automag. It doesn't look anything like one.
Austere Emancipator
From the MovieGuns page linked earlier by Dave:
QUOTE (http://www.longmountain.com/movieguns/Blade2)
"Rheinhardt's" gun, Beretta 92F- this was Stallone's gun in "Judge Dredd" and it was modified for Blade II. Full auto converted Beretta serial #F52880Z & #D49480Z. Kanji markings on rail say "Blade II", Kanji markings on blade say "Made by Carl". Holster guide on blade slide- these were right and left side guns one for each hand. Grips are resin over white painted standard grips. Barrel blanked with plug in the barrel weight. Magazine mod is from "Judge Dredd". This was originally for Wesley Snipes, but it was decided it was too heavy for his character. Holster is modeled by Dr. Philip H. Dater.
[Picture]

The links work for me, but the gun is still definitely a modified Beretta M92.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Arethusa)
The Cougar Fineblade does almost as much damage as a sword and is basically just a standard knife run through the Dikoting process.

Except that you can still dikote it... biggrin.gif

God i love Fine Blades..
Tarantula
QUOTE (Foreigner)
Anyone feel free to jump in, because I'm not certain about this.

Aren't there martial arts styles that emphasize the use of close-contact weapons--not just swords and polearms, but also knives and such?

--Foreigner

Indeed there are. Arnis De Mano(Escrima, Kali). Kali is the one in CC that is definately one of these arts. Ninjitsu is also quite focused on in close weaponry, as well as more eccentric ones. Pentjak-Silat is also, and the flavor text in CC even specifically states that the favored weapon is a kris (short wavy-bladed knife).

Just a note, a kris while being a small wavy knife, does Str(M) damage.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Mar 22 2005, 10:34 AM)
The Cougar Fineblade does almost as much damage as a sword and is basically just a standard knife run through the Dikoting process.

Except that you can still dikote it... biggrin.gif

God i love Fine Blades..

A lot of GMs won't let you, because it makes even less sense than dikoting does already, and gives you a knife that does as much damage as a polearm.
Arethusa
That kris damage code is a ridiculous aberration. It only does (Str)M damage because the guy writing the CC did so while popping crack rocks and just really though that it looked cool.

Also, a kris is not necessarily short.
Smiley
QUOTE (Arethusa)
That kris damage code is a ridiculous aberration. It only does (Str)M damage because the guy writing the CC did so while popping crack rocks and just really though that it looked cool.

Then perhaps you should write the next Shadowrun update, since you're obviously THE expert. I mean, you 're speaking with such distain for the current developers that I must assume that you're much, much better than them.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
No. Hardening is intended to represent a heavy, hard weapon. It's the difference between beating the shit out of someone with an M1 Garand v. a G36. It has nothing to do with edged weapons.


He said that it COULD be considered a form of combat hardening, perhaps letting one use the edged weapons skill instead of clubs. I happen to agree. It looks to me that combat hardening is designed to make a firearm a bit more lethal, and attaching a couple of nasty-looking dikoted blades definitely fits into that category. If you don't want to allow it, that's totally cool. Your posts just come off as if you're saying, "I have the only right answer and you're all morons for disagreeing."
Tarantula
Krises don't have to be short. But a 'kris' as an item in shadowrun is a short wavy knife. It has no reach modifier, and is thusly a knife.
Spetulhu
What use could you actually get out of those Blade guns? You can't stab with them, and they look really awkward for cutting. The way you'll be holding them I'd expect you must use an extra hand to add pressure. And if you have to use your other hand to help you can as well draw a real knife instead.

People might find it a bit harder to disarm you, of course. Unless they use the ever-cool katana for cutting off your hands. nyahnyah.gif
DrJest
Actually, a kris is simply a bladed weapon with a particular style of blade smile.gif It can vary from size of a (large) knife (such as the famous Taming Sari, shown here - the bloke holding it was my Silat teacher before I had to move) up to the size of a sword, although certainly shorter kris were more common. Traditionally, the kris was made from meteoric iron and was attributed with magical powers - eg rattling in the sheath to warn of danger or even leaping from the sheath to attack an enemy.
Tarantula
DrJest, I didn't say that a real kris couldn't be long. By defition, all it is is the wavy blade style that makes something a kris. You could make claymore krises, and I've even seen them.

Regardless, as far as ShadowRun is concerned, a 'kris' is a short weapon because it offers no reach bonus.
Smiley
QUOTE (Spetulhu)
You can't stab with them, and they look really awkward for cutting. The way you'll be holding them I'd expect you must use an extra hand to add pressure. And if you have to use your other hand to help you can as well draw a real knife instead.

Hence the lower damage code.
Edward
A Kris may not be big enough to gain a reach bonus but it is certainly bigger than anything I would call a knife. The 2 Kris I own have 14 and 15 inch blades, these are typical of the Javanese Kris I understand that they where mostly ceremonial however.

The action I envision for the blade II style gun blades is a chopping motion, this is not likely to be the most efficient action with the blade in that position (almost like a punching dagger but you cant punch) but it has better weight behind it so I would expect the damage to be close to that of a knife.

Edward
Critias
QUOTE (Smiley)
He said that it COULD be considered a form of combat hardening, perhaps letting one use the edged weapons skill instead of clubs. I happen to agree. It looks to me that combat hardening is designed to make a firearm a bit more lethal, and attaching a couple of nasty-looking dikoted blades definitely fits into that category.

Combat hardening, as far as I've ever considered it, is just stuff like adding weight, and maybe some nice clubby bits that you're encouraged to use when bopping people. It gives a +1 power to normal melee (club) attacks with the weapon.

Something like giant nasty dikoted blades would, I think, do more than give you a +1 power to the stun damage a weapon does.

I guess if you wanted you could call it some zany version of combat hardening that turns the damage to lethal instead -- but then you end up with a pistol-knife-thingy that does the same damage as a sword. And you end up with something that's absolutely nothing like combat hardening, except for the fact it relates to a gun, and is a modification for a gun, and is used in melee combat.
Arethusa
And that's all combat hardening can be, as it is really pretty clear that it has nothing to do with adding blades or other such silliness to your pistol. It's just a heavier, harder weapon that is marginally more effective in melee— the aforementioned difference between a WW2 era rifle and a modern, mostly polymer rifle.

After all, it's combat hardening, not combat sharpening, not combat cutlery attachments, or anything else.

Smiley, you're a witless prat. I realize you like Shadowrun. Really, we get it. But when someone criticizes Shadowrun or one of its constituent parts for being poorly designed— which, holy shit, isn't exactly new— and all you can respond with is tantrums and puerile paroxysms, I think most of us would really prefer you didn't waste our time.
Edward
Am I the only one that saw Smiley’s suggestion as being “something similar in concept to melee hardening but using a blade, without actually being the design option melee hardening but resulting in a similar, although lethal, damage code?”

It sounds like as valid an option as anybody has suggested, if not worded as clearly as it might have been.

If I misconstrued your meaning Smiley, I apologies.

Edward
Smiley
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Smiley, you're a witless prat. I realize you like Shadowrun. Really, we get it. But when someone criticizes Shadowrun or one of its constituent parts for being poorly designed— which, holy shit, isn't exactly new— and all you can respond with is tantrums and puerile paroxysms, I think most of us would really prefer you didn't waste our time.

Maybe your definition of tantrum is different than mine. You seem to be the one that's all worked up.
DrJest
QUOTE (Tarantula)
DrJest, I didn't say that a real kris couldn't be long. By defition, all it is is the wavy blade style that makes something a kris. You could make claymore krises, and I've even seen them.

Regardless, as far as ShadowRun is concerned, a 'kris' is a short weapon because it offers no reach bonus.

I take your point. I should have added that I was speculating the Str(M) damage code for the Kris might have come from a number of sources, the most likely being that the "average" kris (if there is any such thing) is something a little over a foot in length (Hang Tuah, the original owner of the Taming Sari I linked to earlier, is often described as a swordsman). If you compare it to the Cougar Fineblades, both of which have M damage codes with no reach (and the short blade is cheaper than a kris), it's not unreasonable.

All of which I would have added had I not been falling asleep at the keyboard biggrin.gif
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