Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Orichalcum Mines
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Ancient History
Fairly self-explanatory, methinks. When the comet dissapears for the last time, should all the orichalcum still in the ground vanish, or remain?
Kagetenshi
I think it should vanish if and only if a good explanation can be given why the stuff that was mined doesn't vanish along with it.

Edit: I don't, mind you, need for the explanation to actually appear in a book, but I want the FanPro Freelancers who deal with magic to know exactly what the reason was, and for it to be soundly reasonable and logical.

~J
Zephania
I think it all depends on how it got there in the first place. If it is naturally occuring and just needed the right mana levels to start appearing then yes it should remain. BUT if you think it was put there in a previous age of magic just in case and only immortal elves and dragons know where it is then as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out.
hahnsoo
I certainly think Glendower's mines in Snowdonia would still produce natural orichalcum (since hers seems to be "different", and the rumors of her orichalchum mining were around before the Comet). As for other sources, I think they all will dry up until the next magical "big event" occurs. Any other sources similar to Glendower's that people are aware of?
Zephania
Nothing springs to mind straight away but I noticed that the dragons are quite picky about where they roost so they might know somthing.

Hey what about King Solomons mines?
Chibu
IMO, it should go away. And, a possible explination as for why the mined stuff doesn't disappear: It's already been enchanted, therefore keeping it's magical properties, while that in the ground doean't have enough Mana (since the comet seems to have been more of a spike than a rise) to still be around. I do think, however, that it may be able to come back eventually. Or, that it can't come back and was a freak occurance, because, IIRC, i think there was mentioned somewhere that there was at least 1 mine around that was being mined. (possibly in Northern Cali, I can't remeber.
Fortune
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
I certainly think Glendower's mines in Snowdonia would still produce natural orichalcum (since her's seems to be "different", and the rumors of her orichalchum mining were around before the Comet). As for other sources, I think they all will dry up until the next magical "big event" occurs.

This is my opinion as well.
Kagetenshi
There's another good idea: hers should be the only ones that vanish.

~J
FlakJacket
Any particular reason or do you just have something against free spirit nobles that own a third of a country, backed by their own combat team with SotA combat armour that surpases anything even the megas have and undergound money factory? smile.gif
Pthgar
I think most of it should dissapear. The only stuff that remains should be a spike locations. I would suggest the bottoms of ancient dried up lakes and craters if I thought that any more ED stuff was going to be used in the 4th ed.
Astelaron
I think of all planetary bodies as being magical entities in that they have auras. In some places the mana flows strong (ley lines) and in some places the mana is gone (cyberware/Fovae). The nearness of another magical body coupled with the strong emotional response of the comet caused a global spike in mana. I look at this as being somewhat like the tidal pull of the moon only on magical energy. The spike in the mana caused more magical "awakenings" similiar to previous events like goblinization. The comet foreshadowed some of the things to come as the mana levels rise higher.

The earth is a magical entity and surged with the increase in mana revealing where natural orichalcum will be found in the future. So buy up mineral rights now! rotate.gif

According to the Year of the Comet SURGE dropped to a "trickle" and all "known" natural orichalcum deposits dried up. This doesn't mean that the powers that be havn't found one that has not dried up or found some way to keep the orichalcum present. I recal that there was rumored oricalcum mining in the Tir long before the comet. It seems resonable that there could still be places of high mana level that would still manifest some natural oricalcum.
fistandantilus4.0
I'm glad it's gone , because I think it would just be another long, drawn out resource war, and Orichalcum in general would become a lot more plentiful, cost would go down (some ) and foci would be more common.

On the flip side, did the people that became drakes go back to normal? no
Did the SURGE changelings change back? no....
So why would orichalcum, which I guess you could look at as being an awakened mineral go away? Kind of conflicts with all the other results of the comet's passing.

I'm not saying that it should stick around, just because I think it would skew the focus of the world too much. Orichalcum wars anyone? I just don't think that it makes sense when compared to everything else that stuck around.
Rock-Steady
They should stay. Got Orichalkummines even before the comet. They stole that idea from me. *g*
nezumi
Sure. Maybe it'll make the prices in MitS semi-reasonable.
hermit
It should remain, if for no other reason that it's ludicrous to say mined orichalcum remains, but orichalcum that human eyes haven't been laid upon vanishes for some mysterious reason. Humans aren't the center of the universe, and especially in SR, mana and magic have more than once made clear to humans that they could care less about whether what they do pleases them or not.
Kagetenshi
Actually, what would be really neat is if it all vanished, including the stuff that had been mined (and presumably used).

~J
hermit
Haha, okay, that'd be fun.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Apr 7 2005, 08:56 PM)
Any particular reason or do you just have something against free spirit nobles that own a third of a country, backed by their own combat team with SotA combat armour that surpases anything even the megas have and undergound money factory? smile.gif

Hey, don't forget that she has her own legion of knockers* to mine it FOR her. smile.gif

* (the faeries, not breasts, although that sounds fairly entertaining)
DragginSPADE
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Any particular reason or do you just have something against free spirit nobles that own a third of a country, backed by their own combat team with SotA combat armour that surpases anything even the megas have and undergound money factory? smile.gif

Wait a second. I can't tell from your post, are you joking about the free spirit bit? Granted it's been a while since I've been able to seriously go through my sourcebooks, but the last I'd heard the Duchess of Snowdonia was just an elven noble (with her own orichalcum mines, private power-armored elite troops, and all the rest but still...). Is there actually something in canon that says or hints that she's a free spirit? I'd heard the possibility of her being an IE before, but not the free spirit angle.
Ancient History
Old school shadowtalk, son. A line from the London Sourcebook.
DragginSPADE
Oh and as far as the original topic of this post...

I think that if the natural orichalcum doesn't stay after the comet passes this time, it should definitely stick around after the next big magical event. I'll also add my name to those who'd like an explanation for why the stuff that's been mined stays while the stuff still in the ground vanishes.
DragginSPADE
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Old school shadowtalk, son. A line from the London Sourcebook.

I think I remember that bit now. Some shadowtalker going on about seeing her on a balcony during a moonlit night? I didn't read the free spirit part from that, but it's been a while. I'll re-read London when I get my books all in one place again.
Kanada Ten
I agree with Astelaron. There have been hints since the beginning that Orichalcum existed naturally, thought the hows and whys were even less.

To put it in pseudo Thaumaturlogical terms: Faint astral ripples were sent by the comet as it passed, these ripples became waves as they crashed into the Earth's manasphere. Where these waves intersected Earth's own astral waves, Orichalcum deposits or other oddities occurred. However, other events may cause similar deposits to form in a normal "astralogical" process (as it does for all telesma material), just a geological processes cause diamonds to form (as it does normal rock).
Eyeless Blond
Well what happenned after the Comet could have been a sort of "reverse SURGE" process or something, affecting only the specific areas that sprouted up the natural orichalcum deposits. So any stuff still in those areas (eg. still in the ground) gets reabsorbed, but the stuff that was mined, not being inthe same place anymore, wasn't affected.
Kanada Ten
I think you're putting too much stock in terms like "dried up". At the speed for 2060 mining, it could simply mean them mined all that was there and no new appeared as it had during the Comet's passing. I can look in the books again, but I don't recall anything that said "there was stuff that we hadn't mined and when we came back it had changed back to rock" or similar.
hahnsoo
The relevant passage is on p149 of YotC:
QUOTE
THE WELL DRIES UP
In mid-2062, shortly after Halley's Comet passes from sight, the predictions of some parageologists come true.  All known orichalcum deposits run dry, and those that have been located but not yet exploited mysteriously cease to exist.  No new orichalcum veins are found, and the rush comes to an abrupt end.
The corps, however, remain vigilant.  Operating under the assumption that the mana level may one day rise again, returning natural orichalcum to the world, they continue to scout for locations where orichalcum is likely to appear.  Taking the long view, they hope to have such areas firmly under their control when the next rush begins.  Such investments will keep shadowrunners occupied in the years to com.e


So the "new" deposits that have been found but not exploited mysteriously vanish. I can't see why those would vanish, but the ones in the mines already being harvested would not also vanish. I suppose several wild ideas come to mind: Massive conspiracy to keep current operations under wraps, natural orichalcum is somehow "maintained" by mining (hey, it works in RTS, right?), etc.
Eyeless Blond
Or orichalcum that remains in the ground disappears via the exact same process that created it in the first place, while stuff that's actually mined is divorced enough from whatever natural process made it that it stays.
frostPDP
It would be pretty odd for Diamonds to suddeny become Coal again. Very, in fact.

If you presume that the comet caused mana levels to heighten even more and for whatever was left untouched returned to its natural state, you could say its possible to re-create Orchalcum mines (especially where you first found them) simply by focusing a lot of Mana into that area.

So my idea: Go ahead, get a group of ritual spellcasters and pump tons of power into a rock. See what you find.

Then again I could be crazy.
Fresno Bob
I think it would stay. I mean, shit doesn't just disappear like that. Maybe it would wane in power, but it wouldn't just up and go. Not like orichalcum has legs.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (frostPDP)
It would be pretty odd for Diamonds to suddeny become Coal again.  Very, in fact.
Erm, not really. Keep in mind that, at room temperature and pressure, the graphite phase is actually more energetically stable than diamond. The reason dramond stays around so long is that the C-C network bonds are just very stable and take forever to react back to their natural graphite formation.

Remember: a diamond is *not* forever; it's just a few million (or maybe billion) years. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
If you presume that the comet caused mana levels to heighten even more and for whatever was left untouched returned to its natural state, you could say its possible to re-create Orchalcum mines (especially where you first found them) simply by focusing a lot of Mana into that area.

So my idea:  Go ahead, get a group of ritual spellcasters and pump tons of power into a rock.  See what you find.

Then again I could be crazy.

Sure you can do this. The process is called Enchanting, and it seems to work remarkably well. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Or, with sufficient temperature and oxygen applied, just for a few minutes.

~J
Ancient History
Well, kiddies, here's time for my two cents...and why I started this thread.

If you had a mind to go back to the Cyberpirates! book, you'd run across a theory that magic changes the earth as it rises in level, just like it does to living things. Now, you might take this as an explanation on why, when mana spiked a little as the comet appeared, orichalcum suddenly cropped up. Or, you might say that orichalcum comes about in certain rare, natural spots where certain metals come together in places of relatively high magic, but the veins dissapear like the wooly mammoth when the magic drops, right?

But that's all background. The question is, would the orichalcum dissapear again? If you subscribe to any theory about it, the orichalcum showed up when the mana level rose...so, did the mana go back down after Halley's Comet passed, or did it remain high enough to stay?

Dunno. Was just wondering idly about it.
Demonseed Elite
The way I figured it, personally, was that the rising mana level on the Earth after the Comet's passing allowed in some cases for a natural magical reaction that extracted alchemical radicals from some elements in the Earth. In some rare areas, the radicals of copper, gold, silver, and mercury (the four metals that make up orichalcum) were present in the Earth along with a potent amount of magic (such as along a mana line), which allowed for a natural process of alchemizing orichalcum. It's not a common occurance that those requirements overlap though, so orichalcum veins are rare, and because of those conditions, it was also not terribly difficult for skilled geomancers to track down locations where it could occur (which Wuxing had many of). It was mined up fairly quickly, and while the mana level remains high enough for it to occur, the four radical-form elements are not found together with a mana line on other places of the Earth. Bringing the elements together with a mana line by man made means is rather impractical, since you might as well just alchemize it the traditional way, in a lab.

So, it's not that it went away, it's just that in the limited places it occured, it was extracted from the Earth rather quickly.
Ancient History
I see you've neglected to mention that "limited places" still adds up to roughly 60 metric tons of natural orichalcum...not counting Gwynedd, of course.

And that's the places they could reach.
Demonseed Elite
As far as mineral mining is concerned, 60 metric tons would be very limited. 2,600 metric tons of gold was mined in 1999 alone. Also keep in mind that the mined orichalcum is half as effective as synthetically alchemized orichalcum.

(Where's the 60 metric ton figure come from?)
Kagetenshi
Considering that orichalcum is supposed to be metallurgically impossible, I'd say 60 tonnes is quite a large quantity.

~J
Ancient History
Wuxing figures on their share of the market in Year of the Comet. Gotta love math.
Demonseed Elite
It absolutely is a large quantity of orichalcum, though still a limited quantity in the scope of mined minerals.

I'm still wondering where the 60 metric ton number comes from, because that is an awfully lot of orichalcum. Isn't that something like 75 trillion nuyen worth?

EDIT: I see the reference now, and wow, someone was underestimating the market impact when they wrote that.
Ancient History
p. 82, YotC. Wuxing's early estimates say they'll mine an even 12 metric tons, which their analysts place as being 20% of the available deposits.

So if everyone had their picks and shovels out and mined all of the orichalcum before the comet left (assuming the figure of 60 metric tons in toto was correct), unrefined you'd be looking at, hrm, 60,000,000 grams, units of natural orichalcum are 20 grams each, that 3,000,000 units of natural orichalcum; and assuming (ha ha) that every unit was sold at the stable price of 25,000 nuyen per unit that would be 75,000,000,000 nuyen.
Demonseed Elite
Yeah, which I'd firmly put in the same category of "Shadowrun math" as the NAN tribal population numbers. nyahnyah.gif
Halabis
Well where do you think they got the money to become such a big company (besides the Big D)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Halabis)
Well where do you think they got the money to become such a big company (besides the Big D)

That's somewhat like saying "well, how do you think he died (besides the bullet in his head)?"

~J
Demonseed Elite
Well, actually, I did just notice this in the game info section of YotC, page 149:

QUOTE

All known orichalcum deposits run dry, and those that have been located but not yet exploited mysteriously cease to exist.


So I guess it just breaks down into its constituent parts when the Comet finishes passing over. And presumably before much of it was mined and could totally screw up the world economy.

I'm assuming the mined orichalcum that was worked into something doesn't break down and mysteriously cease to exist, but I'm not going to try to wring much sense out of YotC.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Considering that orichalcum is supposed to be metallurgically impossible, I'd say 60 tonnes is quite a large quantity.

Considering that the universe under discussion has the entire planet being alive, I don't think it's that impossible. nyahnyah.gif
Kagetenshi
Given that Magic in the Shadows says that by all accounts it should be (despite not being that improbable in real life, IIRC, if not terribly exciting), I'd say that trumps your thinking there nyahnyah.gif

~J
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012