Now i'll admit that apart from the fact that a parents genes has an influence on their offspring i know very little about genetics. However i know some people on here work in this field, thus they might be able to shed some light on it.

With the advent of SR4 around the corner, and the time line jumping 5 years. It is a distinct possability of a character being a child of parents that had a signifcant bioindex.

Example:
What if KAM had her child after her getting the Cerebral Booster, Mnemonic Enhancer (lvl3) even after she under went Age Rejuvenation. These have a combined BioIndex of 2.4 (I think). Would this effect the child in anyway?

Now i know there is already some things in place that can be used to represent this (Weak Immune System, also the Genetech before birth) but what other effects (if any) could happen?

Could you just say that the reason for having Exceptional this or Bonus Attribute that is because of their parents or would there be other/ better ways?

Ok the effects of genetics depends on weather your DNA is changed during enhancement, if the bioware was implanted say via an engineered virus (by inserting the engineered DNA into the host) as pat of the reproduction (miosis) the child would have a 50% chance of obtaining the altered DNA, If this was to happen the child would then take on some of the attributes of the parent.

But as I said unless the Mother or farthers DNA was changed it would not have a genetic affect on the child.

However if the child was got by AI there would be scope to change the DNA during the fertilization of the egg within a test tube before implantation into the mother.


If you could let me know if the attributes you are talking about are genetic altering (and what they affect) i could work it out for you!

the problem with genetics is the coding,

Would give me something to do in work tomorrow

torz x

All those poor suprathyroid "juicer babies".



Would be a great plot hook thing. All sorts of malformed children because of their parents bioware screwing with thier development.

Maybe the juicer babies have really weak immune systems, but +2 strength and quickness, reach adulthood in 12 years (6 for orc's), and extreeme violent tendencies?

... and they die of old age at 30 (20 for orc's) making them extreemly bitter as well.

Wouldn't be "genetic" so much as developmental. Health and hormonal balance in the mother is very important to proper development. For men it is far more likely to just cause fertility problems, though I think stuff like chromosomal damage can get through the fathers side sometimes.

Well. Bioware is implants. Like replacement organs or body fat breast enlargement, they're living tissue, but they're phenotypical, not genotypical. Meaning: the cerebral booster doesn't *grow* on your frontal lobes, it is implanted there. Bioware is, as the name implies, living cyberware, and won't be passed on to offspring.

It might affect the child (and mother) in the way of causing previously unknown complications during pregnancy, but it won't carry over into the hild, who will then grow their own cerebral booster, mnemonic enhancer, or age rejuvenantion.

Genetical enhancements and gene therapy might be passed on though, depending if they affect the whole body (including gonades) or just selected parts of it (bones, muscles, eyes ...). Since it wouldn't be good long term business planning if people who bought a genetech enhancement were to pass it on to theor children, I doupt even that would be the case.

Also if the living bioware was taken from your own tissue in order to create that would not affect your DNA, If it was donor it may but like Hermit said it is not growing and would not affect the reproductive tissue!

torz x

Actually I hate to put a damper on this but unless bioware is delivered in a retrovirus that targets the sperm and/or eggs of the bioware recipients I see the idea of inheriting bioware as pretty much impossible. Even targeted genetech shouldn't really effect offspring (in fact if it should be expressly designed to not do so because a company would be fundamentally destroying thier future market).

Not that genetech wouldn't be available for developing fetuses but that implants designed for adults shouldn't be inheritable.

However in specific instances like bioware that appreciably alters hormone production in the target there are likely increased chances of birth defects, sterility etc as a result of hormone linked developmental changes. Of course if you are getting pregnant with significant adrenal boosters intact you are probably asking for trouble.

Just wanting to be aware of the possiblities or lack there off.

The child could only be affected by the parents' bioware on the genetic level if:

a)It was done by genetic modification and
b)It was done in such a way that it'd (oversimplifying massively to save space here) rewrite the DNA in the parent's reproductive organs - what the DNA was in any other part of the body wouldn't matter.

On top of that, the child would only be likely to be meaningfully affected if:

1. The gene re-writing didn't produce a genetic mosaic - that is, some cells with the new genes, some without (which is the realistic result if you're talking about re-writing genes in an adult, these things just don't work 100% of the time, and it's not practical at best, not possible at worst, to re-write all the genes in all the cells in the body - you just care about changing enough to get the desired effect)

2. The information was localized enough that the random scrambling of genetic information during fertilization wouldn't cause it to become worhtless - if the "over-written" areas included multiple genes on multiple chromosomes, chances are the kid would never get all the necessary ones.

3. That genes designed to cause certain kinds of expression in an adult would even work the same way if present during embrionic development, and wouldn't be rendered inacitve or cause a non-viable embryo.

Edit: Birth defects would certainly be possible if the mother had 'ware that messed with hormones or the immune system, or the father had something that'd have a damaging effect on the sperm...

This has brought up the other thought i had, if you can already create 'customized' babys now (though under tight control at the moment) what is to say that you will not be able to change thing in the future. I mean things like enhanced hypothalamus or Thyroid. All is possible........


torz x

Yeah, that might work, but again, any corp that would allow this to be inherited would ruin future business opportunities. I would always guess even such a baby customisation genetech treatment would target anything but reproductive tissue.

Hey, genetech corps want to make money too.

The possibility of getting a kid an advantage by in-utero genetech treatment is fascinating though. Would even further the rich-poor divide. Sweet idea!

While some corporations trying to rush a product to market might skimp and not use a targeted retrovirus that avoids the sex organs that should be the vast minority outside of the cut cut rate genetech ripoff companies. After all just because it creates a benefit in an adult there is no guarantee it wouldn't be lethal to a child or developing fetus. Fundamentally it's bad business sense for the genetech companies.

One real trouble spot would be the potential effect of hormone bioware or genetech on awakened fetuses as even with the awakened genome mapped I doubt all variables of expression have been tested.

Another aspect of the whole thing is the wakened. Admitedly it's a slim chance that your kid is gonna be a mage (though 1 in 100 is nothing to sneeze at; lots of people buy lottery tickets with exponentially worse odds), but any atempts you make to alter the kid in-utero before you can know if he is or isn't Awakened may hurt his magical development after birth. I see this being a major drag on the "altering kids in the womb" initiative.

This is, BTW, why I dislike genetech as played out in SR.

You could mess with the genes of any children conceived post-mod. Probably would, actually, and quite by accident.

And we don't know, really can't know, how every gene works with every other with any certainty.

You could very easily create even nastier forms of diseases such as Tay-Sachs.

This would make any genemods ridiculously bad business sense...Think Thalidomide, 20 times worse.

Genetics is simple..sort of.
For a given trait, a person has two genes: One from the mother, and one from the father. Only one of these is expressed.
An example is the rabbit. Brown-haired rabbit traits are dominant over white, and short hair is dominant over long. If two "purebred" rabbits (white longhair and brown shorthair) are bred, you''ll end up with something like this:

(S=short s=long B=brown b=white)
Rabbit A: BBSS
Rabbit B: bbss
All permutations will end up with BbSs, because you're going to get one of the dominant and recessive genes regardless of which one you get. All children would be brown shorthair.

If two of the children are bred, you'll instead end up with:
1/16 :bbss
3/16 :BBss or Bbss (brown longhair either way)
3/16 :bbSs or bbSS (white shorthair either way)
9/16: BbSs or BBSS (brown shorthair either way.)

So, a trait can bounce generations if two carriers of a trait have kids. (Although both rabbits were brown shorthair, they give birth to white longhairs 1/16 of the time.)
Also, consider that most viruses do not do much to eggs, partially because they are all formed at birth and stored away. Sperm producer cells (1 per 4 sperm) are more vulnerable to some of these, but because sperm are replaced, guys can have kids after chemo while women cannot.

This may sound confusing, but the upshot is a LOT of random crazy mutations as genetech becomes more common. Two ordinary people with ordinary parents could easily give birth to a hulking monster or a child with absurdly slow physical growth rates.(due, perhaps, to age-reducing genetech), which would make for an interesting character indeed. (A 40 year old would look 13, and would scare the crap out of most people who do not expect a ten-die Fireball from some "snot-nosed kid".)

Yes I may have over simplified the topic of genetics, but there is so much to cover and discuss about in terms of gean exchange etc that I did not want to make a post 20 pages long!!

It would proberly be unlikely for the bio modiforcation to be passed on via reproduction, but as evolution is a form of mutation there might be a very remote chance!

The other thing to think about is if magic ability for instance could be passed on through the geans would this be a ressesive action, i would have thought so other wise you would have hundreds of magic users running about??

torz x

If you're looking for run ideas based on gengineering children,I'd recommend reading James Patterson's books When the Wind Blows and The Lake House, which concern radical in utero gengineering to create... well, I won't spoil it.

well, going from the descriptions in the colour texts, and shadowtalk, i'd have to say it's probably best to rule this on a case by case basis.

The platelet factory, for example, is stated as being "by selective enhancement throbmoscyte (platelet) productionis increaced to a high level". that does, to me sound like a genetic level enhancement.

symbiotes however seem to be the first evolution of nanotech, and so wont get passed on.

Synthacardium is listed as being an artificialy enhanced myocardium. the shadow talk for the same bit also states that it's grow in a clone body, and transplanted.. so again, it's not an inheritable trait.

authoskin, is again, a bio-implant.

taylored pheromones, is the one that'sa little odd, in that it's just stated as being "possible to alter a persons sweat glands so that they produce controled quanitities of specialy designed pheromones". as the pheromones are created by glands in the body, i'm guessign that this is probably done by a genetic level modification... if it was a single injection deal, then theres a posibility of it wearing out sooner or later. chances are this is one you'll pass on to any off spring.. in a greater or lesser form (they smell like REALLY CUTE babies...)

the adrenal pup is listed as a trans-implant

ditto the suprathyroid, toxin extractor,

the pathogenic defence is listed as an augmentatio to the spleen, but the graphic shows what looks to me like a lumps stitched onto the side of the spleen.. so i'm going with "implant" on this one.

the Cerebral booster is described as "an introduction of additional cells into the cerebelum. now this one is a tricky call, but imho, it's probably an implant, done in the same way that wired reflexes are done... using nanites to stimulate growth in specicif places. of course you could also call it as beinng done by a retro virus, so it's got a small chance of giving ypu really smart kids... and imho a really BIG chance of them being vegitables... all that additional grey matter screwing up a developing brain. the could in theory lead to an increase in autistic kids .. where one or more parent had a cerebral booster installed.

the damage compensator, mnemonic enhancer, and pain editor are againall listed as implants.. as is the reflex recorder. this one actually states that the additional nerve tissue is implanted and then grown... which is probably a form of stem cell research...

the synaptic accelerator gives the following description.
"with the implant of the synaptic acceleration, the neural cells which make up the spinal cord and other nerve trunks are encoraged to replicate and lengthen". that to me sounds like the implant makes nerve growth possible... which means that it has a chance of being passed on genetically, and has a prety good chance of either making any off spring REALLY hyper active, or in a best case senario, giving them the "low pain tollerance" flaw. rather than just having your reflexes boosted, imagin having ALL of your nerve responses sped up...

Enhance artwinculatio is listed as being a LOT of different procedures... none of which seem to be close to being genetic..

muscle augmentions, seem to involve the introdution of additiona material, that is woven into existing muscles.

Of course, now that i've checked Man and the Machine, (p60) it's stated that ALL bio-ware is just annother form of implant. the recipients original organs are replaced with new, genetically modified versions... along with a battery of imunosupressants to get the body to see the new organ (or attachment) as being part of itself. .. which means that there's supposed to be no chance at all of any effects of bio ware being passed on to any offspring you may spawn.

that being siad, i can definatly see this kind of thing being used as a great plot device... MR J wants you to break into that shiawase facility to find evidence that they knew that there "mr Midnight" bioware inplant would have turned his "llittle timmy" in to a raving psychotic. It also made his children grow up as genetic mutants.....

Ahh I love it when people assume that human traits are typically as easily expressed as Mendel's peas.

For all intents and purposes even controlling a small thing like eye color becomes much more difficult than simple mendelian genetics would lead people to believe. There are often combinations of genes required to change the phenotype of any specific trait. Further with huge sections of the genome apparently inert we don't know if changing genes X,Y,Z will have signicant consequences on an apparently unrelated genetic trait. Factor in the default SR assumption that those inert sections of the DNA code are in fact related to magickal traits and things get very tricky very fast.

Yes in creatures and plants with short life spans it should be possible to acchieve significant understanding of how changing genes x,y,z will effect the species but with the significant time period between generations it would be hard to know if changing this trait will lead to a catestrophic mutation in later generations if two people with the same trait interbreed.

This is why wholesale genetic engineering of the human genome is so potential hazardous (not that it doesn't make for fun SciFi like gattaca etc) and quite unlikely within the time span of the SR universe.

But like i said before all points are sort of valid when it comes to genetics, I may be putting this in a simplified way but any major changes in species is down to mutation, with out this we would not evolve. So in a round about way it is possible to pass a doormat un seen trait on to you offspring if you have the genetic potential.

who is to say that people who were born elf for instance were not the recipient of a very ressesive gene?

this argument / debate could go on and on in terms of what may and may not happen, as genetics is an evolving science!

torz x

oh DR Jest yeah I would love to borrow that book, bring it over!

Also, keep in mind genetics isn't as ironclad as it might seem. For example, doing separated identitcal twin studies, psychologists have found that 50% of one's "intelligence" is determined by genetics. The rest is environmental. (Yes, yes, I know the studies are hardly conclusive and IQ does not equal intelligence, but the point is there.)

I have to agree the rabbit example is somewhat simplistic--many factors we would want to select for are over many genes and interact with very complex recessive-dominant interactions. On top of that, the secondary structure and position of the gene on the chromosome can change how it's expressed.

I'd hate to see a street sam's child, truth be told. Too much popular bioware would do awful things to a fetus...

I tend to believe that metahuman expression is more influenced by ambient mana flow in the environment of the gestating fetus. Thus we have abnormally high elf populations in areas that have significant mana concentration.