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Dawnshadow
Alright.. theoretical question:

Physical Mage (shaman in this case), with improved reflexes 2, quickness 9..

What happens when he summons a force 4 sky spirit with movement and has it apply that power to him? He goes 4 times as fast, but that means he's walking faster then he used to run.. do the TN's for shooting him change? And what happens when he runs? I did the math, he's going at 130 kph.. so 80 miles per hour. Can he even be shot at, going that fast?

Now.. the question that makes me wonder if this is just too much..

With his reaction and initiative dice, he will on average have 3 phases.. and since running gives no melee modifiers, could he not just run 36m in one phase, slaughter someone in melee, and then next phase run and do the same to someone else, on the other side of the battleground?

Just to make the applications of this a little more clear.. his fellow runners are tough as you can imagine, and have staying power a little bit more like tanks then humans. The type of situation I'm describing would be the other two holding a position, forcing the opposition to direct their attention there, while the physical mage zips around like a lightning bolt, cutting people down from behind whenever they get caught in a position they can't direct massive firepower against him.
DocMortand
That's nothing. Get Levitate at power 12 - NOW you're moving FAST.

The question is a good one, and I await the book ninjas. smile.gif
mfb
no further penalty. running is running and walking is walking, even if you're moving faster than most motorcycles.
Spetulhu
Can you shoot at a car going 80 mph? Of course you can. The mage is smaller than a vehicle, but plainly visible.

Besides, if he doesn't manage to put down the people he engages in melee they can hit him, can't they? No modifiers for running, you said. Once his combat pool is empty it will start hurting.
Dawnshadow
F12 Levitate.. hmm.. definately fast. The drain would kill him though... 8M physical? and +2 TNs to everything?

Spetulhu... no combat pool wouldn't make much of a difference. I'm not kidding when I say this physical mage is built for slaughtering people in melee... skill 8, ambidexterity(8 point), force 3 weapon focus. He throws 15 dice before combat pool. The only reason this particular tactic is coming around is because he doesn't have the staying power the others do.
DocMortand
QUOTE (Dawnshadow @ Mar 26 2005, 12:26 PM)
F12 Levitate.. hmm.. definately fast. The drain would kill him though... 8M physical? and +2 TNs to everything?

Not if he/she had initiated some and had Magic at 12...

Besides, if you really need to get away, 8M physical is a small price to pay.
Dawnshadow
Physical Mage (magician's way adept.. I just hate calling it that, too much into the character, who calls himself a shaman) Docmortand... magic power 4, power focus (force 2). 4th grade initiate already.

Although getting away, you're right, nothing would beat it. Just so hard to learn it.. I'd be spending karma like mad on the rerolls
Fortune
You don't need Force 12 Levitate when you have a Magic of 12. The speed is Force x Magic, so your going pretty good just with it at Force 6. Add in the Movement Power on top of that for quick flying goodness.
Wireknight
Hey, now. You never know when you'll need to engage in international supersonic flight with Levitate. My most powerful magician character had Levitate at Force 12, Magic of 20, and usually employed a Force 10 wind spirit's Movement ability for added abomination. Helped him zip between various island nations in the South Pacific in time to cause problems for people operating in concert in both Australia and Indonesia.
SpasticTeapot
Even without PhysAd abilities, all you need to do is drop a satchel charge on an opponent's car, or empty a box of grenades on your opponent's position. They'll never see it coming.
Or, if you're a troll, have the rigger attach a drone interface to a gyro-mount. Mount a HMG on the gyro-mount. Run around the opponents very, very fast, and watch them become swiss cheese.
This also raises some interesting questions as to what you can do while running at 130kph. For example, you can jump out of a car at highway speeds....and just keep on going. You could leave your vehicle during a chase, and zip behind your opponents to slash their tires. And, of course, you would'nt need a vehicle to get to meets.
Eyeless Blond
This is bringing DBZ uncomfortably to mind. nyahnyah.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
This is bringing DBZ uncomfortably to mind. nyahnyah.gif

No, for that everything has to be geased to either "strike a pose flexing muscles" or "shout incoherently" with some spells geased to "shout the custom name for the spell."
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 26 2005, 04:26 PM)
This is bringing DBZ uncomfortably to mind. nyahnyah.gif

No, for that everything has to be geased to either "strike a pose flexing muscles" or "shout incoherently" with some spells geased to "shout the custom name for the spell."

Wherever there are physical mages with force 12 levitate spells speeding between islands in the Pacific without being torn apart by wind drag, the rest will follow. nyahnyah.gif
toturi
And the phy-mage can call himself the Flash. biggrin.gif
Sharaloth
hmmm. A custom barrier spell, designed to defeat wind reisistance, shore up bone and muscle strength, something like that. You could get up to significant speeds without tearing the flesh from your bones. Actually, it'd probably take a series of high-powered spells, but with the right magical equipment you could, indeed break the sound barrier without considerable injury.

A better move would be a high-force levitate and a high-force spirit with the movement power, plus a version of the Physical Barrier spell that is airtight in a sphere shape. You could hit extremely high velocities and not have to worry about leaving your skin behind. A spell to remove the effects of G-forces would also be a good investment for those who wish to do high-speed aerial manouvers.
DrJest
QUOTE
My most powerful magician character had Levitate at Force 12, Magic of 20,


You had a magic of WHAT?! My God, I played my mage for three years and never got over grade 6.
Eyeless Blond
I'm more curious how he managed to learn the Force 12 spell. You'd have to throw, what, 1296 dice at that TN to get one success?
Sharaloth
Nah, just have lots and lots o' karma... and a few astral quests... and maybe some elemental helpers.
Fortune
Force 12 Astral Quests are nothing to sneeze at.

That being said, I've seen TN's of 24 acheived relatively often.
Rory Blackhand
Wouldn't casting in a lodge help as well? No books with me atm.
fistandantilus4.0
totem modifiers. manipulation right?

ummm... of the top of my head, siren and bat give modifiers for maipulation spells
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
Alright.. theoretical question:

Physical Mage (shaman in this case), with improved reflexes 2, quickness 9..

Hmm i smell a horse shaman
Foreigner
This thread reminds me of a piece of online fiction I read recently.

The main character was a half-demon--her mother was human, Daddy was "Gothmog, the Demon Lord of Lust and Perversion".

(For you Tolkien fans out there--I am aware that "Gothmog" was also the name of a Balrog chieftain in The Silmarillion.)

Anyway, in addition to some rather interesting demonic abilities--she can regenerate from any wound, even those that would kill a normal human (up to and including complete dismemberment, although the time necessary for her body to rebuild itself increases as the severity of the injury increases), as well as being able to influence the passionate emotions of others (i.e, love & lust), she has what the author refers to as a "time dilation" ability--she can operate outside the normal boundaries of space and time, covering vast distances in mere moments (not to mention neatly circumventing the laws of physics--she doesn't create a sonic boom; also, there's no need to worry about suffocation-- due to her half-demonic nature, she doesn't need to breathe).

Anyway, she's fast enough to dodge a bullet--or shove another person out of the way--AFTER the gun has been fired.

The only limitation seems to be upon her clothing--every time she moves that fast, atmospheric friction literally burns the clothing off of her body. The burns are not a problem because of her regenerative abilities, but the results can be embarassing while out in public--not to mention that, because of her nature, she has a SEVERE allergy to sunlight.

Also, she can't eat what humans consider "normal food" (she has no stomach, or other internal organs)--she sustains herself by draining the life force from living things--it doesn't matter whether they're plants, animals, or people.

--Foreigner
mfb
QUOTE (Wireknight)
My most powerful magician character had Levitate at Force 12, Magic of 20...

never believe anything wk says. i know for a fact that his most powerful mage's Magic is not 20 at all. it's much, much higher--20 is just the number of points he's put into the Magic Power adept ability.
Sharaloth
Okay, I run a rediculously high-power campaign, and that's even beyond MY sense of crazy. Force 12 spells? sure, whatever, everybody and their mother has those. Effective Magic 20 on a magician Adept? You've gotta be f***ing kidding me.
Dawnshadow
but but but.. I don't want effective magic 20, I want normal magic 20! And the ability to buy power points for 5 karma each! And complete immunity to magic loss from deadly damage!

(My gods, I'm getting tired of shovelling this drek.. ok.. returning to something serious..)

Shoot. The thread got highjacked from tactical use of movement power on an already fast-moving melee fighter to DBZ-esque flying persons.

Someone throwing 15 melee dice before combat pool, typically 3 actions a turn, with walking at 36 m/turn, running at 108 m/turn. Do the penalties for shooting stay the same as the ordinary 6-9 m/turn walking, 18-36 m/turn running? Should they stay that way? Is it worth of surprise tests when he clears the entire fighting area and attacks in one phase?
Eyeless Blond
For balance reasons it probably should. Remember that most of the penalty for walking/running isn't so much the movement itself as the random-ish movement you get from ducking and weaving, bobbing up and down, etc. Tracking a target that's moving in a straight line is comparatively simple, I'd say.
Vuron
Heh this is starting to resemble WoD threads on RPG.net or the WW boards in which someone says they have a 4th generation methuselah true brujah or thier DnD campaign in which they routinely slaughter gods. While it might fit thier game it strays quite a bit from most people's conception of what's possible for PCs in the game as to almost useless to talk about in mixed company.

Simply put to most people the difficulties of having mages with supersonic flight capabilities is not going to enter into thier gameplay.
Edward
A starting mage can cast force 6 fly with a magic of 7 (power focus 1) and with a little luck have a force 9 spirit use the movement power on him. That is a speed of 378 m/ct or 126m/s or 453.6Km/h

I donít know if that beats the speed of sound but it is dammed fast and something starting SR characters are capable of. Not something that is comparable to somebody saying how there D&D characters regularly defeat gods. More comparable to a discussion of how a first level party defeated 20 kobolds by using tower shields and coordinated actions.

Edward
mfb
what Edward said. you don't need to have 20 Magic Power to break the sound barrier (though it helps).
hahnsoo
Try a starting Magician's Way Adept who is a Horse Shaman and picks up Movement as a Metamagic power, who also has 6 points of Sprinting, 6 points of Improved Athletics, 6 points of Iron Lungs (long distance running), and max out his quickness (spells or some other method). For extra cheese, give him some cyberskates (x6 running multiplier).

I was fooling around with the NSRCG one day, and I think I managed to make a starting character with a combination of Cyberware and Bioware and the above Adept powers that skated just shy of the speed of sound who could maintain that speed for about 30 minutes without collapsing. He would probably need a sustained Barrier spell (bugs on the windshield) and Oxygenate spell to maintain that speed, of course.
Fortune
QUOTE (Edward)
A starting mage can cast force 6 fly with a magic of 7 (power focus 1) ...

In SR3, a Power Focus only adds to your Magic Rating to determine whether Drain is Physical or Stun, and determining the maximum Force of any summoned Spirits. It does not add to Magic to determine spell effects.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Try a starting Magician's Way Adept who is a Horse Shaman and picks up Movement as a Metamagic power, who also has 6 points of Sprinting, 6 points of Improved Athletics, 6 points of Iron Lungs (long distance running), and max out his quickness (spells or some other method). For extra cheese, give him some cyberskates (x6 running multiplier).

I was fooling around with the NSRCG one day, and I think I managed to make a starting character with a combination of Cyberware and Bioware and the above Adept powers that skated just shy of the speed of sound who could maintain that speed for about 30 minutes without collapsing. He would probably need a sustained Barrier spell (bugs on the windshield) and Oxygenate spell to maintain that speed, of course.

Darn, you beat me to the punch. Oh well.
As long as we've established methods for PhysAds to outrun any other land vehicle in existence, we might want to determine exactly what happens when he/she breaks the sound barrier. Due to some interesting properties of aerodynamics, your drag is much lower at supersonic speeds, making the difference in energy required between 1,100 and 1,200 kph equivalent to the amount of energy needed to go from 1,080 to 1,100.
(1,100 kph is approximately the speed of sound, although this is not an accurate figure and varies with the air pressure). In fact, you will likely accellerate a great deal once you've breached the sound barrier without any additional effort.
Of course, this leads the problem of sonic booms. Although the character may be able to withstand a sonic boom (shield+the fact it's originating on you=low force), all the glass in a kilometer around will shatter instantly. Anyone in the close vicinity will be rendered deaf instantly, not to mention be thrown a few yards in the process. In fact, at short range the impact is high enough to do Stun damage equal to 15( four levels above Deadly; you're dead if you don't resist damage), with the power decrasing by 1 for every 5 meters away from it you are. This is enough to reduce troll street-sammys to nearly-dead lumps, and blast a low-toughness decker off the face of the planet. It will also leave a nice big crater.(Although this would, in theory, do even more damage if the 'runner managed to hit someone at such an absurdly high speed, the end result would leave you with something like 342(five categories above Deadly), making it a moot point that you're dead without a Hand of God or orbital cow sent to save your behind.)
And, if the sonic boom is'nt enough of a problem, you have to consider the problems with drag. Although shield will keep out the wind, the air around the shield will be heated up to several hundred degrees celsius, turning the shield (if used) into what appears to be a fireball. Although a PhysAd with a few points in Heat Resistance could deal with this, if the shield were to collapse sheer friction would likely burn the character to charred ashes instantly.
And, of course, consider the problems with colliding with something. Although a barrier or whatever would protect the character from whateve he/she hits, the estimated 20+ G's caused by such a rapic decelleration would kill you anyways. If the character were to roll, say, a bowling ball at this speed, it could easily punch a hole right through a steel barricade and destroy whatever's on the other side. A brick would go right through someone, leaving a neat little rectangular hole. And a gun fired at this speed would not only kill your target, but the guy behind him as well.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
And, of course, consider the problems with colliding with something. Although a barrier or whatever would protect the character from whateve he/she hits, the estimated 20+ G's caused by such a rapic decelleration would kill you anyways.

Try 300+ Gs, assuming constant deceleration over 1 second. If you actually run smack into something, the deceleration would be closer to 3000+ Gs. Doesn't really matter because, as you described, the character in question would go *splat* immediately.

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Although shield will keep out the wind, the air around the shield will be heated up to several hundred degrees celsius, turning the shield (if used) into what appears to be a fireball.

Umm, no? Ever seen fireballs forming around the leading edges of aircraft moving at supersonic velocities? Didn't think so.

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Of course, this leads the problem of sonic booms. Although the character may be able to withstand a sonic boom (shield+the fact it's originating on you=low force), all the glass in a kilometer around will shatter instantly. Anyone in the close vicinity will be rendered deaf instantly, not to mention be thrown a few yards in the process.

I'll have to go with "no" again. You can see a video of an F-14 breaking the sound barrier here. It seems the distance from the crowd to the F-14 is about, what, 100 meters? 200 meters max? The crowd doesn't budge, and there is obviously no damage to equipment whatsoever. You can see a very strong wind forming, however, especially on the water. Probably not enough to throw a human around unless he's right next to (within a meter or two) of the (large-ish) object breaking the sound barrier.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
And, of course, consider the problems with colliding with something. Although a barrier or whatever would protect the character from whateve he/she hits, the estimated 20+ G's caused by such a rapic decelleration would kill you anyways.

Try 300+ Gs, assuming constant deceleration over 1 second. If you actually run smack into something, the deceleration would be closer to 3000+ Gs. Doesn't really matter because, as you described, the character in question would go *splat* immediately.

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Although shield will keep out the wind, the air around the shield will be heated up to several hundred degrees celsius, turning the shield (if used) into what appears to be a fireball.

Umm, no? Ever seen fireballs forming around the leading edges of aircraft moving at supersonic velocities? Didn't think so.

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Of course, this leads the problem of sonic booms. Although the character may be able to withstand a sonic boom (shield+the fact it's originating on you=low force), all the glass in a kilometer around will shatter instantly. Anyone in the close vicinity will be rendered deaf instantly, not to mention be thrown a few yards in the process.

I'll have to go with "no" again. You can see a video of an F-14 breaking the sound barrier here. It seems the distance from the crowd to the F-14 is about, what, 100 meters? 200 meters max? The crowd doesn't budge, and there is obviously no damage to equipment whatsoever. You can see a very strong wind forming, however, especially on the water. Probably not enough to throw a human around unless he's right next to (within a meter or two) of the (large-ish) object breaking the sound barrier.

At 100 meters, a sonic boom would have been reduced to zero damage according to my oversimplification of physics I do'nt have a thourough understanding of. However, the resulting boom is at least as powerful as a big lump as explosives, and you're pretty much dead if you're within 10 meters or so.

On the issue of fireballs, you might want to look at a picture of almost any spacecraft during re-entry. You can see a glowing corona around the thing from a mile away. Although you'd have to be moving faster than mach 1 for air to heat up this much, hydrocarbons and other impurities start glowing at much lower temperatures, if not burning outright.

On the issue of gravities, you might want to consider that protection spells tend to be able to absorb some impact. A bowling ball thrown by a troll PhysAd can easily be carrying a few thousand newtons of force, but a mage protected by a high-power barrier spell will not be budged an inch. That said, even if it did cushion the blow, the g-force would cause all the blood vessels in your brain to burst.
Wireknight
I am a believer in the concept of magic taking care of itself. If Movement didn't account for wind shear, among other speed-related obstacles, no one would use it on their characters. Everyone would, of course, use it on their opponents. The exchange would go something like this:

"The enemy shaman directs his spirit to use Movement on you. Your running speed suddenly jumps from 6 meters per second to 60 meters per second. Every bone in your legs, starting from the feet, instantly shatters, the fragments severing severy single artery, muscle, and tendon as they execute a velocity-induced en masse exit of your pathetic human legs. You fall to the ground, losing the remaining 70% of your skin to friction burns. The sudden rush of kinetic energy to your body's few intact remaining muscles spikes your blood pressure to five times normal, exploding your heart. You die."

Likewise, if some suspension of disbelief wasn't part of the game, characters with high Reaction attributes and multiple initiative dice would require extensive structural upgrades (i.e. Body, Quickness, and Strength improvements, be they adept powers, cyberware, bioware, or spells) to not suffer tremendous damage when they moved two or three times as fast as a regular human was intended to do.
hahnsoo
Hey, we were just trying to reconstruct "The Flash" in SR as a Troll, that's all. biggrin.gif
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE
On the issue of fireballs, you might want to look at a picture of almost any spacecraft during re-entry.


Which has absolutley no relevance to this discussion. Orbital vehicles are going many, many times faster than the speed of sound. Maintaining orbital velocity requires a speed of around Mach 22, if I remember correctly.

QUOTE
However, the resulting boom is at least as powerful as a big lump as explosives, and you're pretty much dead if you're within 10 meters or so.


I don't know where you're getting this from, but it's pretty much bulldrek. At point of origination, a sonic boom is about 200 decibels. 130-140 decibels is the threshold of painful noise, so if you were right on top of sonic boom (and not run down by the source) you could expect at least temporary deafness. I'm not sure about the shockwave, but since it doesn't blow aircraft skin apart, for cinematic effect, I might have it take someone off their feet, but certainly not turn them into chuncky salsa.
Cain
QUOTE
However, the resulting boom is at least as powerful as a big lump as explosives, and you're pretty much dead if you're within 10 meters or so.

Um, no.

A sonic boom is just air pressure waves colliding with one another. As such, the force of a sonic boom depends on the decibel level of the original sound waves. When you snap your fingers, or crack a whip, or fire a gun, the resultant "Crack!" is a small sonic boom. Since I don't see people getting pulped by snapping their fingers, simply exceeding the speed of sound doesn't cause the nasty effects you describe.
Sandoval Smith
Wikipedia: Sonic Boom
SpasticTeapot
Well, I specifically said I don't really understand the physics involved in this too well, and am therefore acquitted of any misinformation by the virtue that I am a moron. Ha.

Anyway, a 200DB noise is still pretty darn powerful. If I'm not mistaken, the power of a sound doubles for every three decibels you raise it, so his would be like the noise of a rock concert times roughly 8 billion. That'll still leave a bit of a pothole (even a little one) and shatter some windows.

Of course, you still have to figure in the effects of a character using a spear. Providing that he or she could withstand the deceleration, damage would be in the category of absurd. If you were hit by a troll going over mach 1 with a barrier spell, you would be knocked one heck of a long way. Steel safes would buckle under the impact of several hundred pounds at a speed greater than that of a sniper rifle bullet.

Also, consider the issue of jumping. At 1000kph, the character would only need to leave the ground for 3.6 seconds to travel a KILOMETER. With some initiation, a physad can stay up for seven or more in a single bound. Does this sound like a problem to you?

On the plus side, this does solve the problem of magic-users (who often do not know how to drive) getting to the meet on time; plus, they're not elidgible for speeding tickets if they stay in pedestrian lanes.
DocMortand
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Anyway, a 200DB noise is still pretty darn powerful. If I'm not mistaken, the power of a sound doubles for every three decibels you raise it, so his would be like the noise of a rock concert times roughly 8 billion. That'll still leave a bit of a pothole (even a little one) and shatter some windows.

........

Also, consider the issue of jumping. At 1000kph, the character would only need to leave the ground for 3.6 seconds to travel a KILOMETER. With some initiation, a physad can stay up for seven or more in a single bound. Does this sound like a problem to you?

200 Db will kill people. I believe 180 is the limit for that, IIRC.

Also, if a mage jumps a kilometer straight up, he's going to either die from oxygen loss, the mana warp as you get closer to space, or depressurization problems.

Not that said mage would be that stupid...
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (DocMortand)
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Mar 29 2005, 01:26 AM)
Anyway, a 200DB noise is still pretty darn powerful. If I'm not mistaken, the power of a sound doubles for every three decibels you raise it, so his would be like the noise of a rock concert times roughly 8 billion.  That'll still leave a bit of a pothole (even a little one) and shatter some windows.

........

Also, consider the issue of jumping. At 1000kph, the character would only need to leave the ground for 3.6 seconds to travel a KILOMETER. With some initiation, a physad can stay up for seven or more in a single bound. Does this sound like a problem to you?

200 Db will kill people. I believe 180 is the limit for that, IIRC.

Also, if a mage jumps a kilometer straight up, he's going to either die from oxygen loss, the mana warp as you get closer to space, or depressurization problems.

Not that said mage would be that stupid...

I meant a kilometer distance-wise. You would'nt go more than a meter or so off the ground, but you'd go a long way. Think along the lines of shooting a pistol three inches off the ground as opposed to at a 45 degree angle.
Of course, the mage could always hit a tree halfway through the jump...
scatter.gif
Sharaloth
QUOTE
Also, if a mage jumps a kilometer straight up, he's going to either die from oxygen loss, the mana warp as you get closer to space, or depressurization problems.


At a kilometer he won't be having any of those problems. IIRC low-earth orbit's around 100km up, and the manasphere goes up to 80km or so (don't have books handy right now, I could be wrong. But it's most definitely more than a kilometer). At 1k up he'd have to deal with some lightheadedness and shortness of breath, he might even pass out if he's got a body of 1. Remember kids, it's not the going up that's the problem, it's the coming down bit.
toturi
Yeah, if you jumped up at sea level, you'll only reach the level of the top of some mountains. And coming down is no problem, it is water...
mfb
the heat of re-entry is also largely generated, as i understand it, from passage through the thermosphere. friction is just icing on the cake.
Da9iel
No, the thermosphere is not dense enough to have significant heat merely from contact with the hot gas. Widely spaced gas molecules even at high temperature have low/volume enthalpy. It's friction. Mach 20 is fast enough that you need that ugly blunt nose like the space shuttle. A pointy nose would simply burn away. That is one of the major hurdles with hypersonic research: blunt nose=low heat/high drag, pointy nose=high (too high) heat/low drag. But yeah, mach 1 or even 2 is not fireball death. Mach 3 or 4 can get burn-your-hand hot (SR-71).

[Edit=re-read mfb's post]Sure, the thermosphere can add significant heat along the body, but the glowing red nose is primarily from friction.[/edit]
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