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Penta
....With netbook potential, but let's stay small in our dreams for now.

Here's how I see Israel as of 2070, absent any knowledge from SF or SR4 or any of that.

Actually, here's the first principles I'm moving from:

1. Democracy is firm, and not hard. Israel is small enough that you don't really need TV time like you do in the US, reducing campaign costs and reducing the amount of money needed.

2. Economically, Israel is back in the 1950s. Hostile Arab states surround it, there's regular terror from the Palestinians in the WB DMZ and Gaza (moving to the next step of the 1974 Staged Plan of the PLO), but it's small-scale stuff. Rationing is in force for petroleum, but its status as "Silicon Wadi" means that all of the corps have presences here, and get products to market here.

3. The Second Crash hurt, but Israel is, as always, an early adopter, and WMI took off well here (helped by the fact that 80% of Israelis have cellphones).

4. There's a lot of low-level nepotism, and a sort of relationship-based bureaucracy. What the Israelis call 'protektsia'

5. Siege Mentality. Israel is surrouinded by Arabs that hate it, and knows it.

6. Practically every Israeli adult carries some sort of pistol. Off-duty cops and soldiers carry Assault Rifles.

7. The 'Status Quo' has been maintained.

8. Genemods mean that Tay-Sachs is rapidly pulled from the Ashkenazi genome, raising the Jewish birth-rate by a lot.

More to come tomorrow.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Penta)
8. Genemods mean that Tay-Sachs is rapidly pulled from the Ashkenazi genome, raising the Jewish birth-rate by a lot.

I was under the impression that the Israeli Jewish population was sufficiently divorced from the Ashkenazi Jewish populations (which are primarily European and American) to not have to worry about Tay-Sachs at all. It's also a small enough disorder, incidence-wise, that even in afflicted populations, it doesn't so much as make a blip in the genepool. It's been a while since I've picked up a population genetics textbook, though.
Penta
Not so much, Hahnsoo. It's only because of massive pre-natal genetic screening at the moment.

That said:

I don't see Israel lapsing into a dictatorship, a military junta, or a theocracy between now and 2070. Period.

Believe it or not, it's hard to knock over a mature democracy.
---

Now, as far as Military-Society interaction:

1. Don't expect cyber. Israel's military will still, by necessity, be a conscript force...And you don't give cyber to conscripts.

2. The government can be very intrusive...Look at RL Japan and you'll see an example. *However*, shadowrunning is still possible.

Retaliatory attacks against the Arab states would be perfect for mercs.

Political shadowruns would be amazingly common as the fractured political scene in Israel leaves every party scrapping for info.

Corporate runs would be common, too; The kibbutzim aren't as strong as they were, and Israel is in an ideal location (educationally, physically, and otherwise) for research establishments, as in real life. Extractions are the name of the game.

Extraterritoriality is limited in Israel. In exchange for the usuals within their turf, corporations agree to contribute to defense, abide by limited environmental regulations (all the polluting stuff gets parked in Egypt), and have limits placed on their security forces. Not as bad as in the UK or the Tirs or such, but it's not as freewheeling as in North America.

Zionism was dead. Was being the key word.

In the madness after the Awakening, the idea that people still hate them came back to the Israeli consciousness, and Israel's grown a traumatized bunker mentality. Kitachon Bitachon, it's called. The Sacredness of Security.

The peace process died after the Awakening, as Israel focused on the struggle to adapt to the new world, something they did manage. It took riots, political polarization that was only healed by the Alliance for Allah trying to take out the country, and time, but it was healed.

The continuation of the Status Quo between religious and secular (maybe someone else could describe it?) has ensured some social peace.

Metahumans are accepted, with many coming from the Arab countries and, surprisingly, converting to Judaism (after a sustained campaign by the government).

Magic is...not really liked (it still creeps people out a bit), but accepted. Every child is tested for magical ability upon entering school at age 3 (preschool), entering kindergarten at age 5, at age 13, and before entry into the IDF at age 18; Those who test positive are offered special extra schooling by the government and corporations, and are enrolled in rigorous magical training when inducted into the IDF.

Magical personnel are dealt with holistically; Magicians are not placed in special units, but are instead placed with regular battalions in 'thaumateurgic platoons'.

Adepts, discovered through the same testing as Magicians (is that how SR does it?), are offered their choice of training paths. Krav Maga is popular among mundanes and Awakened alike, and there are even techniques for cybernetically-enhanced practitioners.

Gaza was abandoned in 2015 to the Palestinians; Jerusalem, on the other hand, is now almost entirely Jewish after Muslims exited during the riots that followed Alliance for Allah attacks during the Second Eurowars.

The Druse have hidden themselves in their mountain villages; They still are a part of Israeli society, but do not integrate as much as they did, making their living from harvesting telesma from the land.

The Bedouin of Israel have mostly settled in villages by now, encouraged by corporate activity. Unlike their Native American counterparts, they didn't have much in the way of a magical renaissance.

Is there anything I'm missing?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Penta @ Apr 10 2005, 04:00 PM)
Not so much, Hahnsoo. It's only because of massive pre-natal genetic screening at the moment.

Do you have a source for this? The major prenatal screening efforts are in the United States. Talking to an Israeli and Syrian pediatrician, both of them said it wasn't a concern for Israeli Jewish populations, not as much as the mediterranean blood disorders anyway.

EDIT: From the journals I've been reading, it seems that it is important for Tay-Sachs screening in immigrant communities of Ashkenazi Jews (who again, are primarily from Europe and America) who move to Israel. Also there seems to be several Arab mutations of the Tay-Sachs gene! Most of the passage of these recessive genes are due to the Founder Effect, which is why it's so prevalent among Ashkenazi Jewish populations (along with a lot of other diseases... Tay-Sachs is simply the one that most people read about in their biology textbooks). About 60% of Jewish women opt for Tay-Sachs testing, which is reduced from the American and European numbers (probably due to education and cultural factors, including religion... secular Jews are three times as likely to get tested). Men don't get tested (something like only 12 to 20 percent, depending on the article), which is rather stupid IMHO.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Penta)
Retaliatory attacks against the Arab states would be perfect for mercs.

Whilst I could see them outsourcing the near suicide missions to groups like 10K Daggers, I'm not sure if they'd do it to a large extent. Most of the time it's pretty obvious who'd be behind it, and sometimes they'd want it known to send the message. That's not to say it wouldn't happen under certain circumstances.

QUOTE
Extraterritoriality is limited in Israel.

Well we already have the precedent of France so I could see this easily happening. After holding out against the entire region in the past I can't seem them giving up such large powers without a fight.

QUOTE
The continuation of the Status Quo between religious and secular (maybe someone else could describe it?) has ensured some social peace.

Whilst I could see a fair bit being made up between the more centre extremists, if that makes any sense, there are some real whackos out there. Take a look at the Kahane-ists, Noam Federman and the like. These guys hate even the Jewish secular state as not being godly enough and want to start a war between Israel and the Arabs to act as the catalyst for the change they want to make to the country. Check out the PBS 'Israel's Next War' documentary for some really scary people.

QUOTE
The Druse have hidden themselves in their mountain villages; They still are a part of Israeli society, but do not integrate as much as they did, making their living from harvesting telesma from the land.

Any particular reason the Druze became recluses? They're one of the most integrated non-Jewish minorities at the moment, following their tradion of allegiance to whichever country they live in as I undertsand it. They have to serve conscription in the IDF - started at their request, have members that are senior officials in the military and government, and some figures I've seen said that 40% of the Druze population received their salaries from the varied security services, even more if you count pensions.

Just seems like quite a massive sea change for the whole community to withdraw. One of the few things I can think of is that since they keep their religion and holy texts a secret and that the uqqal's found something's in them that says XYZ is going to happen, which it did, and then you've got to pull back and wait for the relief column from China to arrive.
Talia Invierno
Israel is known in the bioethics community for having some of the slackest genetics experimentation laws in the world. Too many articles to list, take a glance through PubMed for some sources, although too many of the relevant abstracts are missing from this database. It's also been said that there are more IVF clinics per capita in Israel than in any other country in the world. [Edit: should add that in Israel, IVF treatment is fully subsidised.] There is a strong focus in most (all?) branches of Judaism toward healthy reproduction as a central part of female fulfilment: and the (general lack of) legalities and regulation may reflect this. (It's also leading to some focused kinship rabbinical discussions: edit: this might be of some interest.)

It's interesting though that of the countries that have the capability for germ-line engineering, most have no or little law governing it, and where law does exist, it's more often worded as guideline than as absolute. (Germany is one of the most restrictive in the world in this field.) To the best of my knowledge, Israel's moratorium on reproductive human cloning expired in 2003 (other kinds of human cloning were never banned); but embryonic stem cell research and germline gene manipulation were never legally regulated (although as in so many other countries, there are regular calls for needed legislation).
Penta
Useful info...

In reverse order: Talia, I coulda sworn a law on that was passed recently by the Knesset.

Flak: The Druse are deemed heretical by Islam, as you probably know. In a real "clash of civilizations", they're in a funny position. I was unsure how to deal with them, actually.

Re the religious/secular divide: The thing is, Federman and the like are a distinct minority. The typical Ultra-Orthodox reaction to the secular world is, anyway, to withdraw, not lash out. Meanwhile, there's no truck among the secular for pushing things. In all likelihood, the prospect of a renewed external threat will keep everybody from pushing the issue, anyhow.

Re retaliatory attacks: Yeah, but the last time we really faced this, it was the 1950s and there wasn't the PR cost. In the SR milieu, it may be more worth Israel's while to invest in mercs. That way, they can deny involvement...Everybody will know they did it, yeah, but it'll be in nobody's interest to say so, and so the message gets across while appearances are maintained. Finally, there's an increasing casaulty sensitivity after (and there was during) Lebanon, and I've not heard of any decline in that during the recent conflict.

Re EC: The thing is that I don't expect Israel to be quite as anti-corp as France, or as anti-foreigner. What their attitude is is that the state has certain prerogatives. Corporations set up shop, in their view, knowing that those prerogatives must be respected, and that certain measures must be taken to preserve the Land and the nation. Within that, they'll let corps do business. Indeed, if one assumes a continuing reform economically, I could see Israel being a good place for the corps to play. They'll accept limits on ET as a part of doing business.

Hahnsoo: I'll look over your links. I recall getting my info from Wikipedia (yeah, yeah) and some groups focusing on Tay-Sachs. I think they're down to, like, 10 cases in Israel throughout 2003.
Penta
I'll try more tomorrow, but am tired for now. I need food, I need sleep.

I also have 3 papers due by the end of April that I need to work on.

My general approach: The ideas put forth in the Israel 2065 thread were, to me, too stereotypical, or they elicited the 'Germany syndrome', "Let's do whatever seems cool, even if it makes no sense". I don't know Hebrew or Arabic, but I'm not clueless about the region, either. I'm doing my level best to keep RL political views away from this; What we might want to happen is less important than what it likely.

Regarding genetics: I could see it being loosely regulated, as with cyber and similar...But that's only so long as it was a far-off sort of thing. Once it's not, expect some fairly tough laws. What you do in the lab, well, eh.

What you do that might not stay in the lab...Not the same story.

Now, something to chew on overnight:

Somehow, Israel is going to make a push to clean up the contaminated areas, rebuild, and find an environmentally-friendly way (there's not a small green strain in Israel, from what I can see...The total mess in the rivers notwithstanding) to work with the Negev.

The question is, how? And when?
Omer Joel
QUOTE (Penta)
I don't see Israel lapsing into a dictatorship, a military junta, or a theocracy between now and 2070. Period.

A military Junta? possible, but not for long periods; militarism could be a very strong sentiment after major terror attacks, and there WAS a semi-dictatorship in the early 1950's; sure, there were elections, but Ben Gurion was quite a "strong ruler" to say the least. Just combine these two facts with economic depression and with a Lybian chemical attack, and you'll get the few years of martial law that I had in my version of history. But still, it won't last long. Not a Junta, just martial law and a very "strong" leader, until the normal chaos of the Israeli politics and society overthrow his rule.

Omer Joel
QUOTE (Penta)
My general approach: The ideas put forth in the Israel 2065 thread were, to me, too stereotypical, or they elicited the 'Germany syndrome', "Let's do whatever seems cool, even if it makes no sense". I don't know Hebrew or Arabic, but I'm not clueless about the region, either. I'm doing my level best to keep RL political views away from this; What we might want to happen is less important than what it likely.

I admit I was quite influenced by the general spirit of Shadowrun histories; but still, I had to fit it into the weird Cannon timeline. To say the truth, the MRP seems quite a logical development for me; look at the "Neshot HaKotel" (Women of the Wall) version of Judaism and at the more Reform Judaism views, add to that the Awakening and various new-age beliefs which are VERY popular in RL Israel and which are likely to continue to develop even further by the Awakening and mix it with a healthy dose of trade-unionism, social justice demands (remember the Wadi Saliv uprising in the 1950's and the "Israeli Black Panthers" in the 1970'd) and anti-corp activism and you'll get a socially-minded, awakened, semi-Jewish (in religios terms) political movement.

The rest (mostly chemical leaks and the MRPs seccession, the Messaih and the martial laws) were less likely; Though the Messiah idea was heavily inspired by the current right-winged extremists, and the mRP didn't secede on it's own - it was seperated in the heat of the 2034-2036 War.

Ofcourse, right-wing extremists are going to have major mojo by 2070...
Omer Joel
QUOTE (Penta)
Re the religious/secular divide: The thing is, Federman and the like are a distinct minority. The typical Ultra-Orthodox reaction to the secular world is, anyway, to withdraw, not lash out. Meanwhile, there's no truck among the secular for pushing things. In all likelihood, the prospect of a renewed external threat will keep everybody from pushing the issue, anyhow.

Federman belongs to a minority; unfortunately it's a very fanatic and well-armed minority.

And the Ultra-Orthodox sects try to enforce their views on the general population by passing Knesset rules (such as limiting abortions, preventing Jews from working on Saturdays, forcing citizens - since 1948 - to marry and divorce in the Rabbinate, which is quite opressive towards women, closing down the entire economy on certain holidays and so on). The majority of the population is too busy with the Israeli-Arab conflict and/or with economical survival to fight for the seperation of synagouge from state.

Omer Joel
QUOTE (Penta)
Now, as far as Military-Society interaction:

1. Don't expect cyber. Israel's military will still, by necessity, be a conscript force...And you don't give cyber to conscripts.

2. The government can be very intrusive...Look at RL Japan and you'll see an example. *However*, shadowrunning is still possible.

Political shadowruns would be amazingly common as the fractured political scene in Israel leaves every party scrapping for info.

About Cyber, remember that most Israeli citizens serve "reserve duty" ("Miluim") for one month (that's IRL; by 2070 it'll be atleast 6 weeks IMHO) per year between the ages 21 and 48 (or 50 for some units); so cyber would be a long-term investment.

And yes, Israel is a beraeucracy. Intrusive and with an all-powerful government. You could run the shadows, it just requires some more fast talk, forged documents and bribes. I totally agree with you on this point.

And political shadowruns would be the name of the game in Israel, IMHO. So many parties, factions and sub-factions, so much dirt to discover and sell. Maybe even political assassinations and sabotage (arranging for "embarrassin accidents" infront of the cameras). I agree with you on this point as well smile.gif
Omer Joel
QUOTE (Penta)
Somehow, Israel is going to make a push to clean up the contaminated areas, rebuild, and find an environmentally-friendly way (there's not a small green strain in Israel, from what I can see...The total mess in the rivers notwithstanding) to work with the Negev.

The question is, how? And when?

How? Well, Israel has a "strong government" in 2070, similar to the one in the 1950's; this kind of government is usually into big project, even "terraformation" projects.

First, they'd build several big fusion reactors eaither in Eylat or near Ashkelon/Ashdod, and use their electricity to power massive desalinization (sp?) plants nearby; the desalinized water would be transported to the Negev in huge pipes, and will be used to water massive forests of trees gengineered for high soil salinity, dry air and temperature extremes. Same with other crops.

Slowly the climate will change; rainfall has already increased in the northern Negev due to the small cultivation projects between 1948 to 2005.

Green? I don't know, but Zionism is into "cultivating the wilderness", not preserving it as an ecosystem.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Penta)
The Druse are deemed heretical by Islam, as you probably know. In a real "clash of civilizations", they're in a funny position. I was unsure how to deal with them, actually.

Which is why they get special dispensation to pretend to be a member of whatever version of Islam is the majority in the local area. If the Arab states lean on them though I could see a lot of them moving to Israel. A highly patriotic ethnic minority that can pass for local in the sorrounding countries would be a major asset to people like Mossad - that's part of what made them so good in the beginning when Jews from other countries emigrated, but then their kids didn't pick up the skills as much so it tailed of to some extent. Couple that with people that stayed on by covertly pretending to be Muslim and you've got some possibly friendly people in enemy territory.

QUOTE
Re the religious/secular divide: The thing is, Federman and the like are a distinct minority.

So are people like Humanis and Alamos 20K, but the fact that they're a minority but hold such extreme views makes them fun to play with. Just pulling numbers out of my ass, say for every forty people that take the awakening/metahumans and the Alliance for Allah in their stride, there's one that decides this is just wrong and drifts in to the far right.

QUOTE
In the SR milieu, it may be more worth Israel's while to invest in mercs. That way, they can deny involvement...Everybody will know they did it, yeah, but it'll be in nobody's interest to say so,

Uh, not sure what you quite mean by not in anyone's interest to say it was them. Both sides hate each other passionately, and it's not like the Arab extremists have ever needed any proof to blame anything that goes wrong on Israel - apparently even AIDS is their fault. smile.gif There's no real downside to blaming the Israeli's since that just helps stoke the resentment. Special cases like where they're trying to make it look like internal squabbles would be one situation where I could see mercs shining - although publicly Israel'd still get the blame most likely. wink.gif

QUOTE (Penta)
Somehow, Israel is going to make a push to clean up the contaminated areas, rebuild,

If you mean from the Libyan chemical attacks, then not all of it. Threats 2 says that some areas were too costly so they simply evacuated everyone amd barricaded them off until 2070 when they'll have cleared up enough by themselves. Makes a few handy little oasis of non-governmental control to work with.

QUOTE (Omer Joel)
Not a Junta, just martial law and a very "strong" leader, until the normal chaos of the Israeli politics and society overthrow his rule.

I could be wrong, but isn't that what a junta is - a group of military types that take over the running of the country after they've taken power? smile.gif

QUOTE (Omer Joel)
And the Ultra-Orthodox sects try to enforce their views on the general population by passing Knesset rules (such as forcing citizens - since 1948 - to marry and divorce in the Rabbinate)

Don't a lot of people just get around this by going over to Cyprus for a couple of days and get married there? From what I vaguely remember, marriages there have to be recognised by the government so it's a handy way of sidestepping the Rabbinate. Other things like not being able to work you can work around by hiring none Jews although it's a pain in the ass.

QUOTE
The majority of the population is too busy with the Israeli-Arab conflict and/or with economical survival to fight for the seperation of synagouge from state.

How's Shinui doing nowadays? I remember reading how they're pretty much the closest thing to a secular party that wanted to scale back the Rabbinate in a lot of areas a while back and did respectably in elections a few years back but then never heard anything else about them again.

QUOTE (Omer Joel)
First, they'd build several big fusion reactors eaither in Eylat or near Ashkelon/Ashdod, and use their electricity to power massive desalinization (sp?) plants nearby;

Desalination. But yeah, fusion and desalination plants are going to be Israel's dream industries. Just make sure you ring them with lots of security. Does Israel get much

Since solar power seems to have progressed a fair bit, according to Rigger 3 it can help power vehicles and drones, I could also see a lot of homes rigging up their own solar panels on their roofs to help with domestic supply. Saves money and makes them less dependent on the national grid in case anything goes wrong - both sentiments that I think would fit nicely. smile.gif
Penta
<grin> Thanks Joel. Adding that in...

As far as a green streak, it seems (historically) to go both ways. On the one hand, there's a "back to the land" streak, best found in the kibbutzim. On the other, it's more a thought of domination than stewardship.smile.gif

Re the haredim (ultra-orthodox): That's a debate I dislike touching, being an outsider. But, I will say this: That is what every group does. The haredim are not particularly unique, and I am unsure how much of a threat they are. They still have to deal with the voters. You're speaking (I'd bet) from the perspective of someone opposed to them...And the reality is, there's a habit of demonization. What's the reality? Shabbat restrictions came up in the late 70s, AIUI. There was actually quite a majority back then, across parties, towards keeping them. The Rabbinate is a bureaucracy like any other, the religious equivalent of the DMV. nyahnyah.gif And most people don't seem to see it as much of a problem, so they don't care. Or if they do care, they don't care enough to speak up.

But, dragging that back to topic: I can't see the situation changing one way or the other. The Rabbinate will probably loosen up, the idea being that compromises must be made in order to preserve the general structure. (Not enough, I suppose, to please Reform Jews, but probably enough that Conservatives could work with them.) It'll just take 20 years. By the 2020s, I figure, the Rabbinate will be wrapping itself in knots over the issues presented by the Awakening and similar, so that nibbles are made to current positions on current issues.

Re Israel as bureaucracy: Not all-powerful, probably. But, more powerful than the UCAS counterpart? Yes. A useful thought is that Shadowrunning could easily fall afoul of the 1945 Emergency Regulations; Something most people would never notice.

Re cyber, miluim, etc: I disagree. One, emigration. How do they know the guy will actually pull their obligation? Two, that's a bit much of an anchor for most people. They'd prefer not to be reminded of their military obligation every time they look at themselves. Three, what do you do when someone retires or is discharged for some reason? Fourth, surgery expenses. Finally, maintenance.

In my next post, I'll wander through history, using SR3 as the starting block. (What that means: No assassination.)
Penta
FlakJacket: Shinui had this bright star, then died.

They're not so much secular as anti-Haredi. Even that is fungible, though.

They may wind up flaming out in the next elections, as their anti-Haredi schtick hasn't really had legs.

Re the contaminated areas: That's unlikely. It was the center of the country that got hit. Governmental control will likely have stayed and been harsh.

Now, re power: Fusion is possible, but there's the question of where you'd put them. Ashkelon is vulnerable to rocket attacks from Gaza. Eilat is vulnerable to attacks from Jordan, Saudi, and Sinai.

Solar I could see. Perhaps as a required part of the building code for new structures. Eventually, it'll wind up that there's the electrical grid we all know and love, supplemented by everybody generating their own power. If your solar cells fail, no problem, you pull from the grid and pay back in power later.
Penta
Now, history.

2004-2011: Shocked Out of Fantasy

The Libyan chemical strike and the retaliatory nuclear strike in 2004 could be said to have finally crushed whatever remained from the Oslo process of the idea of a peaceful Middle East. The evacuations of much of the center of the country and the expense of remediation were traumatic to many Israelis. In the 2007 elections, the Tekuma (Resurrection) Party wins a slim majority in the Knesset, on a platform focusing on cleaning up corruption and restoring the areas contaminated by the Libyan chemical strike.

Initially, they manage to pull both off; By 2010, much of the center of the country is safe for human habitation, and major anticorruption efforts have brought new credit to Israel in global financial markets. In the retrenchment required by the remediation efforts, Gaza is evacuated of all Jews, as are many small Jewish communities in the West Bank, as settlement focuses on East Jerusalem and large communities in the West Bank.

However, the coming of VITAS begins to end the "happy time". Israel is able to contain the virus; However, it does so only by sealing off Israel and the Golan from its neighbors in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, the West Bank, and Gaza. It is barely a blip to Israelis, who do most of their trade by sea and air, but is crippling to the West Bank and Gaza. In Palestinian refugee camps, the medical system is overloaded, and thousands die within the first weeks. It barely merits a blip on newscasts anywhere, as the rest of the world reels from the impact of the virus.

Nonetheless, by the end of 2011, the virus has begun to burn itself out in the region, and Israel's land borders are reopened. Things look bright.

Then, December 24, 2011 comes.
---

And here I stop for now. Next up, the Awakening.
HMHVV Hunter
The Awakening should be interesting. I have to admit, I don't know much about Judaism, but I'm interested to see how the more religious elements of Israel responded to metahumans and magic coming back. I mean, isn't this the religion that gave us Lilith, the demon mother?
Penta
IIRC, Lilith is apocryphal.
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (Penta)
IIRC, Lilith is apocryphal.

Meaning? question.gif
Sharaloth
Maning not part of official canon. It's like BeCKS is to Shadowrun (to use an analogy pertinent to this forum), not part of the official rules, but talked about and used anyways. Lilith is not, technically, an actual judaic mythological figure. The stories she's mentioned in are outside the canon texts, and so aren't counted as authentic or 'real' accounts.
Penta
Apocryphal is best defined here. - Thanks to Wikipedia.

And Wikipedia explains Lilith, too. Essentially, Lilith is only mentioned (and not by name, even) in Isaiah. The inference to her in Genesis isn't actually there.

Basically, Lilith has no foundation, anywhere.

Now, re the history. I'm Catholic. My knowledge of Judaism isn't that great.

I'd like help with the Awakening, to cover for that.smile.gif
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Penta)
The Libyan chemical strike and the retaliatory nuclear strike in 2004 could be said to have finally crushed whatever remained from the Oslo process of the idea of a peaceful Middle East.

Well it's an open question whether the Olso peace process ever actually happened since it's comes after the Shadowrun continuity split from our history. I'm eagerly awaiting Shadows of Asia to see what Tony has done with the region.
FlakJacket
Sorry to double post but when the military was in power, do you think that they'd change many of the laws or just use emergency powers and not change things much? One idea I had for them was that they upped the qualifying threshold in the proportional representation system from 2% to something a little higher like 5 or 6%.

This'd introduce a lot more stability in government, stability being something the military always likes, and has the added benefit of reducing the power of the extremist fringe votes. Of course it might mean a loss of playability if you take out all the election wrangling so I'm kinda devided on the idea. :/
Penta
Well, that's the thing.

The IDF is wholly unlikely to coup. Why?

Because most of the force is conscripts. Conscripts reflect the society.

This is a society that would be unlikely to give up democracy.
FlakJacket
Same thing could be said of Germany and the other countries that had short lived dictatorships.

If things were going completely to hell and people lost faith in the bickering politicians, a general with enough charisma might be able to make the case that action was needed right now and take over for a short stated period - the "I'll get out by such and such a date" definately being needed I'd think.
Penta
I think most people understand that politicians will bicker. That's the nature of democracy.

I'd think, also, that in Israel's case...If things got that bad, the Arab states would squish it.
Rory Blackhand
Let's see if we can light some crack up here. I'm going to give the courtesy of giving my opinion and why on the ideas posted instead of purely assinine flaming and belittlement.

1. I am not so sure a democracy adds color to Israel 2070. How about a religious cabal in command of a thourougly efficient military? The Israelis elected Sharon to get tough, this tells me they are tired of the low intensity conflict and want militant leadership to solve the problem once and for all. Israel is a democracy, but under Jewish law. You can't divorce the two aspects. It would be more colorful to say the religious orthodox assumes power in my opinion.

2. I agree that no corp controls Israel. It would be more like Tir Na Nog, where the state runs the show. Economicly back to the 50s? Not a chance in my opinion. The rest of the middle east falls to ruin without oil, but the Israelis are built on cutting edge technology. The economy is robust in 2070. This allows the state to provide for the citizens living in the "promised land".

3. A contradiction with 2. Either they bounce back or they are in the 50s. I say they the most industrious people on earth and bounce back very hard and fast.

4. The low level nepotism is due to the very small size of the population. This does not seem to be important to even mention in SR.

5. Absolutely. The Arabs are out there ready to kill any Israeli that ventures out. They constantly shell and fire rockets into Israel from every border. They have access to plenty of weapons too. Outside of Israel it is basicly a wilderness of desert and roving bands of Jihadis. This adds color and a place to run merc campaigns on either side of the conflict.

6. No, every Israeli carries an UZI or better. Heavy weaponry does not raise an eyebrow. Every citizen is trained for combat and preparedness is the watch word. "Never again".

7. It is too boring to say the Palestinians would still be struggling to carve out more of the promised land. Either they have taken over, there is a third state in Palestine, or they have been evicted and are waging Jihad to reclaim the land is much more fantasy based and fantastic, as always, in my opinion. There is a program to relocate them now. It is nothing new, nor is it something that should shock us considering all the precedent for it.

8. The majority of Israelis are shepardic. Is it worth mentioning at all?

Now on to more comments:

QUOTE
I don't see Israel lapsing into a dictatorship, a military junta, or a theocracy between now and 2070. Period.


I do. It is speculation. If you believe the land will change into a holy land or promised land then it would not be a "collapse" it would be a natural ascension to theocracy. Keep in mind the fantastic changes aspect of SR. Think outside the box. Status quo, same old democracy, etc.. boring, zzzzzz

QUOTE
Believe it or not, it's hard to knock over a mature democracy.


Explain the US fracturing, Canada, Germany, UK, Ireland, etc... You missed the boat here. Think colorful and interesting.


QUOTE
Don't expect cyber. Israel's military will still, by necessity, be a conscript force...And you don't give cyber to conscripts.


Yes you do if the conscripts are the only line of defense you have between destruction and life. Think about it. Thousands of players have designed cyber warriors. GM "Where did he get that cyber?" Player "I fought in the Euro wars, I got my leg blown off and had cyber replacement...etc.." It only makes sense if the Israeli army is to be tough enough to withstand wave after wave of Jihadis they will be mangled and will want as many mods as possible. A tech advanced nation like Israel will have it in spades, and it will some of the best in the world. Add in Tir style magical properties from the promised land and you get a heavily armed society living under siege.

QUOTE
The government can be very intrusive...Look at RL Japan and you'll see an example. *However*, shadowrunning is still possible.


Sure running the shadows is possible, even open and encouraged maybe? How about expanding Sar-El? What about high risk combat assignments using foriegn volunteers for out of country ops all over the region? Deniable assets.

QUOTE
Corporate runs would be common, too; The kibbutzim aren't as strong as they were, and Israel is in an ideal location (educationally, physically, and otherwise) for research establishments, as in real life. Extractions are the name of the game.


Sure, why not? With no resources, maybe Israel procures fresh talent this way, but that leaves the fact that they aren't Jewish, unless you add the caveat of extracting Jews from all over the world.

QUOTE
Extraterritoriality is limited in Israel. In exchange for the usuals within their turf, corporations agree to contribute to defense, abide by limited environmental regulations (all the polluting stuff gets parked in Egypt), and have limits placed on their security forces. Not as bad as in the UK or the Tirs or such, but it's not as freewheeling as in North America.


Absolutely. I think the corps will provide site security, but not man the walls so to speak. That is the trade off for "limited" extraterritoriality. No poluting the promised land. Do they dump on their neighbors? Sure why not? Add insult to the flames of war.

QUOTE
The peace process died after the Awakening, as Israel focused on the struggle to adapt to the new world, something they did manage. It took riots, political polarization that was only healed by the Alliance for Allah trying to take out the country, and time, but it was healed.


This avoids the tough question of how did it end? I say the Pals get evicted and the whole middle east is on a Jihad. Great story with a lot of potential.

QUOTE
The continuation of the Status Quo between religious and secular (maybe someone else could describe it?) has ensured some social peace.


I can describe it, boring.

QUOTE
Magic is...not really liked (it still creeps people out a bit), but accepted. Every child is tested for magical ability upon entering school at age 3 (preschool), entering kindergarten at age 5, at age 13, and before entry into the IDF at age 18; Those who test positive are offered special extra schooling by the government and corporations, and are enrolled in rigorous magical training when inducted into the IDF.


Yes it is accepted. I say the whole land gives power to Jews just like Tir does to the elves. I would say magic is huge. Maybe it is their edge against the hordes of Islam that have wiped out anything but human mundanes?

QUOTE

Magical personnel are dealt with holistically; Magicians are not placed in special units, but are instead placed with regular battalions in 'thaumateurgic platoons'.


Sure. But they are placed in special units as well. Not all of them are boring healers. Mossad is great with stealth and infiltration. Sayerat units are offensive speicalists, etc...

QUOTE
Gaza was abandoned in 2015 to the Palestinians; Jerusalem, on the other hand, is now almost entirely Jewish after Muslims exited during the riots that followed Alliance for Allah attacks during the Second Eurowars.


I could settle for this. Is the third temple built? Is it the source of Jewish power? Could that be the trigger for transforimng the land into a beautiful oasis? A land of milk and honey? Think big, think fantasy.

QUOTE
The Bedouin of Israel have mostly settled in villages by now


No. no, no no, no. This is just fundamentaly against the grain of SR. Do not fuck with the Bedouin. They are the nomads. Kings of the desert. I can acept some of your other lack luster suggestions, I outright agree with many, but never the beduin "settled" in SR.



Now those are my suggestions. Instead of flaming me for mine. Wouldn't it be better if there was some feedback? Critisism is part of that, but personal attacks are just wrong. I'll react to you the way you come at me, player.
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (Rory Blackhand)


QUOTE
The Bedouin of Israel have mostly settled in villages by now


No. no, no no, no. This is just fundamentaly against the grain of SR. Do not fuck with the Bedouin. They are the nomads. Kings of the desert. I can acept some of your other lack luster suggestions, I outright agree with many, but never the beduin "settled" in SR.

They're also already covered in "Target: Wastelands." It says that they're still nomads (and some of them veeeeeeeeeery traditionalist Muslims).
Penta
Goddammit, I'm trying to go off of reason, not drooling fantasy, Rory. Go away. mad.gif
Rory Blackhand
QUOTE
Goddammit, I'm trying to go off of reason, not drooling fantasy, Rory. Go away.


After I posted a reasonable post all you have to offer is this? I don't see any reason at all, kid.
Penta
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)
QUOTE (Rory Blackhand @ Apr 11 2005, 09:52 PM)


QUOTE
The Bedouin of Israel have mostly settled in villages by now


No. no, no no, no. This is just fundamentaly against the grain of SR. Do not fuck with the Bedouin. They are the nomads. Kings of the desert. I can acept some of your other lack luster suggestions, I outright agree with many, but never the beduin "settled" in SR.

They're also already covered in "Target: Wastelands." It says that they're still nomads (and some of them veeeeeeeeeery traditionalist Muslims).

Reading the reference, T:W seems to be speaking of the Bedouin in what is now Saudi Arabia.

The Bedouin in Israel are much different. They've already been mostly-settled in unrecognized, randomly-placed villages for decades.

What I'm thinking of is corporate and governmental pressure to move into planned, actually zoned and serviced towns.
Penta
QUOTE (Rory Blackhand)
QUOTE
Goddammit, I'm trying to go off of reason, not drooling fantasy, Rory. Go away.


After I posted a reasonable post all you have to offer is this? I don't see any reason at all, kid.

I don't appreciate being addressed as if I am a 12-year-old.

I recall posting at the beginning of this thread that I am doing my damnedest to avoid scenarios like you posit. That is how we got crap like the Germany SB.

Please, respect that. If you can't...Go away.
Omer Joel
QUOTE (Penta)
Re Israel as bureaucracy: Not all-powerful, probably. But, more powerful than the UCAS counterpart? Yes. A useful thought is that Shadowrunning could easily fall afoul of the 1945 Emergency Regulations; Something most people would never notice.

Re cyber, miluim, etc: I disagree. One, emigration. How do they know the guy will actually pull their obligation? Two, that's a bit much of an anchor for most people. They'd prefer not to be reminded of their military obligation every time they look at themselves. Three, what do you do when someone retires or is discharged for some reason? Fourth, surgery expenses. Finally, maintenance.

The Israeli bureaucracy isn't all-powerful (that term is reserved for the military and "securitist" parts of the government, especially the SHABAK who have powers that'll make most FBI agents drool); it's quite dominant, overbearing and omnipresent, however. FAR more powerful than the UCAS counterpart, but not nearly as powerful as Russia's neo-Stalinist ("National Supreme Soviet") one.

And running afoul of the TAKSHACH (Takanot Shaat Cherum, "Emergency Regulations" from 1945) would mean that if a runner gets tangled with the governmental security forces they could hold him in "administrative custody", that is 3 months without a judge's approval, much more with a very short court processing, and they could torture him with impunity. as I said, Israeli security forces (mostly SHABAK but, to a lesser degree, the police as well) have powers that most UCAS forces would drool over.

Also, considering the nationalistic and "securitist" mindframe that dominates the Israeli population nowadays, and that will probably stay in place in the 2070's as well, most combative soldiers would be proud of their cyber; it'll be a reminder of them being heroes; Anyway, most soldiers (Sayarot excluded) would have light cyber if at all - smartlinks, plastic bone lacing and maybe boosted reflexes.
Omer Joel
QUOTE (Penta)
Now, re power: Fusion is possible, but there's the question of where you'd put them. Ashkelon is vulnerable to rocket attacks from Gaza. Eilat is vulnerable to attacks from Jordan, Saudi, and Sinai.

So place the plants in the middle of contaminated Tel Aviv, and make them automated or semi-automated (with the employees living in sealed habitats). This way attacks will be unlikely unless the NIJ gets very long-range rockets, not to mention the contamination serving as a defence against ground assault.
Omer Joel
QUOTE (Rory Blackhand)
4. The low level nepotism is due to the very small size of the population. This does not seem to be important to even mention in SR.

6. No, every Israeli carries an UZI or better. Heavy weaponry does not raise an eyebrow. Every citizen is trained for combat and preparedness is the watch word. "Never again".

same old democracy, etc.. boring, zzzzzz

Think big, think fantasy.

No need to start pointless flame wars. You want you Shadowrun world to be summed by the sentance "think big, think fantasy". I prefer moderate destopia. It's nothing but a difference in our taste for game atmosphere.

Nepotism isn't due to population size (the 6 millions IRL aren't THAT small), it's part of the system. Part of the political culture. Israelis like to take care of their families and pals (especiallt friends from military days); the political system reflects this. Add to that the moderate level of corruption, and you'll get the multi-factional, sleazy nature of Israeli politics.

Contrary to popular belief, Israel rarely uses Uzis IRL, except for a few applications (special forces and security, not military). Assault rifles are massively preferred over pistols/smgs/shotguns (shotguns are rare in Israel) by most military personnel; even officers prefer a carbine over a pistol. And yes, Israelies are used to see alot of soldiers and gun around them. Oh, and we don't use AK-47's; we use their Galil variant, which fires Nato 5.56's instead of Soviet rounds; M16 are far more common IRL than Galils, however. In 2070 they'll use an entirely new gun; maybe an Ares creation, maybe an IMI Inc one, maybe a joint project of these two corps.

Annd democracies aren't boring if run right by the GM; the more factions there are, the more interesting they get. Alot of dirt to dig, alot of embasrrasing "accidents" to arrange for, alot of sleazy politicians willing to pay alot of cred (or will Israel skill use Shekels in 2070?) to hurt their opponents.
Critias
QUOTE (Rory Blackhand)
I'm going to give the courtesy of giving my opinion and why on the ideas posted instead of purely assinine flaming and belittlement.

Hey, wow. Good job. You did mix in some opinion there, instead of keeping it "pure" flaming and belittlement. Way to go. Thumbs up. Even with a subject you feel strongly about (which you obviously do) and seem to be fairly educated in (or at least able to BS well), you just can't help yourself, and you've gotta toss in "player," "kid," "lack luster suggestions," "boring, zzzz" and crap like that. It's amazing what a piece of work you are.

Have you ever tried not to be a prick, despite being protected by the anonymity of the internet? On some other board, maybe (since we have yet to see it here)?
Penta
<sigh> Rory is sucking out all my enthusiasm for doing this. I'm wishing a moderator would come by and slap people.

Moving along...

Fusion...I think TA would have been one of the first places cleaned up, for obvious reasons. That said, while there are places to put it (an obvious solution to me would seem to be to have it replace the already old and creaky reactor at Dimona), I can't think of many.

Um, before we were so rudely interrupted, where were we?
torzzzzz
I'm sorry but I seem to have read the wrong thread thinking it was the other one about israel erm has Rory taken them all over with the same posts? it shows the power of cut and paste!


torz x sarcastic.gif
hermit
Rory, your style isn't welcomed here. Please stop.

QUOTE
I'm sorry but I seem to have read the wrong thread thinking it was the other one about israel erm has Rory taken them all over with the same posts? it shows the power of cut and paste!
rotfl.gif grinbig.gif biggrin.gif rotfl.gif grinbig.gif

Luv ya. smile.gif
torzzzzz
hehehehehe well it needed to be said!

torz x wink.gif
Penta
Thanks torz, that brought a needed smile to my face. smile.gif If the moderators could help, it'd be appreciated...

Now then, let me restate my 'basic concepts', if you will, for an SR setting I might design:
  • I use the basic principles of political science, international relations, and so forth. None of this is likely to change, even with all that SR puts forth.
  • Dystopia can be fun, but only up to a certain point. The typical dystopia overdoes it.
  • Corporate power has peaked by 2060. It was at its peak until Bug City, after which the phenomenon of Dunkelzahn and the Renraku Arcology provided room for government to reassert itself. The system is now in flux, with nations regaining some of their former prestige.
  • Cyberware is not universal. Magic is actually quite rare, given the population percentages quoted by canon SR. Most people - the vast majority in fact - are unaugmented mundanes. (Unaugmented excludes the datajack, which is the only piece of cyberware which I could define as being merely exceptional instead of rare on a larger scale.) It is only because of what shadowrunners do that they see more of either.
  • Life for most people in the middle class has changed only in small details from what we know now. Yes, even with magic, metahumans, etc. The basic rhythms of life have not changed. The way people work (as in, psychologically, sociologically) has not changed, regardless of social class.
  • Society is neither significantly more socially conservative nor more liberal than what it is now. (SSG be damned, in some respects. Whoever wrote the societies section had been drinking too much from the Michael Moore kool-aid, IMHO.)
  • As society globalizes, it will become socially more conservative than what Europeans (in particular) and many North Americans are used to. Why? Because the vast majority of the world is more conservative, and that has not changed with development, defying a lot of theses. But, as I posit above, it will not become significantly more conservative, merely a matter of degrees.
  • Dystopia does not mean "the world is shit. Shit is the world. All is Shit." SR society is dystopian in that it is larger, more anonymous. It is dehumanized in the way that the modern city is. That does not mean that Big Brother rules, in corporate or government guise. It does not mean that religion has changed much or is commonly corrupt or has lost influence. It means that life is uncertain, that one cannot predict what the week or month to come will bring, in a societal sense. And uncertainty is the most frightening thing you can inflict on a person or a society.
  • SR is a world careening from one crisis to another. Where people have things to latch onto (family, faith), they will. Desperately. That is what people do.
  • Democracy, once you get through a generation with it, is unlikely to fall. (Germany is not a counterargument. Weimar lasted 12 years before Hitler.)

Gah, manifesto over.

What does this mean for Israel and generally?
  • I would argue that most people in the military do not have cyberware. SOTA 2063 points out why, too. (Even with Israel's system of about two years conscript service, then a month's service called up from the reserves each year, it wouldn't pay for itself.) Most people in the world do not have cyberware. It is not like having 3 heads, but it is not common, and most people in the world still don't like the idea of replacing parts of you with technology (cyber or bio), or "enhancement" like that. The datajack is accepted because it is so necessary and ubiquitous, but even then, it is not entirely liked.
  • Set aside the Matriarchy, Religious Theocracy, etc. ideas. (Besides the fact that they sound stupid, things like the Iranian revolution (which is really what the theocracy idea is supposed to create) are the sort of things that happen once, then never again.)
  • Generally, the more romantic the notion, the more implausible it actually is.

That does not mean cool things can't happen. One of the things Israel has going for it as setting is that, even with all the misconceptions, everybody knows about it. Most of the people who play SR come from a Western background. Even if you're atheist, it's hard not to have heard stories from the Bible.

This is where a lot of that happened. A lot of the holy sites, besides having a truly awesome background count, probably sit on ley lines (or whatever they're called). I could see an argument that all of Israel is basically criscrossed by em, with Jerusalem being a nexus of em, and the Temple Mount (in a literary nod to its classical status as the center of the world) being the centerpoint of the nexus.

Oh, and before anybody gets any ideas? Keep in mind that there's been a rabbinical prohibition for a long time against Jews stepping onto the Temple Mount; the idea being that nobody knows where the Holy of Holies might have been. Similarly...If we're talking religious fundamentalism, it should also be kept in mind that the orthodox view is that the Third Temple will not be built except when the Messiah comes to Earth. When that happens...We'll really know.smile.gif

Moving away from crackpot end-of-days fantasies, though, other things you can play with using Israel as a setting:
  • The ultimate clash of cultures. This would be a place where the ancient and modern sit cheek-by-jowl, where the Eastern and New Age philosophies that so dominate SR as we know it run headlong into the Monotheistic religions and Abrahamic philosophical ideas.
  • This is a place where they'll kill for something that happened hundreds of years ago. Less applicable to Israel than the broader Mideast, but still applicable in an oblique sense. When you run in the shadows here, you're somewhere where people still hold very bitter memories of things that happened in 1929, the 1800s, or even further back. (The fireworks, literal and rhetorical, between the Christian churches of the West and the East must be a sight to behold...)
  • Play up the desperate idealism that, until the 1970s, Israel represented in the West. It was very idealistic, very communal...Admired by a lot of people in the West, if not their governments. But it was also a very desperate situation.
  • This is a place where the personalities that have made a mark in the past 100 years (from Ben Gurion to Dayan to Rabin in Israel, with Nasser, Arafat, Sadat, King Hussein, and others on the Arab side(s)) have really been larger-than-life in many respects. SR doesn't really do "heroic" or larger-than-life often, but this region and this conflict seem to beg for it. Not anime-heroic, but...bigger than normal.
  • The frontier. Not much of it, but there can still be a frontier atmosphere. Along the borders (cattle rustling from one side to the order was not unheard of up til the 1970s), in the Negev settlements...The law isn't far away, but it's not developed, either.
  • Oh, yeah. With the IUM, you have all of the borders...warm again. You thought crossing borders in Denver was an adventure (if a hassle)? Here, there's no sector passes. You're not supposed to cross the borders (alive), period. It really is an adventure to cross the borders. A smugglers' paradise (if one way)? Yeah. An infiltration/exfiltration challenge? Yeah.
Rory Blackhand
QUOTE
I don't appreciate being addressed as if I am a 12-year-old.


Then stop acting like one.

QUOTE
I recall posting at the beginning of this thread that I am doing my damnedest to avoid scenarios like you posit. That is how we got crap like the Germany SB.

Please, respect that. If you can't...Go away.


Two comments. One, I like Germany in SR so do others. You don't seem to have a problem with the ultra fantasy of returning the land to the natives in the US and fracturing it apart, but you insist on maintaining Israel in your unimaginative attempt. Two, if you want an elite camp of cronies to work on a certain project don't post in an open forum. When you post here you must accept all comments. I think your ideas have huge flaws, live with it. I have just as much right to post my disagreement as anyone else. Your first interaction with me was to insult me. If you can't take the heat don't play with fire.

QUOTE
Now, re power: Fusion is possible, but there's the question of where you'd put them. Ashkelon is vulnerable to rocket attacks from Gaza. Eilat is vulnerable to attacks from Jordan, Saudi, and Sinai.

So place the plants in the middle of contaminated Tel Aviv, and make them automated or semi-automated (with the employees living in sealed habitats). This way attacks will be unlikely unless the NIJ gets very long-range rockets, not to mention the contamination serving as a defence against ground assault.


Power is already explained as being cheap and easy to beam to remote locations by the Japanese, why would anyone bother with radioactive waste and vulnerable power sites?

QUOTE
No need to start pointless flame wars. You want you Shadowrun world to be summed by the sentance "think big, think fantasy". I prefer moderate destopia. It's nothing but a difference in our taste for game atmosphere.


Maybe you missed the opening shot where he called me a crack addict? I can't "start" anything that is already underway. It's more curious why I get blamed for starting things that others are at fault for.

As far as SR being big and fantastic???? I can't think of any plausible reason the US would ever fall. The reasons given are incredible suspensions of belief. They thought big, really BIG when they speculated on America and every other place detailed so far. Stop trying to impose mediocrity on Israel to be politically correct is what I am saying. Play Cyber Punk or GURPS if you want dull speculations of future earth. Keep SR fantastic and magical if you are going to work on a project that fits with what they have produced so far. This is not a suggestion that I should be flamed or hated for, sorry, I just don't see it.

QUOTE
Israelis like to take care of their families and pals (especiallt friends from military days); the political system reflects this.


All cultures do, all across the world. I can never advance where I work because of it. I don't see it as a special factor in Israeli government, not like in Syria, old Iraq, and well, most of the third world. Advanced society has recognized that to produce a profit requires the best people in position, not just your family. It is something I disagree with as is my right. No harm is done in pointing out what I feel is a flaw.

QUOTE
Contrary to popular belief, Israel rarely uses Uzis IRL, except for a few applications (special forces and security, not military). Assault rifles are massively preferred over pistols/smgs/shotguns (shotguns are rare in Israel) by most military personnel; even officers prefer a carbine over a pistol. And yes, Israelies are used to see alot of soldiers and gun around them. Oh, and we don't use AK-47's; we use their Galil variant, which fires Nato 5.56's instead of Soviet rounds; M16 are far more common IRL than Galils, however. In 2070 they'll use an entirely new gun; maybe an Ares creation, maybe an IMI Inc one, maybe a joint project of these two corps.


Total agreement. I mentioned UZI because of SR gun models not because I think Israelis carry them around, it was for the point I was making. I don't see the Galil listed in SR? Point being, and you know this is true, relaxing at the park, strolling down the street, or out for a drive, seeing a citizen openly carrying a fully automatic weapon is nothing unusual. Where I live that person would be arrested in minutes and attract everyone's undivided attention within view. And imagine giving a hitch hiker a ride carrying a loaded assault rifle? It's all about the cultural differences. This simple fact is something about Israel that is important enough to mention in any description of Israel 2070, assuming they are still at war or under threat enough to warrant it. And along that train of thought, we could just as easily say the third state in Palestine solved the problem and everyone lives happily ever after. My opinion in one word if that were Israel 2070? Boring.

QUOTE
Annd democracies aren't boring if run right by the GM; the more factions there are, the more interesting they get. Alot of dirt to dig, alot of embasrrasing "accidents" to arrange for, alot of sleazy politicians willing to pay alot of cred (or will Israel skill use Shekels in 2070?) to hurt their opponents.


You are confusing democracy for corruption. We have elves and dwarves mixed with high tech. Forget democracy. If every nation was a democracy, wars would very likely become a thing of the past and we would have peace on earth. That is not SR.

QUOTE
Hey, wow. Good job. You did mix in some opinion there, instead of keeping it "pure" flaming and belittlement. Way to go. Thumbs up. Even with a subject you feel strongly about (which you obviously do) and seem to be fairly educated in (or at least able to BS well), you just can't help yourself, and you've gotta toss in "player," "kid," "lack luster suggestions," "boring, zzzz" and crap like that. It's amazing what a piece of work you are.


Why thanks, I am a piece of work. Question. How should I politically correctly in Critias' world impart the idea on a poster when I do feel "parts" of his vision of Israel are boring and lackluster? Give me a better example of how I can communicate that? And, should I check in with you before posting to see if it is ok?

Another question, even more to the point of why I am responding to you. Why is it that when I am called a crack head by a poster you have nothing but silence. But when I call an obvious child a kid you get bent out of shape? And I live in Detroit, I am kind of ghetto, even at my age. Guess it rubs off, but calling someone a "player" is not an insult. Anyone on this board is a game player at the least. Not sure why you take offense to it? Nitpicking comes to mind, though. Look at your own wording, for instance, "crap" like that. Practice what you preach.

QUOTE
Have you ever tried not to be a prick, despite being protected by the anonymity of the internet? On some other board, maybe (since we have yet to see it here)?


Protected by the anonymity of the internet? I would love to discuss this further if you ever roll thru the Detroit area. Or if you plan to attend any east coast conventions? For the record I don't feel I have been rude yet. I can get down right mean in person. I state my business and if people don't like it tough shit. Lol, no, it is you who is protected by the internet and anonymity. I don't have any problems repeating in person anything I have ever posted anywhere on the net. Ask around for me at the next convention if you want proof.

Now go back to your own post and isolate the part that adds to the Israel 2070 project. Here I will do it for you. It lies between these marks (). Did you get it all? Get my point? You are making personal attacks, but not adding to the thread. It is not helpful.

QUOTE
<sigh> Rory is sucking out all my enthusiasm for doing this. I'm wishing a moderator would come by and slap people.


Stop making personal attacks on me then. The first interaction you and I ever had was you calling me a crack smoker. If a moderator were to slap someone it would probably be you. Instead of whining and running away from the issues I raised with your vision of Israel try responding to me like an adult.

QUOTE
Um, before we were so rudely interrupted, where were we?


Putting us to sleep?

QUOTE
I'm sorry but I seem to have read the wrong thread thinking it was the other one about israel erm has Rory taken them all over with the same posts? it shows the power of cut and paste!


Torzzz, why are you making personal attacks? I add something to the discussion every time I post. Don't they have rules against this shit here? Here, I'll try to make dialogue, how do you feel the site of the temple mount should be handled? Would it be colorful to say that the Jews manage to rebuild the Temple? Which is one of the prophesies that predict the end times?

QUOTE
Rory, your style isn't welcomed here. Please stop.


So making a post that does not add to the discussion at all is, right? Stop the flames. If you want a piece of me get in line, but take it outside the Israel project threads.

QUOTE
Thanks torz, that brought a needed smile to my face.  If the moderators could help, it'd be appreciated...


I am all for that. If you review "all" posts you will find that I am subjected to an extraordinary amount of personal attacks, including from you, who started it with the crack comment.

QUOTE
Dystopia can be fun, but only up to a certain point. The typical dystopia overdoes it.


You seem to have missed the whole point of SR. Dystopia is the norm not the acception. Show me something in canon that remotely resembles your rather dull vision of SR. There are other games without dystopia and elves and dwarves, if you don't like SR dystopia you could play them, others, the rest of us enjoy the dystopia you denegrate. This is my opinion, but I am sure it is held by quite a few, if not the majority of SR players.

QUOTE
Corporate power has peaked by 2060. It was at its peak until Bug City, after which the phenomenon of Dunkelzahn and the Renraku Arcology provided room for government to reassert itself. The system is now in flux, with nations regaining some of their former prestige.


I use the Tir as a model on how I see Israel 2070. In my opinion, it would be a walled fortress. Reasoning for this? It is the "promised land". I see no reason to ignore this. Forests in the Tir magically sprang up, why can't the desert bloom in the land claimed by Israel? Doesn't that make sense? And with the hostile nations trying to destroy her it is likely a barrier of some sort would need to be erected. I see Israel as unique as the Tir. It is my vision, no need to call it a crack pot theory or anything else insulting. It is based on reason and speculation.

QUOTE
Cyberware is not universal.


No. Not everywhere. But in a militaristic society, where "everyone" is expected to be a soldier for life, yes it would be. They are outnumbered 600 to 1. Magic must play a role, so does cyber. Israelis are on the cutting edge of technology as I have already shown and they will evolve military cutting edge tech above all else. This makes perfect sense. Unless you go with the "crackpot" idea that Israel is somehow back in the 50s economicly and has no money to pay for cyber??

And on this line of thought, think about the situation in 1950s Israel and you will realize the idea is flawed if you are basing it on reason. Life in 1950s Israel was difficult. Recent arrivals, many of which had barely escaped with their lives from ethnic cleansing across the middle east and fresh from the persecutions of Europe, had no money, no property, and little employment prospect. Due to the huge influx of refugees the economy could not support even the cost of feeding it's people, yes there was food rationing, because the Jewish people made the best of a bad situation. Israel, the nation, was a new and poor country with very limited resources back then. Nothing like today. It absorbed not only hundreds of thousands of Jews fleeing Arab pogroms, but also an equal number of survivors of Hitler's genocide. They lived in dusty tent cities called transit camps and basicly lived hand to mouth. Sorry, I just don't see anything like it in Israel 2070. The future is technology, and that is Israel's main strength.

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Magic is actually quite rare, given the population percentages quoted by canon SR.


Sure, but in magical places like the Tir it is much more common. With the Islamic states pogroms against magic and metas it is likely that Israel's biggest edge is in it's magic. This is quite reasonable if you accept the promised land concept.

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Life for most people in the middle class has changed only in small details from what we know now. Yes, even with magic, metahumans, etc. The basic rhythms of life have not changed. The way people work (as in, psychologically, sociologically) has not changed, regardless of social class.


You just took the gritty edge off SR. This is not in character of the game as I view it in my opinion. There are exceptions. The elves seem to have a better life in the Tir. This is how I picture the promised land. No need to flame me for it. It is an idea based on reason.

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As society globalizes, it will become socially more conservative than what Europeans (in particular) and many North Americans are used to. Why? Because the vast majority of the world is more conservative, and that has not changed with development, defying a lot of theses. But, as I posit above, it will not become significantly more conservative, merely a matter of degrees.


I don't see SR world as globalizing. If any thing they are regressing into something else. Imperial Japan. Feudal Germany. Inca Empire. Etc... In my opinion you are taking away the game's distinct flavor that I and so many others enjoy. If you can see past your hatred you might understand what I am saying.

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Democracy, once you get through a generation with it, is unlikely to fall. (Germany is not a counterargument. Weimar lasted 12 years before Hitler.)


I agree with you on this point, but that is not SR. All the democracies have fallen or been changed significantly.

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This is where a lot of that happened. A lot of the holy sites, besides having a truly awesome background count, probably sit on ley lines (or whatever they're called). I could see an argument that all of Israel is basically criscrossed by em, with Jerusalem being a nexus of em, and the Temple Mount (in a literary nod to its classical status as the center of the world) being the centerpoint of the nexus.


Well, now you are saying something similar to what I already suggested. Rocks sprang up out of the ground in Britain, trees suddenly grew in Ireland. Why not the desert blooms in the promised lands? Is the Temple Mount going to have the Third Jewish Ttemple on it? If it does it will be all out war with Islam with no chance for a cease fire. I see no logical way to share it with a mosque built on it and Jews confined to the Wailing Wall.

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Oh, and before anybody gets any ideas? Keep in mind that there's been a rabbinical prohibition for a long time against Jews stepping onto the Temple Mount; the idea being that nobody knows where the Holy of Holies might have been. Similarly...If we're talking religious fundamentalism, it should also be kept in mind that the orthodox view is that the Third Temple will not be built except when the Messiah comes to Earth. When that happens...We'll really know.


This is a good point that I had forgotten about, not being Jewish myself. But Jews are allowed to visit the Temple Mount the same as tourists are. Actually not, you might get arrested if you try it today. Either way, there is a movement to rebuild the Temple whether the Messiah arrves or not. If the Al Aqsa's Mosque is still standing how do we play this out? My thoughts are that either Jewish terrorists destroy the mosque, which creates the endless conflict, the Israelis hold it's destruction hostage, the site itself somehow recognizes the mosque as something foreign and it is destroyed in the rise of magic, or any other myriad of interesting possibilities. How about the Zurich Orbital/ World Bank being involved in it's preservation as is? It's an important aspect.

Everything you posted below this line was good, with the small exception that I wonder if there will be any wilderness inside Israel? I am hoping you see my point about the promised land aspect. I see it as a walled nation under siege. We both agree on that at least. My suggestion is that "Indian country" is all the land surrounding Israel that has fallen to disrepair after cheap energy was provided by the Japanese. Bands of marauding bandits. Water and gun running. The occasional Jihad springing up out of the desert. Etc.. If I get feed back it would help build a concensus instead of flaming. This was my second attempt to give constructive input and disagreement. Hope you can be man enough to end your insults.

hermit
Rory, you wouldn't happe to be Master Shake in disguise, would you?

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Two comments. One, I like Germany in SR so do others.

Good for you! I don't.

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You don't seem to have a problem with the ultra fantasy of returning the land to the natives in the US and fracturing it apart, but you insist on maintaining Israel in your unimaginative attempt.

Thanks for the insult.

Also, for the record, I do have my troubles with the US fracturing because of Indians. I always wondered why American zealot priests never developed a magical path of their own. If I had my way, America would look a lot like SR's Japan is supposed to look, concentration camps and all. It's a lot more propable than the fracturing.

But the fracturing of the US is a standard of classic 80s Cyberpunk, and I have to accept that. Shadowrun has it's roots in Gibson's work, just like CP2020, and Gibson explicitly stated that he wanted to do away with the US (but maintain the USSR as a "looming threat in the background). Turns out this assumption was flat out wrong. Big deal.

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Two, if you want an elite camp of cronies to work on a certain project don't post in an open forum. When you post here you must accept all comments.

Why, and here I am believing there's something called etiquette and politeness ...

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I think your ideas have huge flaws, live with it. I have just as much right to post my disagreement as anyone else. Your first interaction with me was to insult me. If you can't take the heat don't play with fire.

Great at dealing out, but bad at taking in, eh? That's really a nice combination in people. It's not that I cannot stand the heat, mind you, but it's that I tend to believe that yelling at each other isn't the best way to interact.
Rory Blackhand
Sorry for not adding to the ISrael thread this post:

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Two comments. One, I like Germany in SR so do others.

Good for you! I don't.


Which is no reason to disregard an opposing view to yours is it?

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You don't seem to have a problem with the ultra fantasy of returning the land to the natives in the US and fracturing it apart, but you insist on maintaining Israel in your unimaginative attempt.

Thanks for the insult.


First, unless your name is Penta, who the comment is directed at you should explain why you need two accounts or why you seem to be suffering from some sort of problem? Perhaps you are a multi? Second that is not an insult to tell someone their work is unimaginative. AN insult is this: " Rory, you wouldn't happe to be Master Shake in disguise, would you? "

My wife used to ask me if I thought she was beautiful, I never lie so I told her no, which used to set her off the deep end. Don't ask for my opinion if you don't want a straight answer. I have no illusions that my wife is beautiful just as I do not see imagination in Penta's view of Israel 2070. How can I say it politely? Your nasty Shake comment is what it is though, an insult.

Also, the first interaction you and I had was you "demanding" I that I not post any of Israel's history, no input on the project, no insight on Israel, just you making demands on me, by name. My very reasonable response was that you need to know the past to speculate on the future. Your second interaction with me was again, nothing to do with the thread, you then ordered me to stop posting, and called me a fanatic or some such BS. You need to first back the fuck off me, and second you should add to the Israel project and take your personal jihad against me to another thread, or in private.

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If I had my way, America would look a lot like SR's Japan is supposed to look, concentration camps and all. It's a lot more propable than the fracturing.


It may be more probable that the Christian right take over America and send it back to the purtan days, but it is not on topic here. You made a political statement and my response is, who cares? That is your opinion about an unrelated topic. Why are you dragging your negative view of the US into this thread?

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Why, and here I am believing there's something called etiquette and politeness ...


Calling people zealots when they don't kiss your ass and leave the thread for good reasons is not being polite. Hijacking a thread to attack a poster you do not like is not good etiquette either. You started in on me. If you want a fight you shall have it, but the rest of the readers are the ones who will suffer thru the BS you started. I do not apologize for anything I do not start.

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Great at dealing out, but bad at taking in, eh? That's really a nice combination in people. It's not that I cannot stand the heat, mind you, but it's that I tend to believe that yelling at each other isn't the best way to interact.
Next Oldest | Shadowrun | Next Newest


Key words here, Penta/hermit, "Your first interaction with me was to insult me." That comment was directed at Penta who called me a crack head and started this whole business of personal attacks. I can take anything dished out. I will respond in the same manner I am spoken to.
hermit
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Which is no reason to disregard an opposing view to yours is it?

Nope, but no reason to agree with you either. And my qualms with the Germany SB aren't of much relevance to this thread, are they? Come over to that SoLA thread if you want to discuss this.

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It may be more probable that the Christian right take over America and send it back to the purtan days, but it is not on topic here. You made a political statement and my response is, who cares? That is your opinion about an unrelated topic. Why are you dragging your negative view of the US into this thread?

This was my reply to what would be realistic for the US' future (unlike the fracturing), as I said explicitly. You can read, can you?

And I am not dragging any negative view into the discussion, I was AGREEING with you on the NAN. I pointed out a more logical Dark Future US.

As for the mix-up with Penta's post ... that came over all weird. I didn't take it as a personal insult, but as an insult in general. Happens, I guess, though I thought my English was better.

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Calling people zealots when they don't kiss your ass and leave the thread for good reasons is not being polite. Hijacking a thread to attack a poster you do not like is not good etiquette either. You started in on me. If you want a fight you shall have it, but the rest of the readers are the ones who will suffer thru the BS you started. I do not apologize for anything I do not start.

I was hoping you'd get the hint and stop straying into political discussion, but that hope was in vain.

And you started the flaming, Master Shake, though you apparently think you'Re entitkled to rights others aren't. Pretty self righteous, but to be expected from somene with a mind as narrow as yours.

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My wife used to ask me if I thought she was beautiful, I never lie so I told her no, which used to set her off the deep end.

I guess she doesn't ask any more? Whoa. That's not honest, it's insulting.
Grinder
Maybe you all should come down, take a deep breath and relax. Things seem to become a little ugly here.
torzzzzz
tell me about it, i think Penta's idea is great and hope it can be developed further. Please can everyone just drop their personal grievances stop pushing their opinion as the right one and get on with the ideas!

Rory - no i am not personally attacking your ideas but you do need to appreciate other peoples opinions and fellings! smile.gif

torz x biggrin.gif
Backgammon
Edit: On second thought, I don't want to get into this.
Rory Blackhand
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Nope, but no reason to agree with you either.


I'm not expecting anyone to agree with everything I say. I try to base my suggestions on logic and what makes sense. Keep in mind it is you who are attacking me, I am merely defending aggressively. You can't post an idea in an open forum and expect your ideas to be adored by the people reading them. If you go back and read the beginning you will see that I innocently posted my suggestions and the first response to my effort was calling me a crack abuser. That was insulting and I reacted defensively. Since then you and a few others have entered the thread demanding that I stop posting my ideas or ordering me about like I am some punk. Neither of which is happening. I am just defending myself. I hope you realize that?

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I was hoping you'd get the hint and stop straying into political discussion, but that hope was in vain.


My very reasonable and civilized response to you then is the same as it is now. In order to speculate on a likely future of a nation embroiled in political turmoil, the author doing the speculation must know about the past and current events of that nation. I am not just making political statements. I am presenting facts that are relevant to the suggestions I am making for the project, that you do not wish to accept them and resent the truth of them is more something you need to look inside your own heart for than spend your time badgering and ordering me around as if you are the thought police or something. I'm too intelligent to allow myself to be bullied about. Just don't even try it in the future. If you want to set up a thread on another forum where only posters following your views can post go ahead. But this is SR for discussing SR related issues like Israel 2070, which will very much include a history of Israel.

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And you started the flaming, Master Shake, though you apparently think you'Re entitkled to rights others aren't. Pretty self righteous, but to be expected from somene with a mind as narrow as yours.


No, I think being called a zealot, which was meant as a derogatory insult qualifies as starting the flames between you and I. Unless you can prove I insulted you before you called me that? And calling me Master Shake even though I do not call you dumb ass or shit for brains is uneccessary insulting don't you think? Kind of hypocritical if you want to somehow claim the moral high ground, which you do not possess at all. Calling me narrow minded is also insulting and ignorant as well considering you don't know shit about me. Not to mention quite cowardly sitting in the safety of your mommy and daddy's house.

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I guess she doesn't ask any more? Whoa. That's not honest, it's insulting.


No that is honesty and realism. You should try it sometime. My wife and I have a wonderful solid relationship in no small part from my absolute honesty. And no, she doesn't ask that question much any more. We've been together for 10 years now, she knows better. biggrin.gif

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Please can everyone just drop their personal grievances stop pushing their opinion as the right one and get on with the ideas!


I am fine with limiting the discussion to Israel and how it might end up in 2070. But you can't order people to stop pushing their ideas as the right one can you? Why bother posting your ideas if you are not willing to debate them or back up your reasons for having them? There is nothing wrong with that at all. And if you looked closely you will see that I am in just as much agreement with some of Penta's ideas as I am in opposition to others of his. Maybe a better demand is that we stop focusing on the negative and concentrate on building a consensus. Penta does not own artistic license to develop SR Israel solely in his view and this is an open forum. Please respect my right to post what I feel is relevant without being bossy with me and there will be much less drama.

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Rory - no i am not personally attacking your ideas but you do need to appreciate other peoples opinions and fellings!


I do, or I wouldn't bother posting. But what is a felling? Is that something to do with falling down? biggrin.gif In return I am asking everyone to stop attacking me, my manner of posting, or what I have to say. I discuss the thread's topic anytime I post. I have never once entered a thread with a single initiatory post and ordered or demanded a poster anywhere to cool it, tone it down, leave the thread, etc... That is rude to the thread creator and it is rude to me. If you want to discuss my manner of posting create a Rory Blackhand is a prick thread, PM me, or something else and I will discuss it there with you to your hearts content. In short, everyone please stop attacking me.
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