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Crimson Jack
I'm eagerly awaiting the hilarity.
Fortune
I'm eagerly awaiting the flame wars.
Herald of Verjigorm
I'm eagerly awaiting the hilarious flame wars.
Kesh
I'm eagerly awaiting us getting back on topic. wink.gif
Talia Invierno
I tried?
Psiclops
I don't find it very hard to imagine that an effect could be "started" and yet not fully formed. The process of hypnosis takes time to build up a framework that makes the subject believe. The Influence spell effect could take a while to cause the subject to internalize the full effect, perhaps as many as 15 combat turns, no?

The black and white, cut and dried concept of "an effect can't cease if it hasn't started" is unimaginative.

In MiTS, pg 52, the section on duration it states
QUOTE
The base time for maintaining a permanent spell depends on its Drain Level, as shown on the Permanent Spell Base Time Table. If the spell is not maintained for the entire time required, it does not become permanent and its effect is lost.


On a related note, MiTS, pg. 52 also provides the insight
QUOTE
The caster can reduce the time required for a spell to become permanent by using successes from the Sorcery Test. These successes do not increase the effect of the spell. Divide the base time by the number of succeses allocated to determine how long it takes for the spell to become permanent."


So there is a mechanic to make Perm spells slightly more combat viable.

Example
CODE

So for example, Joe Losermage decides that he will Influence Bob Secguard. He wants to plant the idea that he needs to get up from his chair, put his gun down, and go to the bathroom.

Joe starts casting his Influence Force 6 on the guard. He uses his 6 Sorcery dice and adds 6 dice from his spell pool.
Target for success is Bob's willpower, which is 3.

On 12 dice, Joe comes up with 7 successes! Wow!  He decides that he wants to rush things, so he dedicates 5 of them to hurrying it up.

This will change the "sustained" period to 15/5 or 3 combat turns, however it only leaves 2 successes for the spell. Bob Secguard rolls his 3 willpower to combat the spell with a target of 6 (force of the spell) and gets 1 success. Joe is in too big of a hurry though, and doesn't sustain the spell for the full 3 combat turns. Oops, I guess Bob doesn't really need to go to the bathroom after all.

--------------------------------
Nothing about the spell Influence that I have seen suggests to me that it can take effect before it becomes permanent. The rules for permanent spells state that they must be sustained for a lengthy duration before they are permanent.
And before they are permanent, what would you call them? A fully functional temporary spell? There is no mechanic supporting the use of a permanent spell as a short term sustained spell.
Is it an effect that starts the instant you begin the process of casting and sustaining to become permanent? I haven't seen any canon that supports effects taking hold before they become permanent.

So I suggest that the "spirit" of the rules indicates that a permanent effect should not be so short term as to be able to be completed and expendable prior to becoming permanent. I think that the classification and design of this spell are poor. It could work very well as an Instant spell with a much higher drain rating, or simply let the existing sustained control XXXX spells take it's place. Other effects that are classified as permanent are items that CAN take effect for the short term and yet still have their usefulness cancelled by an aborted cast. A heal spell is great, and it will save your life, but if the mage dies or leaves before it becomes perm, then you are in just as big of a shithole as before. Same with all of the health spells.

I've personally struggled with a player in my games that uses Control Thoughts. I've come to terms with it, as it is pretty well balanced by the drain, the multiple resistance checks, and the sustain penalties.

Is anyone using the ruling for permanent spells that they must be sustained for x turns to take full effect for other spells like heal, treat, antidote, detox, etc?

It also means that anyone playing a primary focused "Heal magic" character is going to be very bored most of the time. I need to examine this and possibly house rule it, because my first-time-playing wife wanted to be a "cleric".
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (Psiclops)
The black and white, cut and dried concept of "an effect can't cease if it hasn't started" is unimaginative.

It's not that its unimaginative. It's simply another perspective of the way the rules read.
QUOTE (Psiclops)
So I suggest that the "spirit" of the rules indicates that a permanent effect should not be so short term as to be able to be completed and expendable prior to becoming permanent. I think that the classification and design of this spell are poor.

Agreed. Perhaps it would behoove the writers to include the spirit of the rules in the actual rules itself. I can't see this being an issue if the spell was written better.
QUOTE (Psiclops)
Is anyone using the ruling for permanent spells that they must be sustained for x turns to take full effect for other spells like heal, treat, antidote, detox, etc?

We do and the way its storied is that when someone is healing someone else, the effects of the healing begin at the moment they start casting the spell. The wound starts stitching back together, bones start mending, etc. When the spell is finished and the instrument (magic) is removed, all stays in place and is reconstructed the way its supposed to be. If the spell is interrupted, all of the magic's work is unraveled and the wound returns to normal. While magic is a bit abstract to think about, it doesn't seem very imaginative to have the mage wait 15 base turns to heal a wound while it remains open and then, all of a sudden *bamph*, it stitches up in a blink of an eye. That seems a bit too much like That Other Game for me.

Our preference. smile.gif
QUOTE (Psiclops)
It also means that anyone playing a primary focused "Heal magic" character is going to be very bored most of the time. I need to examine this and possibly house rule it, because my first-time-playing wife wanted to be a "cleric".

Biotech (First Aid) is a SR "cleric's" best friend. smile.gif
tisoz
QUOTE (Crimson Jack)
We do and the way its storied is that when someone is healing someone else, the effects of the healing begin at the moment they start casting the spell. The wound starts stitching back together, bones start mending, etc. When the spell is finished and the instrument (magic) is removed, all stays in place and is reconstructed the way its supposed to be. If the spell is interrupted, all of the magic's work is unraveled and the wound returns to normal. While magic is a bit abstract to think about, it doesn't seem very imaginative to have the mage wait 15 base turns to heal a wound while it remains open and then, all of a sudden *bamph*, it stitches up in a blink of an eye. That seems a bit too much like That Other Game for me.

I would agree with this description, but I have heard people say the wound heals as soon as the spell is cast and the effects are permanent after being sustained the required turns. By their description, the mage heals the Sammy, the Sammy can roll intitiative w/o wound modifiers and attack/defend without the same wound modifiers as long as the mage sustains the spell. If the mage quits sustaining, then the wound modifiers come back into play.
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