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JaronK
So... as far as I can tell, a spell caster with Force 2 Fast and Force 2 Nutrition can cast each spell once every 144 hours or so (assuming they cast with 12 dice), and never need to eat, without any penalty.

If a spellcaster was doing this, should their lifestyle costs go down?

Is there something preventing this?

JaronK
DocMortand
Heh, Lina's already done this in my game. It's a potent combo...except that it's not really game breaking. I don't reduce the price of the lodgings tho...in my mind the price of lodging is more for security and location than the food.
lorthazar
Yeah the yardstick the GM uses to whack players
DocMortand
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Yeah the yardstick the GM uses to whack players

Why? What's so game breaking about the combo? It's cheesy, yes...but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be allowed.
lorthazar
That was meant to imply there is nothing really to stop it unless the GM decides it isn't going to work.
DocMortand
Heh. Gotcha.
Edward
It is a non issue for most characters remember if you maintain 4 lifestyles you don’t get a discount because you only eat food for one person so I wouldn’t give any discount.

The combination would have 2 significant effects.

The more common is that you can live a street lifestyle and your GM can’t say that the rotten pizza you fished out of the doomster gave you cramps resist 4M with unaugmented body (bad food poisoning)

The les conmen but somewhat more significant implication is the geasa abstinence from food. You may get the occasional sidewards glance when you always refuse to eat (our Johnson’s almost always feed us at the meet, often expensive meals) but in most circumstances those 2 spells will render the geasa about as restrictive as setting a item of cyber wear as your talisman. Although the monk with geasa abstinence alcohol, abstinence sex and abstinence food (likely taken in that order) is a much better concept than a character with 3 cyber wear talismans. I may actually play that monk one day, after starry night witch probably wouldn’t notice geasas of indulgence alcohol, indulgence sex and indulgence food.

Edward
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (JaronK @ Apr 4 2005, 01:46 AM)


If a spellcaster was doing this, should their lifestyle costs go down?


The suprathyroid gland, which makes you eat more, increases your lifestyle cost.
Symbiotes, which make you eat more, increases your lifestyle cost.

Digestive Expansion bioware, which allows a character to eat free tree bark, reduces lifestyle cost.

So, by those examples, spells which allow you not to eat anything at all should reduce your lifestyle. There's no canonical rule for it, however.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
The suprathyroid gland, which makes you eat more, increases your lifestyle cost.
Symbiotes, which make you eat more, increases your lifestyle cost.

These two alone can cause your lifestyle cots to triple. Fortunatly with the SSG you can break down the cost somewhat in food/ house/ area etc. so you know what parts to discount.
DrJest
Purely from a roleplaying point of view, I would (as GM) start to introduce elements of strangeness to such a "manavore" character. Long-term substitution of magic for normal sustenance could have interesting side effects. I'm not saying I would exactly penalise a character for doing it, but I would certainly spice their life up a little.
Cray74
QUOTE (DrJest)
Purely from a roleplaying point of view, I would (as GM) start to introduce elements of strangeness to such a "manavore" character. Long-term substitution of magic for normal sustenance could have interesting side effects. I'm not saying I would exactly penalise a character for doing it, but I would certainly spice their life up a little.

Yeah, the digestive tract can do interesting things when it's been completely empty for a while, then gets refilled. (Word to the wise: if you ever have to have your intestinal tract emptied prior to a medical procedure, do not make greasy foods like Long John Silvers' fried fish your first post-procedure meal.)

And you'd be rather vulnerable to alcohol without any stomach contents to slow down its spread into your system.

Hmm. Can anyone else think of some side effects of a long-term "manavore"?
Aes
With absolutely no renewal of the fat deposits, I imagine he'd look exceedingly gaunt after a while - possibly freakishly so. On the plus side, having no digestion means no stomach gas.
DrJest
Wouldn't it be interesting if subsisting almost entirely on pure mana made the runner more... sensitive to the general weirdness of the world? Maybe catching a glimpse of a spirit out of the corner of their eye that's gone when they turn round... feeling background count as a physical sensation like nausea or stomach ache... nothing TN-worthy (necessarily - maybe it would be if you kept on going) but colour like that.
Cray74
QUOTE (Aes @ Apr 4 2005, 01:38 PM)
With absolutely no renewal of the fat deposits, I imagine he'd look exceedingly gaunt after a while - possibly freakishly so.

I suspect that if the spells provide a healthy dose of nutrients, then fat would be included.

QUOTE
On the plus side, having no digestion means no stomach gas.


Aww. Stomach gas brings so much fun to life.

QUOTE
Maybe catching a glimpse of a spirit out of the corner of their eye that's gone when they turn round... feeling background count as a physical sensation like nausea or stomach ache... nothing TN-worthy (necessarily - maybe it would be if you kept on going) but colour like that.


That sounds cool, maybe enough to make up for the lack of burping. smile.gif
DrJest
I meant to address something like this in the book I'm writing (a modern fantasy) but I never really got the opening. The main character makes a passing comment about how most decently talented wizards could do without food, drink or even sleep by pure magic but don't because of the side effects. I'd intended to explain that removing oneself from the normal functions of humanity caused a slow but inevitable degeneration in their own inner humanity, eventually leading to sociopathy as they no longer identify with other humans - and a sociopathic wizard is A Bad Thing.

Whether this could be applied to SR is another matter, of course.
RangerJoe
This sounds like a great combination of spells, particularly for SR groups that find themselves eating the paint off the walls in the Arcology, or deep in the forests of the Yucatan (but then again, there I suppose it's less about what you eat and more about what eats you).

My concerns:

Both spells are permanent. How do permanent spells show up in the astral after their casting time has passed? If the spell lasts 144 hours, surely there is some residual magical signature associated with it? Obviously, permanent spells don't function like actively sustained spells, but for such a long duration, I would imagine some kind of effect.

If my players did this, I could never coerce them to hit a Stuffer Shack before a run for munchables. Since so many of my plots revolve around Stuffer Shacks, this would be a game-breaker for me.
LinaInverse
I mainly got these 2 combo for the primary reason so that I could travel to remote locations with minimal support (it's my char's long-term plans to make foci, and mineral/herbal from "remote locales" is a fairly common rare material). I don't use it as a substitute for real food and my char's lifestyles are high enough such that I'm not digging stuff out of garbage bins to begin with.

QUOTE (RangerJoe)
My concerns:

Both spells are permanent. How do permanent spells show up in the astral after their casting time has passed? If the spell lasts 144 hours, surely there is some residual magical signature associated with it? Obviously, permanent spells don't function like actively sustained spells, but for such a long duration, I would imagine some kind of effect.

If my players did this, I could never coerce them to hit a Stuffer Shack before a run for munchables. Since so many of my plots revolve around Stuffer Shacks, this would be a game-breaker for me.


By this logic, anyone who ever gets Healed or cured of Disease/Poison would have such a signature. Given how common these happen, I really don't buy it.

And there are other places to ambush players than just Stuffer Shacks; I can't see how this simple combo is so game-breaking.

QUOTE (JaronK)
So... as far as I can tell, a spell caster with Force 2 Fast and Force 2 Nutrition can cast each spell once every 144 hours or so (assuming they cast with 12 dice), and never need to eat, without any penalty.

Minor correction; the number of successes determine how long (1 succ = 12 hrs), but that number is limited to the force of the spell. So in your example, this spell caster would have to cast his spells once a day (just like a multi-vitamin biggrin.gif). Personally, I took them to Force 4, mainly because I didn't want to waste the fact that Drain is a minimum of 2, regardless of the low force.
Herald of Verjigorm
I made a sorcerer for a (short lived) game who had this trick. Then I rolled for SURGE, and got a dozen effects.
kackling kactuar
Er, why take two different spells when you can just snag a Force 2 Create Food?
Fortune
QUOTE (kackling kactuar)
Er, why take two different spells when you can just snag a Force 2 Create Food?

Because you'd still need Create Water to have things covered in certain situations, like being stuck in the desert. Personally, I prefer the Create Food/Water combo to the two Health spells for my PCs.
Da9iel
@k.k. Because 2M is significantly easier to resist than 2S. Also, some (many?) GMs allow those 2 spells to be taken free - force 2 exclusive for cost.
kackling kactuar
QUOTE
Because you'd still need Create Water to have things covered in certain situations, like being stuck in the desert. Personally, I prefer the Create Food/Water combo to the two Health spells for my PCs.

Just create a popsicle and wait for it to melt!
DocMortand
QUOTE (Da9iel)
@k.k. Because 2M is significantly easier to resist than 2S. Also, some (many?) GMs allow those 2 spells to be taken free - force 2 exclusive for cost.

Not me! A spell in my game must be taken at minimum adjusted power of 1 (I.E. Fetished Exclusive has to be minimum 4, etc.). This is, of course, a house rule...but I got that from my GM and it's worked fairly well for me.

To me, Create Food/Water would be massively more useful purely for the fact that it can be used to sustain others, not just yourself. Especially if you're forced to eat the paint off the walls in the Arcology...
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (DocMortand)
(I.E. Fetished Exclusive has to be minimum 4, etc.)

You are aware that you can only use one limit on cost and/or one limit on drain for each spell?
Da9iel
@DocM Who says you can't cast nutrition and fast on others?
Fortune
QUOTE (kackling kactuar)
Just create a popsicle and wait for it to melt!

Have you actually read the spell description for Create Food?
Kagetenshi
Does it in any way preclude custom spell Create Popsicle?

~J
kackling kactuar
QUOTE
Have you actually read the spell description for Create Food?

Are you a heathen who does not consider a popsicle to be a nutritious meal?
toturi
A Create Food may result in a nutritious and filling popsicle, but it will not become water, because of the spell description.
kackling kactuar
"Negative, I am a meat popsicle."
DocMortand
[Subliminal]

Smoke.

[/Subliminal]
LinaInverse
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Apr 4 2005, 06:17 PM)
To me, Create Food/Water would be massively more useful purely for the fact that it can be used to sustain others, not just yourself.  Especially if you're forced to eat the paint off the walls in the Arcology...

As Da9iel says, there's no rule that says you can't cast these spells on others. "Fast" in fact, is touted as the diet spell for the wealthy, so clearly it can be used on others. On a broader point, Health spells by definition can be cast on others; they'd be useless otherwise.
DocMortand
Upon reading the spell descript, I must change my mind on that. It does say "target," not "self" or "caster."

Does make me wonder if making others in your party manavores would turn them off food? I mean if you feel satisfied...why be forced to go back to eating out of Stuffer Shack? Almost strikes me as an addiction...vegm.gif
LinaInverse
QUOTE (DocMortand)
Upon reading the spell descript, I must change my mind on that.  It does say "target," not "self" or "caster." 

Does make me wonder if making others in your party manavores would turn them off food?  I mean if you feel satisfied...why be forced to go back to eating out of Stuffer Shack?  Almost strikes me as an addiction...vegm.gif

Depends. Gentleman Jim, certainly not. The appreciation of fine wine, gourmet food, and the smell of an after-dinner Montecristo cigar is too ingrained in what he lives for. Losing that would go against everything he's working for (an independant High/Lux lifestyle).

Other runners, well, I'll grant you that's a possibility, especially the ones who have Digestive Expansion and have no sense of taste/smell anyway. To be fair, I think this is something that every character's personality should take into consideration. Even worse might be if we find (as I suspect we might run into) starving people who need rescuing in the Archology (based on RangerJoe's comment about eating paint off the walls), who then decide that the caster is their new deity (and must never leave) or something like that.
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Does it in any way preclude custom spell Create Popsicle?

If this was directed at me ...

We were not discussing custom spells, but a specific spell as listed in canon. Custom spells can, of course, address a number of different variables not covered in canon.
Kagetenshi
Like popsicles.

~J
JaronK
Well, in my games, Create Food and Create Water are out, because if magic can create food and water, it should be able to create something less complex like, say pure gold or diamond, and that's just opening a can of worms I don't like. So for consistancy's sake, those spells are gone.

I can see some problems arising, now that I think about it, involving the internal flaura and fauna of your digestive track. The usual stuff couldn't survive without fuel (unless, of course, the spell covers that too... perhaps it might?), and that might open up room for less friendly neighbors to move in.

JaronK
JaronK
And by the way, successes on Nutrition and Fast are not limited by force (but the total time of the effect is 12 * force * successes, so force does matter). So indeed, at force 2 you'll average 144 hours.

JaronK
Fortune
QUOTE (JaronK)
Well, in my games, Create Food and Create Water are out, because if magic can create food and water, it should be able to create something less complex like, say pure gold or diamond

Like fire, toxic sludge, ice, lightning, etc?

Do you disallow Elemental Mainpulations and spells like Ice Sheet as well?
Demosthenes
QUOTE
Well, in my games, Create Food and Create Water are out, because if magic can create food and water, it should be able to create something less complex like, say pure gold or diamond, and that's just opening a can of worms I don't like. So for consistancy's sake, those spells are gone.
What about casting levitate into a sustaining focus, attaching the focus to a hamster, and the hamster to a dynamo?
silly.gif

It's a stupid example, but my point is fairly simple: if you really want to be strict about enforcing the laws of physics (esp. the 2nd law of thermodynamics) in Shadowrun, you end up doing all kinds of crippling things to the magic system - or making all kinds of bizarre interpretations of the rules...

Which tie your hands later when you might prefer another interpretation... My interpretation of the rules for sustaining foci would disallow the example I gave above...but there are plenty of interpretations [which limit PC uses/abuses of levitate] that would allow the example above...

(Granted, the hamster would die pretty soon, poor little thing...but I'm sure if you did it to a devil rat, you'd have a handy low-power generator)

[ Spoiler ]
JaronK
QUOTE (Fortune)
Like fire, toxic sludge, ice, lightning, etc?

Do you disallow Elemental Mainpulations and spells like Ice Sheet as well?

Nope. I simply say that any matter created by spells is temporary. So a toxic wave, for example creates a wave of toxic goup, but that goup quickly dissipates (after the damage is done of course). Likewise, the ice from ice sheet goes away, so you can't use it as a create water spell by waiting for it to melt. With heal spells, I say that the spell only guides the flesh in how to heal and accelerates the rate of healing, but doesn't actually generate matter.

It works pretty well, and I've found fits nicely.

I'm not even going to get into the hamster internal combustion engine stuff.

JaronK
DragginSPADE
My group agrees that the nutrient spell would be incredible useful, but the other GM has been overheard plotting evil things to do if a PC started using it while in an area with a background count, or god forbid a toxic zone.
hyzmarca
The real problem with create food/water compared to nutrition/fast is hat the food has to be eaten and the water has to be drunk.
Nutrition and fast eat for you. That saves time and prevents sadistic GM's from having Sand Pirates make called shots to the PC's canteens.
Tarantula
Who says you can't create the food/water inside of your stomach? Well other than LOS issues... but if you cast invisibility on just your skin....... Or maybe another custom spell... Physical Window?
lorthazar
then you get the sadistic players who create cholesterol in people arteries killing them with heart attacks
psykotisk_overlegen
QUOTE (lorthazar)
then you get the sadistic players who create cholesterol in people arteries killing them with heart attacks

Since there are plenty of spells that do nothing but kill people, I see no problem with that. indifferent.gif

I don't see any problem with Fast/Nutrition as a combo, it's two spells, two drain checks, two signatures and not exactly game-breaking.
DocMortand
QUOTE (DragginSPADE)
My group agrees that the nutrient spell would be incredible useful, but the other GM has been overheard plotting evil things to do if a PC started using it while in an area with a background count, or god forbid a toxic zone.

Oh man, I never thought of that. *evil laugh* I have Target: Wastelands too, so I have the reference materials for toxic zones, etc...vegm.gif If you're eating pure mana, then yeah the background count/taint should affect the spell. Oochiemama. *grin*

What were some of the evil things the GM was plotting, for curiosity's sake?

:innocent look: What?
LinaInverse
QUOTE (DocMortand)
Oh man, I never thought of that. *evil laugh* I have Target: Wastelands too, so I have the reference materials for toxic zones, etc...vegm.gif If you're eating pure mana, then yeah the background count/taint should affect the spell. Oochiemama. *grin*

What were some of the evil things the GM was plotting, for curiosity's sake?

:innocent look: What?

Frankly, I think this is going too far, given that the spell makes no such mention about domains. For that matter, what happens when you cast Antidote, Heal, etc while in a toxic area? Those spells, arguably, use mana to fix/purify/etc the target. And if Heal spells are, as a whole, rendered toxic because of the domain, does this mean that Combat spells get some extra umph because of the toxic side effects?
DocMortand
Well generally toxic zones are referring to pollution - but in Target: Wastelands it codifies toxic zones a little more specifically:

Desolate - death camps, plague areas, basically places where life has been wiped out on a massive scale
Irradiated - Radiation zones
Poisoned - Contaminated by toxins, industrial waste, pollution, pesticides, etc.
Sterile - Basically where the human spirit has been polluted, such as high-security corp facilities, animal testing labs, gov't centers, etc.

It was the last that drew my attention - the spirits raised there actually are toxic. So Angel wouldn't be able to summon spirits inside such zones...or if she did the spirit may turn toxic after a while and go wild.

Frankly, if you're in that sort of area, you're already suffering under a Background Count of 3 or more, so the two spells would be coorespondingly difficult to cast and sustain. I wouldn't need to twist the spell any more than that - it would be pure color - the mana tastes "bad" but is still filling...like you had a really bad burrito. *grin*
LinaInverse
QUOTE (DocMortand)
Desolate - death camps, plague areas, basically places where life has been wiped out on a massive scale
Irradiated - Radiation zones
Poisoned - Contaminated by toxins, industrial waste, pollution, pesticides, etc.
Sterile - Basically where the human spirit has been polluted, such as high-security corp facilities, animal testing labs, gov't centers, etc.

It was the last that drew my attention - the spirits raised there actually are toxic. So Angel wouldn't be able to summon spirits inside such zones...or if she did the spirit may turn toxic after a while and go wild.

Frankly, if you're in that sort of area, you're already suffering under a Background Count of 3 or more, so the two spells would be coorespondingly difficult to cast and sustain. I wouldn't need to twist the spell any more than that - it would be pure color - the mana tastes "bad" but is still filling...like you had a really bad burrito. *grin*

Background count, I can accept; that's an established mechanic in spell casting. As for summoning spirits in dubious locales, well, Angel doesn't summon stuff all that powerful. Capping those shouldn't take too much effort...smile.gif

As for making mana "taste bad", well, if the person involved is someone trapped in the Arcology who's alternative was eating paint off the walls for the last few weeks, well, a bad burrito doesn't sound so bad under those circumstances.
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