Will Karma Pool stay with us or will it be replaced by another "luck factor"?
Personally, I really liked the way Karma Pool worked and would love to see it carry over into the new edition.
Full Version: Karma Pool
So would I. It has saved my characters' hoops far more often than I can count. Without Karma pool, things get ugly really fast.
Karma pool was way too powerful, in my opinion. It very nearly destroyed my enjoyment of the game. Just to counterbalance the ideas here.
I've always liked Karma Pool, it occasionally gets a little frustrating at high levels, but overall I like it and would like to see it more or less unchanged.
When the players have a high enough Karma Pool that it becomes frustrating, the NPCs they're up against should have comparable numbers. I can't even count how many times I've seen one particular character and the GM face off re-rolling dice.
I love karma pool, but there should probably be a cap for high level characters (i.e. 10). They can always burn permenant karma pool to drop below ten as well.
Use the graduated karma pool rules. I've had great success with it.
Link? Or what book is it in?
The graduated Karma pool rules merely slow down Karma pool advancement upon some plateaus like 5 karma etc.
Personally I'd like to see the ratio of good karma to karma pool for all characters to go up signficantly to something like 1 in 25 with some of the metahumans going at 1 in 40 or something and then factoring in graduated karma pool advancement. That way opposition for published adventures and/or conventions (personally ewww
) would be more uniform and require less customization.
Personally I'd like to see the ratio of good karma to karma pool for all characters to go up signficantly to something like 1 in 25 with some of the metahumans going at 1 in 40 or something and then factoring in graduated karma pool advancement. That way opposition for published adventures and/or conventions (personally ewww
) would be more uniform and require less customization.
By the way ... what was the point of saying "humans shall get one karma pool for 10 good karma, and others shall get one on 20" ? I never understood the reason behind this.
I've heard something about metahumans gaining karma pool more slowly because they are "brand new", or something like that, but never been satisfied about this.
Or was it a way to reduce the number of methumans player characters to reflect the quotas ?
I've heard something about metahumans gaining karma pool more slowly because they are "brand new", or something like that, but never been satisfied about this.
Or was it a way to reduce the number of methumans player characters to reflect the quotas ?
I think the original thing I read about that (in SR2 I believe) was that humans are better at adapting, so they get the 1/10 KP whereas metahumans get 1/20 KP.
I think they were just trying to make an allusion to any d20 game where there are races other than human -- humans get one extra skill point/level, one extra feat at creation and sometimes can crossclass with no penalties.
I think they were just trying to make an allusion to any d20 game where there are races other than human -- humans get one extra skill point/level, one extra feat at creation and sometimes can crossclass with no penalties.
I'm pretty sure the differing rates of KP growth pre-dates D20.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| I think they were just trying to make an allusion to any d20 game where there are races other than human -- humans get one extra skill point/level, one extra feat at creation and sometimes can crossclass with no penalties. |
I highly doubt that, as SR2, and even SR3 came out before d20 was published.
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| I'm pretty sure the differing rates of KP growth pre-dates D20. |
By several years. I'd give you dates if I was where my books are.
To be hones the varying levels of karma pool advancement are a massive improvement in playability over the assumption that metahumans all have one or more allergies that was present in previous editions not to mention the heinous racial priority rules. It might seems like metahumans are getting gimped in SR3 but serious decreased karma is pretty tame considering how much they dominate many archetypes now.
They still have allergies in my game, although I did accept the new priorities for them.
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| They still have allergies in my game, although I did accept the new priorities for them. |
Actually I think the SR3 rules went too far in terms of making them playable to the point of making them superior in many cases. Allergies to relatively common substances might go a long way towards reducing their relative popularity. I'd be tempted to make all metahumans suffer biosensitivity of some sort but that would just make all metahuman characters awakened which is already a bit too common in my mind.
Of course slightly more realistical and advantageous attribute modifiers might go a long way towards fixing them for a 4th edition.
superior? hee hee. all the foolish munchkins make metahuman characters because they like the stat boosts and other bonii. all the smart ones make humans because, in the long run, the doubled karma pool makes you a god among metamen.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Use the graduated karma pool rules. I've had great success with it. |
Echoing hermit's request for linkage or book/page. I can remember some discussions here on different ways of doing this, but I can't remember what are the most common/generally accepted varieties.
I personally use a system where it takes 10 points of Karma to get the first additional Karma Pool (and it isn't removed from your Good Karma, it's an additional bonus), then 20 more for the second additional KP, then 30 more for the third, then 40 more, etc. I am of the opinion that different rates of KP advancement for humans and metahumans is silly.
mfb: Do all the smart munchkins also use "bonii" as the plural of "bonus"?
Actually austere one your graduated system is a bunch slower than the one we are talking about which is something similar but goes up in cost at 5 karma increments instead of every karma pool increment.
Yeah, I got that impression in some earlier threads about the subject as well. I don't mind, I think 2-5 KP is plenty. I like to think re-rolling failures three times in a row, which takes 6 KP, should be reserved to bad-asses. But, really, that's just a question of preference.
I like the Karma Pool, but do think things get strange at high levels. I wouldn't mind seeing the graduated concept become core or the whole concept streamlined to resemble some of the Action Point/Dice mechanics out there for other systems (which may just be streamlined version of SR's Karma Pool themselves).
In response to the SR being older than d20:
I'm fairly certain D&D (which is d20) came about before SR.
As always, I could be wrong, and could be talking out of my ass.
(For future reference, when I refer to d20, I'm referring to any product that now uses the d20 system, including D&D).
I'm fairly certain D&D (which is d20) came about before SR.
As always, I could be wrong, and could be talking out of my ass.
(For future reference, when I refer to d20, I'm referring to any product that now uses the d20 system, including D&D).
D20 is a relatively modern iteration while 2nd edition DnD did use the d20 for a variety of rolls most notably Thac0 it was not the core mechanic for the system until 3rd edition was developed. It was with d20 that increased adaptation for humans became a racial trait (previously thier advantage was the ability to acchieve unlimited advancement in any class and the somewhat dubious ability to dual class). So if karma pool is supposed to represent adaptability technically SR predates d20 by some years.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 29 2005, 09:09 PM) |
| I like to think re-rolling failures three times in a row, which takes 6 KP, should be reserved to bad-asses. But, really, that's just a question of preference. |
For example someone's firing 14D autofire on your poor character with no armor and you need 5 successes against 6 to dodge the bullets.
------
I'm pretty sure the 1/10 for humans and 1/20 for metas was a new invention of SR3. AFAIR metas even got 2 starting points in SR2.
| QUOTE (Doc Byte) | ||
For example someone's firing 14T autofire on your poor character with no armor and you need 5 successes against 6 to dodge the bullets. |
That's why it's always good to save one karma for those please GM don't kill me occasions. Granted it sucks to permanently burn a karma pool die but sometimes you just got to bite the bullet.
| QUOTE (Doc Byte) |
| I'm pretty sure the 1/10 for humans and 1/20 for metas was a new invention of SR3. AFAIR metas even got 2 starting points in SR2. |
If you weren't using the "More Metahumans" rule, yes.
The canon rule for 2nd Ed is that Metas are Priority A and get 2 KP. If you use the MM rule Metas are Priority C and get 1 KP.
| QUOTE (tanka @ Mar 30 2005, 09:00 AM) |
| I'm fairly certain D&D (which is d20) came about before SR. |
True, but the specific bonuses for humans that you referenced were a product of the d20 rules set, which came about with the advent of D&D 3.0.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Link? Or what book is it in? |
p82, Shadowrun Companion, under "Staggered-rate karma pools". Basically, for every 5 karma pool earned, the rate for earning more goes up by 10. So, once a character has earned 80 karma (40 for humans) and has a karma pool of 5, it now costs him 30 karma per pool point (20 for humans).
This really slows down karma pool advancement. At 200 karma, a human will only have 12 KP, as opposed to the usual 21.
From a GM's perspective, 12 Karma pool is more than enough.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
True, but the specific bonuses for humans that you referenced were a product of the d20 rules set, which came about with the advent of D&D 3.0. |
The differing Karma accumulation rates have their origins in the different treatment of the various metahuman races and how they gained Karma in Earthdawn, unless I miss my guess.
Characters would spend Legend Points (XP by another name, sort of) to buy Karma, and each race purchased Karma at a different rate.
Windlings got the best deal, followed by Humans, then (in no particular order) Orks, Elves and T'Skrang, while Obsidimen and Trolls had to pay the most to buy Karma...
They also got varying degrees of usefullness/power from those karma points, too, mind you. Compare a Troll's bonus d4 to a Windling's bonus d12, on top of the decreased prices for initial purchase. It was kind of a neat way to keep things balanced, though -- some races got overwhelmingly potent physical stats, some didn't. Giving an edge (by way of luck) to some of the left out races sort of made up for everything, I thought.
It's d10 for Windlings. At least, it is in ED2.
d8 Humans and Orks
d6 Elves, T'skrang, Dwarves
d4 Trolls
d8 Humans and Orks
d6 Elves, T'skrang, Dwarves
d4 Trolls
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