Yeah, but it doesn't have the same warm fuzzy feeling for me in a PM.

You know despite that bright spot or perhaps because of it this topic will be filled with lots of bile

That being said it's definitely not easy trying to field questions while limited to what your NDA allows you to say when faced with pretty much unrelenting negativity. Honestly a big part of me would love for FanPro to put together a quickstart rulebook once the basic rules are a bit more firmed up than they appear at current.

I'll admit it's a pet peeve of mine. I just don't see that as the stuff of public scrutiny.

Sure, just ignore all the other playtesters who have been doing the same thing.
Just because Patrick's got a blog going doesn't mean he's the only source of unoffical damage control. But you knew that already. It's just an oversight that I wanted to address.

Others that I've seen in here doing damage control (now that my ego is recovering from the day's bruising here at work): Demonseed Elite, Bull, and Synner. Those are the ones I know about; I don't know everyone's screen name, so there might be others that I've missed or am forgetting. I think Adam Jury's actually on the design team as opposed to playtesting. I'm not even the most vocal about it; I think I'm just the one who sounds most (or perhaps least) like a cheerleader when I do it.

Paul's right, though; much as I appreciate the warm fuzzies, it's not just me.

In its own fashion. It's at least relieving tension.

Considering the anonymitty of the Internet what's there to be scared of? A nasty post? Someone flaming you? People being upset about changes to SR4? Bah.

It seemed to be ratcheting up the tension with regards to some people. I recall a rather heated post about legitimate concerns being mocked.

Eh, I've known people to meet up for fights and such over the internet before. In most cases it's fallen through, but occasionally it has happened.

Hell, there's the guy who auctions off ass-beatings on ebay. You bid on how much you want to pay him to kick your ass, and agree to buy him a round trip plane ticket from where he is to where you are, and he'll cheerfully lay the smack down upon you.

I wasn't going to bring this tirade out, but you mentioned a very sore subject directly, and I'll answer it the same way. I intend nothing personal to you, Grinder; this is just a gripe I've had for some time (and many of the people who've known me and worked with me for a while know what's coming; you can go get popcorn now, you won't miss anything).

Of course, there's the fact that I don't hide behind the anonymity of the internet. My screen name is my real name; my profile really says where I am; my picture is really on my blog.

This can be a very ego-bruising kind of place, especially when you're like me and you put a lot of yourself into your work. It's one thing to receive legitimate criticism based on a work, but it's another thing entirely to get the kind of abuse the actual writers have been taking based on something that isn't out there for actual consideration yet.

I don't hide behind the internet, but I know a lot of people here that do. Most have legitimate reasons for using a screen name, even if that legitimate reason is "It's fun." A few, though, hide behind it, hold up the First Amendment, and say that they have a right to be offensive and obnoxious, and any request for them to be civil is greeted as censorship. They're cowards, unwilling to actually stand up behind what they've got to say, instead propping it up with their anonymity, since no one can possibly find them and read them the riot act.

We've bred civility out of the current crop of humanity, it seems. It's really kind of sad, too, but it's the way things are. What's there to be scared of? You might be surprised, Grinder. I've never received death threats about my writing...but I know a couple of folks who have. I've been insulted more times than I care to count; I can take personal insults, but I don't appreciate my mother being brought into it, as some have done. I've been told that I was the worst thing to ever happen to Shadowrun back when I wrote for Target: Matrix. Nothing major, to be sure, but there's a lot to be said for a kind word now and again.

I have only slightly more idea what the end result is gonna be than you do, but that extra bit of focus does make me hopeful.

Well, the way I see it, on the internet you can give it out as good as you got. I think, based on my observations on the internet in general, that enforced civility and moderation dosen't really accomplish much other than to effectively squelch some lines of discussion, thought, or questioning. One person's inappropriate flaming might be another person's pretty serious point of view.

That's why I hang out at bullshido.net. There is very light moderation. If someone wants a piece of you, they will hardly ever be moderated, but you can respond to them as energetically as you please.

Strategically increasing and redirecting damage is still controlling it

That was about the lame snipe of an April Fool's joke, not Bull's comments.

~J

EXCEPT...

When you're posting on a public forum representing a larger body of folks in an official or unofficial capacity because you are often not representing only yourself you CAN'T respond as enthusiastically as you might otherwise.

Most folks I know don't feel comfortable being jerks when they are representing a larger interest. Some do - and some do it really quite well and are endearing and have a certain amount of credibility for being 'straightforward'.

-----

I appreciate Patrick's efforts and know how hard it is to feed us little snippets while being muzzled, and how much he probably wants to give more, but can't because of the state of the development, because of what marketing FanPro might have planned (exclusives and whatnot for trade magazines and what not), because of his NDA.

It takes a pretty thick skin to see negative feedback day in and day out - especially when you're really working hard and are really excited about what you're doing - or when you actually agree with the negative feedback but aren't in a position to make or unmake changes.

A kind word does go a long way. Making the 4th ed of a game with a 20 year history has got to be rough... thanks for the updates, Patrick. And pass along thanks to the others too. Keep it up. And know that most of us bitch because we love the game so much. Though some of us are just jerks.

It's the ego stroking that really bends me the wrong way Patrick. I mean, I don't know you from the next guy on DS aside from what you post. As long as I've played SR, I'm sure I've run acrossed your handiwork more times than I know.

The fact is, FanPro is providing us a product and it is in their best interest to deliver something that we want to buy. That means you and anyone else envloved with shaping the future of SR4 will be doing your best to produce something we will want. It's obvious to me that many are passionate about SR, either from being envolved directly (such as yourself) or being a player.

You've all got your jobs to do, whatever they may be, but I don't much care for the notion of singling out any one person and lauding them with kudos and exhaulting their good deeds. As humble as the recipient may be about it, I personally feel those types of comments are best handled either privately or with the specific intention of "Getting to know the people who made SR4 possible" type area/event/medium.

For whatever it's worth Patrick, I bitch and moan everytime some tool decides to post "who's your favorite Dumpshocker" so this is nothing personal.

/ramble off.

And I appreciate the kudos, but I see Grinder's point, and I've also tried to point out that I'm not the only one doing this.

Which reminds me, I need to get off my dead ass and do some serious updating of things across the board, especially at Azziewatch.

In all seriousness, as much as I hated that puerile shit, this is really not the same thing.

I too am somewhat concerned about what appears to be a very short release deadline given that to a certain degree some mechanics are still in flux. Personally I'd have to say that while the Gencon window is optimal for sales that I think that given the choice of a delayed product that is well edited and doesn't require much errata (a big rarity in gaming these days) vs an on-time product that has editting problems and needs lots of errata I'd prefer the release window to be delayed.

Yes I am really impatient to see the new edition but having waited for like a decade for CP203x I think I could stomach a delay for SR4.

I'm probably bigger than you, and can move you quite easily. I'd rather not widow Tiffany before I even marry her. It wouldn't be good PR, don't ya know?

What he said. I speak in no official capacity whatsoever, and a lot of what I say is just as much conjecture as what anybody else is saying.

I was dressed down by a friend, and looking back on it, rightfully so, for opening my yap about some things that turned out not to be particularly accurate. No, I'm not going to point them out. But I don't want someone to come back later and say, "Thus-and-so isn't how that no-good Texas-centric Azzie-hating so-and-so Goodman said it was going to be" because I said one thing and the game came out another way.

I'm not a company spokesman, I'm just a guy who wants to see this thing he's working on given a fair shake.

Better?

{English Nazi}There's no such word. What you're looking for here is "Regardless."{/English Nazi}

Sorry; that one grates at me.

I'm flattered, I suppose. I try to put my best face forward whether I'm talking about SR4 or anything else here. I'd rather not influence your view of the company, since I'm just a freelancer, but I suppose that it's inevitable when I start talking about certain things I'm involved in.

It's a valid construction of a word. Granted it means the exact opposite of what it was meant to say, but it's still not an incorrect prepending of a prefix.

~J