Full Version: Israel 2070
Rory, it's really funny how you get upset at every small remark I make, while massively and personally attacking everyone in here. What do you know about me, that justifies you insulting me? Get over yourself, already.
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| Rory, it's really funny how you get upset at every small remark I make, while massively and personally attacking everyone in here. What do you know about me, that justifies you insulting me? Get over yourself, already. |
I don't consider being insulted small. You called me a zealot. You ordered me around like you were the forum police. You did not add to the discussion. You came here to fuck with me, because you dislike what I had to say, and nothing more. You are the one who needs to get over himself. Can we discuss SR now?
Wow, Rory Blackhand, internet telepath. You so read my mind, dude.
Rory, we've asked you to go away. You have your thread for your...ideas...
This is working from a different paradigm altogether.
Go away, Rory. You are not wanted here.
This is working from a different paradigm altogether.
Go away, Rory. You are not wanted here.
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| (belated) Talia, I coulda sworn a law on that was passed recently by the Knesset. - Penta |
It's possible: I'm about a year or so out of date. If you've got the specifics, I'd be interested in reading them and seeing exactly to what kind of biotechnology that law is intended to apply.
Edit:
Just finished catching up on all of this thread ... and peoples, you're all not being fair to each other -- and the one who it's least fair against, currently, is Rory Blackhand. I don't agree with all your ideas, Rory. I don't agree with all your ideas either, Penta (intriguing username btw); or with all the ideas mentioned by many others in this thread. That doesn't stop me from recognising that in almost all cases they are well-thought-out ideas.
However, each of you is operating your speculation out of your own personal perspective and personal agenda. Some of these will clash ... but it's in the clashes that solider foundations can sometimes be unearthed. But if all you ever want is agreement with that agenda and all that follows from it, anyone who disagrees is going to be seen as either irrational, or immature, or just plain irritating -- and they'll be shunned; and everyone else will be freed of the requirement to take a disagreeing person seriously enough to learn anything they don't already know.
I was under the assumption that most countries armed forces were pretty lackluster, and it was only the Corps and select military units that can really afford to be wired up etc. That said, I can see a lot of Isreali citizens choosing to get cybered up to protect thier country rather than having it forced upon them by the state...
Are the Islamic states bordering Israel Sunni or Shiite? Depending on which, Israel could potentially have a big advantage in terms of magical muscle given the background in MitS. Shiites are very anti meta-human, perhaps another advantage for the Isrealis?
Finally, given the loss in world influence of the US and then its merger with the Canucks, I can see the Arab states being a lot more ballsy. A lot more armed incursions and attacks on Isreali patrols, but falling far short of outright war. No-one wants that in an already unstable region...
Are the Islamic states bordering Israel Sunni or Shiite? Depending on which, Israel could potentially have a big advantage in terms of magical muscle given the background in MitS. Shiites are very anti meta-human, perhaps another advantage for the Isrealis?
Finally, given the loss in world influence of the US and then its merger with the Canucks, I can see the Arab states being a lot more ballsy. A lot more armed incursions and attacks on Isreali patrols, but falling far short of outright war. No-one wants that in an already unstable region...
Only Iran and Iraq are Majority Shia. Everybody else is Sunni, there's a small Shia minority in Lebanon.
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Only Iran and Iraq are Majority Shia. Everybody else is Sunni, there's a small Shia minority in Lebanon. |
KK, scratch the magical superiority idea then...
There're Shia minorities all across the Gulf, but overall, Shiites are a smallish mnority compared to the world's muslim population.
Yonk. In case this gets invaded by trolls (not those, the other ones) again, I've set up a yahoo group. PM me if you'd like an invite.
But, um...Where were we?
But, um...Where were we?
Israeli equipment and the IDF.
I dunno whether I posted my idea of the IDF relying heavily on drones and robots here or in that other thread, but I think we should work from there. A drone may cost a bunch, but it can always be replaced. An israeli citize4n cannot.
Also, on Israeli demographics: I'd expect that there'd been another jewish Exodus, mainly from the US - or rather, the wreckage of it - and Europe during the first two Eurowars. Population should have surged due to that, and Israel should be heavily urbanized.
I like the idea of Israel taking in muslim (shia) metahumans and mages.
Since Israel is a tiny nation, that'd put up a lot of problems. I'd expect the West Bank and Gaza be colonized thoroughly by Jews, with the Palestinians either relocated or living in ghetto-like camps (some of them should still bethere; after all, Israel needs cheap labour. However, POWs from the Eurowars could also fill that role).
Economically, Israel should be in bad shape. The constant state of war, the hefty military budget, and investors being a bit shy since they'd rather not see someone nuke their investment to bits, should take their toll on Israel.
Of course, this also could mean there's a large jewish underclass filling that cheap labour niche I considered the Palestinians for.
I dunno whether I posted my idea of the IDF relying heavily on drones and robots here or in that other thread, but I think we should work from there. A drone may cost a bunch, but it can always be replaced. An israeli citize4n cannot.
Also, on Israeli demographics: I'd expect that there'd been another jewish Exodus, mainly from the US - or rather, the wreckage of it - and Europe during the first two Eurowars. Population should have surged due to that, and Israel should be heavily urbanized.
I like the idea of Israel taking in muslim (shia) metahumans and mages.
Since Israel is a tiny nation, that'd put up a lot of problems. I'd expect the West Bank and Gaza be colonized thoroughly by Jews, with the Palestinians either relocated or living in ghetto-like camps (some of them should still bethere; after all, Israel needs cheap labour. However, POWs from the Eurowars could also fill that role).
Economically, Israel should be in bad shape. The constant state of war, the hefty military budget, and investors being a bit shy since they'd rather not see someone nuke their investment to bits, should take their toll on Israel.
Of course, this also could mean there's a large jewish underclass filling that cheap labour niche I considered the Palestinians for.
Or mechanization/automation.
Things like construction, farming...You could use drones for a lot of the stuff you now use people for.
Sure they'd be expensive up-front, but they'd pay for themselves in lowered personnel costs.
What I see the IDF being like in terms of equipment:
1. The US had an isolationist fit, yes. However, the events of the NAN and such leave a lot of nations not-too-unsympathetic towards the Israelis. What Israel loses in terms of aid money, she gains in PR.
2. I expect heavy use of drones. IDF doctrine is focused upon "taking the pain" until reserves can be mobilized, then moving the war into enemy territory. Drones would be excellent for the active force, acting as a force multiplier for small units.
3. I disagree with the assumption that all militaries bar corporate are lackluster. The reality is that corp militaries are rarely larger than a battalion, and that battalion is spread about in pennypackets all over the world. Corp forces may have the shiniest gear, but they're outnumbered by just about anybody.
4. What I see the IDF being like towards cyber and bio: It's rare. Riggers, sure. The IAF and Navy would make a lot of use out of riggers in particular. Deckers would have a datajack, not much else. Most other people just do not need cyber/bio/nanotech/genetech. Smartgoggles do the job of a smartlink for the soldier on the ground, and his gear can replace the job of virtually any cyber also.
Things like construction, farming...You could use drones for a lot of the stuff you now use people for.
Sure they'd be expensive up-front, but they'd pay for themselves in lowered personnel costs.
What I see the IDF being like in terms of equipment:
1. The US had an isolationist fit, yes. However, the events of the NAN and such leave a lot of nations not-too-unsympathetic towards the Israelis. What Israel loses in terms of aid money, she gains in PR.
2. I expect heavy use of drones. IDF doctrine is focused upon "taking the pain" until reserves can be mobilized, then moving the war into enemy territory. Drones would be excellent for the active force, acting as a force multiplier for small units.
3. I disagree with the assumption that all militaries bar corporate are lackluster. The reality is that corp militaries are rarely larger than a battalion, and that battalion is spread about in pennypackets all over the world. Corp forces may have the shiniest gear, but they're outnumbered by just about anybody.
4. What I see the IDF being like towards cyber and bio: It's rare. Riggers, sure. The IAF and Navy would make a lot of use out of riggers in particular. Deckers would have a datajack, not much else. Most other people just do not need cyber/bio/nanotech/genetech. Smartgoggles do the job of a smartlink for the soldier on the ground, and his gear can replace the job of virtually any cyber also.
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| I disagree with the assumption that all militaries bar corporate are lackluster. |
Actually, I compltetely disagree with that as well. I always found the idea of corporations - whose main raison-d'etre, remember, is to MAKE money - and maintaining things such as stealth bomber squadrons (check what a Spirit needs in yearly maintainance cost!), large standing units, and tiop-of-the-line weaponry is pfretty much a money sink. No way any sensible shareholder would nod through such things. I mean, he'd trade a ton of money for - what? The corp's ability to launch nuclear weapons against foreign nations? I can see corps maintaining an arsenal of small, pocket nukes (especially corporations with more interest than moneymaking, like SK and Aztech), but large arsenals? Nukes aren't just any munition, they come with a half-life, and need regular (And costly) maintainance.
I'd think that most AAA and AA corporations operate a small force of mercenaries - think contractors, like the US employs them now, to protect their assets and show the occasional third-world government their palce. However, larger scale military hardware - tank battalions, AWACS planes, stealth bombers, strategic and tactical nukes - should still be restricted to governments (SK and Aztech could be considered an exception, since they're more than mere money-making machines, but even they would hardly operate even a single B-2 or any other such war machine, let alone a squadron of them).
Corp paramilitraries should operate under three guidelines:
1. as much bang for the buck as possible
2. low profile, low cost
3. if in doupt, bribing a general is much cheaper than deploying a tank squadron
State militaries, however, should be absolutely crucial for any nation, even in 2070. Not only to impress other nations and to project power, but also to have a way to keep overly ambitious corporations in check. You think corporations can take on states? Think again. And ask Mikhail Chodorkovsky, currrently residing in some work camp in Russia. He tried.
Who calls the shots is, ultimately, the onje who has the most guns. That's an universal truth of human society. And don't tell me Shadowrun makes the assumption it'S different. Ever read the little file in RA:S, about the conference of CEOs discussing what to do about Deus? Remember how it ended?
Ultimately, a corp should have a standing force in battalion size, excluding poorly armed and trained guards. Maybe some small warships for escort duty (with SR's piracy problem, that'd make sense, and even now, logistics companies whose ships frequently pass the Malacca strait are cosnidering convoy tactics and arming their ships, or deploying armed escorts, to protect against that area's notorious pirate gangs). Maybe some three or four fighter jets, again for escort duties, and some 20 to 30 armed (but mainly dual-use or cheap, second-hand) helicopters and Ospreys.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Also, on Israeli demographics: I'd expect that there'd been another jewish Exodus, mainly from the US - or rather, the wreckage of it - and Europe during the first two Eurowars. Population should have surged due to that, and Israel should be heavily urbanized. |
I can kind of see it for the US/UCAS since if you're having to move anyway it makes upping sticks to Israel a lot easier. I'm from the UK so I may have it wrong but I thought the largest Jewish populations in the US were from the north-east area, bits that stayed fairly intact. Going from that to the situation Israel was in seems a little out of the frying pan into the fire to me.
On Europe, the fighting stopped in central Germany and southern Austria as I remember it. Since those areas don't really have all that much in the way of Jewish minorities, what's the encouragement for communities in countries like the UK, France or the Netherlands for leaving their countries for Israel? Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's an totally unreasonable idea but I'd like to know a bit more about your thinking behind it.
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| No way any sensible shareholder would nod through such things. I mean, he'd trade a ton of money for - what? The corp's ability to launch nuclear weapons against foreign nations? |
Except that for nearly all of the megas and large corps the people on the board of directors or in the CEO slot own enough of the shares to call the shots and ignore any of the small time investors. Corporate Shadowfiles mentions something about how technically they're able to be voted off the board but they control so much stock that's just not happening so they can do what they like mostly.
I generally see the thinking being that if the competition has it, then we need it just in case. Plus they're nation states in their own right, sometimes you need a goon squad to lean on the ocassional small dinky country. Takes navies, so much trade is transported over the oceans but who's going to protect their flag carriers from piracy?
On 1: While many jews live in the big cities in the Northast, I doupt all do. Also, add to that that there're many jews in California and the West coast cities too, and those went through considerable turmoil! And the cities of the East Coast also suffered a great deal. NYC was flattened by a quake, but since not all of the population died, they'd have to relocate or rebuild too. I'm not saying all US jews moved, but a sizeable slice of the population, possibly one or two million, maybe even as many as three.
As for Europe ... there're jews in the eastern countries too, you know? Also, the AFA moved into Spain too, where they could be pushed back only after fierce fighting. Add to that that some states - parts of Germany, Italy, Britain, and particularily Ireland (where any sensible Jew would have packed their bags and moved, even if they were elves) - fell back into medieval fanaticism, which again would surely make Jews wonder whether there'd be another round fo death camps in store for them. Eager not to make the same mistake as their ancestors in the 1949s, I'd wager they'd flee rather than sit it out and hope for the best.
Finally, in Arab states, even today, there are jewish minorities. With Taleban-esque fundamentalists taking over, what would keep these Jews there? Nothinmg.- Especially if Israel woulde offer them a safe haven.
On 2.: SK, Ares, and Corss have majority shareholders. The others aren't, for all I know, not in one person's (or rather, creature's) hand. And even with Loffy, all minority shaqreholders selling stock would be a disaster, as it would devaluate his company and pretty much kill SK. Hence, all megas have to appease their investors, and I don't think a squadron of
1.000.000 maintainance per year (flight cost not included!) stealth bombers will be the thing tio make share holders happy.
Supportive troops, elite black ops units, briefcase nukes, and a small fleet of frigates and speedboats for escort dutiesw, maybe a sub or two for recon and smuggling/transporting sensitive material, are believable. Large-scale, high cost and maintainance equipment, like stealth fighters/bombers, large motorized brigades, and the likes, just don't. Any shareholder would rather see that ionvested into something that makes money, and doesn't just sit there and eat a ton of it daily.
If a mega really ever needed stealth fighters, or orbital weapons platforms, or really anything, all they neexded to do is donate a couple million once to the right politican's swiss bank account, and ask him to flatten whatever it was that bothers them. That's plausibly deniable, too.
As for Europe ... there're jews in the eastern countries too, you know? Also, the AFA moved into Spain too, where they could be pushed back only after fierce fighting. Add to that that some states - parts of Germany, Italy, Britain, and particularily Ireland (where any sensible Jew would have packed their bags and moved, even if they were elves) - fell back into medieval fanaticism, which again would surely make Jews wonder whether there'd be another round fo death camps in store for them. Eager not to make the same mistake as their ancestors in the 1949s, I'd wager they'd flee rather than sit it out and hope for the best.
Finally, in Arab states, even today, there are jewish minorities. With Taleban-esque fundamentalists taking over, what would keep these Jews there? Nothinmg.- Especially if Israel woulde offer them a safe haven.
On 2.: SK, Ares, and Corss have majority shareholders. The others aren't, for all I know, not in one person's (or rather, creature's) hand. And even with Loffy, all minority shaqreholders selling stock would be a disaster, as it would devaluate his company and pretty much kill SK. Hence, all megas have to appease their investors, and I don't think a squadron of
1.000.000 maintainance per year (flight cost not included!) stealth bombers will be the thing tio make share holders happy. Supportive troops, elite black ops units, briefcase nukes, and a small fleet of frigates and speedboats for escort dutiesw, maybe a sub or two for recon and smuggling/transporting sensitive material, are believable. Large-scale, high cost and maintainance equipment, like stealth fighters/bombers, large motorized brigades, and the likes, just don't. Any shareholder would rather see that ionvested into something that makes money, and doesn't just sit there and eat a ton of it daily.
If a mega really ever needed stealth fighters, or orbital weapons platforms, or really anything, all they neexded to do is donate a couple million once to the right politican's swiss bank account, and ask him to flatten whatever it was that bothers them. That's plausibly deniable, too.
Eh, I guess I just don't see Europe as much of a 'medieval fanaticism' as you do.
Guess so ... well, even if not, there'd still be the influx of Jews from Russia, Ukraine, and America. Not to mention the Balkans, the ME, and presumably India too (since it's a bit less habitable now, and they have a few Jews too, those would be more inclined to move, wouldn't they?).
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Guess so ... well, even if not, there'd still be the influx of Jews from Russia, Ukraine, and America. Not to mention the Balkans, the ME, and presumably India too (since it's a bit less habitable now, and they have a few Jews too, those would be more inclined to move, wouldn't they?). |
Yeah, more or less, I think.
Regardind the big Jewish population centers worldwide, as of 2005 the biggest homes are the US (1st, still superior to Israel), Israel (2nd) and France (3rd, with 700 to 900K people).
Various Euro countries and Russia also have some, but not more than 200K usually.
I think the biggest influx would come from the US (Western states mostly, NYC since it's been destroyed and maybe isn't as nice as before...)
But all in all they'd need a good reason to come to Israel then (SR) while they don't today. In SR's history Israel's not exactly the most secure haven... and while discriminated people in troubled countries are naturally drawn to Israel, this isn't really the case for people living in "safe" and wealthy Western democracies.
Actually the idea of an "American aliyah" is pretty cool, and could be featured as a strenghtening of the US-Israel relations through people (corpers, politicians) even though the UCAS stopped supporting Israel when the US went down the drain.
In response to the New York being destroyed issue, I was under the impression that it was only Manhattan that was toasted, with relatively minor damage to the rest of the boroughs.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| In response to the New York being destroyed issue, I was under the impression that it was only Manhatten that was toasted, with relatively minor damage to the rest of the boroughs. |
I think you're right.
But on the other hand, I can hardly see Manhattan leveled and Brooklyn unscathed... but you're right it's probably not enough to cause a massive exodus.
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