Full Version: Making the millions
My character plans to own an adult entertainment establishment in the near future and it got me thinking. Is there a game mechanic for how profitable a business is and how much (if any) money it rakes in? If not, and I suspect this is the case, how would you rule it?
Forget adult entertainment. The Trauma patch business is where it's at.
Mmmmm...Street Index...
Mmmmm...Street Index...
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| Forget adult entertainment. The Trauma patch business is where it's at. Mmmmm...Street Index... |
Don't you mean the survival knife buying business?
Here's my initial idea: have your character invest so much every month into the business (salaries, marketing, advertising, improvement of the site, commissioning simsense stars for tours, etc). Without any effort, you'll make 90% of what you put into it (and thus, the business will slowly die over time). Every month, make a Small Business* (Adult spec.) test against a TN of 4, with Etiquette as a Complimentary. For every success, you get an additional 5%. Default to Intelligence until you can get some ranks. Thus a savvy businessman (6 ranks of Small Business + 4 Etiquette) will average 4 successes every month, for 500 nuyen profit on a 5000 nuyen expenditure. An average businessman (Small Business 3, Etiquette 3) will barely break even.
Once you quit putting money into it, you've either "sold it" (and will get money for your capital), or put everything in hock until you can fire it up again. If it doesn't seem like much, remember that if you did this full time (and got a good Small Business skill), and re-invested all your profit, it would grow exponentially. You'd be making some good money in a few years (just like very successful real businesses).
*No idea if this is a real Knowledge Skill. Seems like a reasonable one though.
Once you quit putting money into it, you've either "sold it" (and will get money for your capital), or put everything in hock until you can fire it up again. If it doesn't seem like much, remember that if you did this full time (and got a good Small Business skill), and re-invested all your profit, it would grow exponentially. You'd be making some good money in a few years (just like very successful real businesses).
*No idea if this is a real Knowledge Skill. Seems like a reasonable one though.
Quick question on a simular topic, how do people think these two situations should be handled (I will describe them and report how our groups handles it below)
1) The PC Rigger wants to be able to make some money doing shadow tech work, or working on other people's cars...
we have found rules for this (kinda), here are the apporpiate quotes from Rigger three, both on page page 124,
the mechanic contact describes it has shadowtechs charge 100
for an hours work. Also, in the do-it-yourself section it describes that a PC-Rigger can do his own shop work for 6 hours a day without causing problems with other aspects of his life.
Thus, for our group, the rigger (that's me!!) decides how many days I spend on doing shadow mechanic work, and roll 1D6 for each day; then add this up, and multiply by 100 for how much money is made.
(and sixes do not explode)
Thus say for 10 days, say I roll
6,5,5,5,4,3,3,2,2, 1 totaling: 36 x 100 = 3600 for those ten days.
Using 3.5 per day (the expected value of a D6 ) and 30 days in a month, this averages out to be 105, x 100 = 10500, dollars in labor work (or in our case profit), We do not inculde part costs because we assume those are paid for by the consumer...
This seems like a bit much to me, but hey I want to know what you guys think about this so... like I said this is what our group uses.
We also cap how much you can make in a month by adding up your B/R skills (in this case all of the vechicle ones) and that times a thousand is the cap. So say I have Car B/4 4, and hovercraft B/4 2, then my total would be 6 x 1000 = 6000 cap per month, so I could never make more then 6000 per month (with these skills) also It goes without saying the Rigger would need 1) space to work in, and 2) tools before he does this, I would say at least a Middle Space, and at least a shop if not a facility to do his work in. Also, he would probably have to set up some way to routinely get vechile parts for his shop.
I have a lifestyle with high space (as per SSG) which for me is a 3 car garage under an appartment, with a vechile shop.
2) say the PC decker wants to do the same with his computer B/R skills... we don't have a decker so we haven't discussed this in our group, ( plan on becomming a real Textpert, and branching out) so I have no idea how this would work, probably along the same lines as the rigger stuff.
3) also has an after thought, (kinda two questions really) what about a PC using say his instruction skill to teach others...
4) and fourth, (in the main book it says somewhere under learning new spells that a instructor cost 1000 per force of the spell) how much would it be for a PC to get an instructor for a more mundane task, such as martial arts or pistols ? still a 1000 per rating (the new skill rating that is).
And as a side note, to the decker question, it says in the programming section (don't feel like looking it up) that a PC decker can program for 8 hours without interferring with his other obligations. So why the difference between deckers and riggers/gunsmiths... (i don't know where the rule it but I have been told that PCs making their own guns can only work 6 hours in a day.)
so yea, thoughts?
amadeus
[edit] forgive my bad spelling [/edit]
1) The PC Rigger wants to be able to make some money doing shadow tech work, or working on other people's cars...
we have found rules for this (kinda), here are the apporpiate quotes from Rigger three, both on page page 124,
the mechanic contact describes it has shadowtechs charge 100
for an hours work. Also, in the do-it-yourself section it describes that a PC-Rigger can do his own shop work for 6 hours a day without causing problems with other aspects of his life. Thus, for our group, the rigger (that's me!!) decides how many days I spend on doing shadow mechanic work, and roll 1D6 for each day; then add this up, and multiply by 100
for how much money is made. (and sixes do not explode)
Thus say for 10 days, say I roll
6,5,5,5,4,3,3,2,2, 1 totaling: 36 x 100 = 3600
for those ten days. Using 3.5 per day (the expected value of a D6 ) and 30 days in a month, this averages out to be 105, x 100 = 10500, dollars in labor work (or in our case profit), We do not inculde part costs because we assume those are paid for by the consumer...
This seems like a bit much to me, but hey I want to know what you guys think about this so... like I said this is what our group uses.
We also cap how much you can make in a month by adding up your B/R skills (in this case all of the vechicle ones) and that times a thousand is the cap. So say I have Car B/4 4, and hovercraft B/4 2, then my total would be 6 x 1000 = 6000
cap per month, so I could never make more then 6000 per month (with these skills) also It goes without saying the Rigger would need 1) space to work in, and 2) tools before he does this, I would say at least a Middle Space, and at least a shop if not a facility to do his work in. Also, he would probably have to set up some way to routinely get vechile parts for his shop. I have a lifestyle with high space (as per SSG) which for me is a 3 car garage under an appartment, with a vechile shop.
2) say the PC decker wants to do the same with his computer B/R skills... we don't have a decker so we haven't discussed this in our group, ( plan on becomming a real Textpert, and branching out) so I have no idea how this would work, probably along the same lines as the rigger stuff.
3) also has an after thought, (kinda two questions really) what about a PC using say his instruction skill to teach others...
4) and fourth, (in the main book it says somewhere under learning new spells that a instructor cost 1000
per force of the spell) how much would it be for a PC to get an instructor for a more mundane task, such as martial arts or pistols ? still a 1000 per rating (the new skill rating that is). And as a side note, to the decker question, it says in the programming section (don't feel like looking it up) that a PC decker can program for 8 hours without interferring with his other obligations. So why the difference between deckers and riggers/gunsmiths... (i don't know where the rule it but I have been told that PCs making their own guns can only work 6 hours in a day.)
so yea, thoughts?
amadeus
[edit] forgive my bad spelling [/edit]
Typical Instruction skill fees are found on p50 of the Shadowrun Companion:
Instruction Skill 1 = 40 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 2 = 50 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 3 = 75 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 4 = 100 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 5 = 200 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 6 = 400 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 7+ = 400 (+ 100 per skill point above 6) nuyen/day
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 2 or 3: -25 nuyen/day
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 4 or 5: No change
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 6 or 7: +25 nuyen/day
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 8+: +50 nuyen/day
This assumes 4 hours per day of instruction.
I don't think it's unreasonable for a rigger who is doing repair work during downtime to earn a little cred for it, especially since monthly upkeep for vehicles can get pretty expensive (1% of the drone/vehicle cost of ALL vehicles isn't trivial). However, a rigger would be hard-pressed to do that and do other meaningful things with his/her downtime.
Instruction Skill 1 = 40 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 2 = 50 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 3 = 75 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 4 = 100 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 5 = 200 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 6 = 400 nuyen/day
Instruction Skill 7+ = 400 (+ 100 per skill point above 6) nuyen/day
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 2 or 3: -25 nuyen/day
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 4 or 5: No change
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 6 or 7: +25 nuyen/day
Trainee is Learning Skill Rating of 8+: +50 nuyen/day
This assumes 4 hours per day of instruction.
I don't think it's unreasonable for a rigger who is doing repair work during downtime to earn a little cred for it, especially since monthly upkeep for vehicles can get pretty expensive (1% of the drone/vehicle cost of ALL vehicles isn't trivial). However, a rigger would be hard-pressed to do that and do other meaningful things with his/her downtime.
Make deckers work for it. If they get some good programming skills and equipment, and spend their down time writing programs to sell, they might as well retire if they can get their computers (or prog spec) to say...8 (which is NOT hard w/ specialization) they might as well retire. Checked the street index for programs lately, especially say around 9? Sell that stuff, can cover your time for a run, especially if you buy a permanent life style. That's why writing programs takes so damn long. BUT, you divide it by your successes.
And the lovely thing about programs is you can sell them, not once, not twice, but as many times as you want ...
The problem with selling programs is that they are reproducible, write once sell 50 times over the next 3 months. To easy and in no way balanced.
the reason programmers can work for 2 extra hours a day is that after woods they need a light shower before they can go and meet a fancy contact at a restaurant. If you where working on a vehicle it will take that extra time to get properly clean. It doesn’t work for people that lie low lifestyles and have street contacts but its the best I can come up with.
Edward
the reason programmers can work for 2 extra hours a day is that after woods they need a light shower before they can go and meet a fancy contact at a restaurant. If you where working on a vehicle it will take that extra time to get properly clean. It doesn’t work for people that lie low lifestyles and have street contacts but its the best I can come up with.
Edward
| QUOTE (Westiex @ Apr 13 2005, 08:24 AM) |
| And the lovely thing about programs is you can sell them, not once, not twice, but as many times as you want ... |
Not necessarily. Realistically, the more people who get a hold of your latest IC-breaker, the more potential ways for a corporation to find it, reverse engineer it (and with the cracking rules in SOTA:2063, this isn't hard), and then tailor their IC or other systems specifically against it. If you sell your object code all over the place, the program will soon become a liability. This is something that is ultimately up to the GM, but a savvy GM will take this into account.
Not to mention, you'd be hard pressed to sell a program anyway without a Connected edge. Think about your potential market... a small handful of deckers, most of whom also write their own programs.
In general, the prices listed are for programs made by small consortiums (Hacker House) or corporations. It's contracted work, and your average decker would have to snag some pretty hefty connections in order to get that kind of work.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
Not necessarily. Realistically, the more people who get a hold of your latest IC-breaker, the more potential ways for a corporation to find it, reverse engineer it (and with the cracking rules in SOTA:2063, this isn't hard), and then tailor their IC or other systems specifically against it. If you sell your object code all over the place, the program will soon become a liability. I will agree though, that normally these are written by small consortiums, and they probably guard their business well. |
I'd take that as more reasoning TO sell multiple copies! Dump them quick as I can (supposing I'm not using it myself).
Example, I make a program. It costs $100 (silly, I know, but nice math). Lets also assume that when 100 people have the program, IC is developed for it, and lets not forget that people like to share their proggies.
I sell it to 2 people a month. Each month, they each pass that code on to two of their friends. I'm not making any more money, but within 6 months, more than people have my code, and I only made $1,200 off it.
On the other hand, if I sell it to 10 people every month. Supposing they still share it with two people, it takes 3 months to hit the 100 person mark. In that time, I've made $3,000 off it.
On the other hand, supposing I don't share the source, eventually I'm still going to reach that threshold, PLUS I have to deal with the fact that after a while, my code will become obsolete just due to age.
The only advantage of trying to limit my sales is that I can use my tool for longer (and, perhaps, that helps me get more 'brand loyalty').
hmmmm, lots to think about on the decker side, and I can see your point about the two extra hours, and thx hahnsoo for the reference to SR Comp, I haven't read that book yet... I guess I need to.
But, to jump back to my orginal question, what do you guys think about the rigger mechanic rules we have been using, (this is more like providing a service, instead of selling a manufactured thing...)
amadeus
But, to jump back to my orginal question, what do you guys think about the rigger mechanic rules we have been using, (this is more like providing a service, instead of selling a manufactured thing...)
amadeus
To jump back to MY original question, does anybody else have ideas that won't automatically be losing money? I wrote up the custom lifestyle stats for the building using SSG and I can afford to pay the 100 month's rent required to own the building. I was just wondering about balancing employees' salaries, etc. Maybe some variation of tha day job flaw?
Easy make the dancer's work for tips, put a cover charge on the door.
There is no easy way out of it to tell the truth.
There is no easy way out of it to tell the truth.
Well, the Day Job flaw works out to 100 per hour for 10 hours/week, and 125 an hour for 20/40 hours a week. This might need to vary depending on various positions. Waiters, IMHO would make less, and dancers more.
You'll probably need to get some security, bartenders, wait staff, dancers, a light/sound/tech guy, and maybe a manager for some of the everyday stuff, to take a lot of the burden off you, the owner. If you want to serve food, add in cooks/chefs and assistants. It all depends on how big you want the place to be and what "services" you wish to provide.
Also, business require licenses, you might want to go with a variation on the rules for licensing a clinic or hospital. A thing to remember regarding other costs is that if you set up shop in organized crime/gang territory, protection money might be required. Also, bribes to the police may be needed if you want to run prostitution/drugs/BTL rooms/Bunraku parlors/etc.
All, in all, I think it's a great idea, and can easily provide plot hooks and runs.
per hour for 10 hours/week, and 125 an hour for 20/40 hours a week. This might need to vary depending on various positions. Waiters, IMHO would make less, and dancers more. You'll probably need to get some security, bartenders, wait staff, dancers, a light/sound/tech guy, and maybe a manager for some of the everyday stuff, to take a lot of the burden off you, the owner. If you want to serve food, add in cooks/chefs and assistants. It all depends on how big you want the place to be and what "services" you wish to provide.
Also, business require licenses, you might want to go with a variation on the rules for licensing a clinic or hospital. A thing to remember regarding other costs is that if you set up shop in organized crime/gang territory, protection money might be required. Also, bribes to the police may be needed if you want to run prostitution/drugs/BTL rooms/Bunraku parlors/etc.
All, in all, I think it's a great idea, and can easily provide plot hooks and runs.
No prostitution, no drugs, no Mafia. My place is clean, classy, and legitimate. No kitchen, so no cooks or anything, just a few bouncers, a few waitresses, and some talented entertainment providers. The wait staff and talent I can probably get reasonably cheap because they mostly work for tips. It's the bouncers that will cost me, assuming I want some that are any good. Which I do. I'm sure I can find DJs for cheap, who wouldn't want to get their name out there while staring at booties in g-strings?
Where are the licensing rules?
Where are the licensing rules?
| QUOTE (Smiley @ Apr 13 2005, 02:13 PM) |
| Where are the licensing rules? |
p. 138, M&M. 15% of the total cost of the place.
Note that figure is for medical clinics, it'll probably need to be adjusted.
Permits for gear are, IIRC, 10% of the cost of the gear, so that provides a range of 5% to work in.
Kinda steep. The liquor license at my place of employment was only a couple thou.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave @ Apr 13 2005, 01:49 AM) |
| Forget adult entertainment. The Trauma patch business is where it's at. |
The good thing about the trauma patch business is that you can proactively increase your customer base by shooting people.
Have one of your salespeople follow you on a run and offer services afterward.
hehe, i think i might use that tactic and invest in docwagon 
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| Kinda steep. The liquor license at my place of employment was only a couple thou. |
Yes, but considering that this license will cover not only alcohol, but also dancing and adult entertainment, as well as never having to be renewed, it's a pretty good deal.
Also, for teh rigger mechanic, Connected (Vehicle parts, purchase) is almost a must. You're markup would be huge as you get to sell the parts at street index.
The problem with running a business is it is complicated and requires a wide variety of skills. Your strip club will require
Knowledge music
Knowledge strip clubs
Knowledge finances (small business)
Knowledge beverages
Knowledge food
Negotiation
Etiquette
Intimidation
Interrogation
Some of these you can default on but not all.
Also running such a business is a full time job (I have known people that run clubs 12 hours days 7 days a week is common) when will you run the shadows. You could hire a manager but he doesn’t have the same drive to see the place succeed you do and you have to pay him.
If you really want to do it take the day job flaw at a high value
Personally I would say list it as a retirement goal.
Edward
Knowledge music
Knowledge strip clubs
Knowledge finances (small business)
Knowledge beverages
Knowledge food
Negotiation
Etiquette
Intimidation
Interrogation
Some of these you can default on but not all.
Also running such a business is a full time job (I have known people that run clubs 12 hours days 7 days a week is common) when will you run the shadows. You could hire a manager but he doesn’t have the same drive to see the place succeed you do and you have to pay him.
If you really want to do it take the day job flaw at a high value
Personally I would say list it as a retirement goal.
Edward
| QUOTE |
| Where are the licensing rules? |
I think a better question is where is your SIN? I might be wrong, but SR assumes we have no SINs. Without one it will be difficult to stay in business if not impossible with a good GM.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Also, for teh rigger mechanic, Connected (Vehicle parts, purchase) is almost a must. You're markup would be huge as you get to sell the parts at street index. |
Then you assume you are running a shadowbusiness. How will your connection feel when parts, supplied via him/her shows up on the black market and is traced back to him?
Does the Connected edge allow unlimited amounts of gear? - GM call. Assuming its a friend who uses creative accounting to slip the rigger the needed items without a papertrail. (Assuming the rigger is SINless)
If the rigger HAS a SIN, but is selling at SI prices, that means he's selling to illegal buyers, meaning the cops will come down on his shack when they track the gear he sells.
To keep it simple, I'd stick with the "hourly rate" method and keep the parts well out of the equation.
Chef. "Just a cook..."
Are you a shadowrunner or a shopkeeper?
Snoof
Brief
Snoof
Brief
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand @ Apr 14 2005, 06:28 PM) |
| I think a better question is where is your SIN? I might be wrong, but SR assumes we have no SINs. Without one it will be difficult to stay in business if not impossible with a good GM. |
Actually, it's up to the player ...
| QUOTE (SR3 (BBB) page 238) |
| Players may decide when creating their character background whether or not they have a SIN. |
Even if they don't have a real SIN, a good fake should pass inspection.
Fake SINs really aren't that hard to come by. Isn't the availability equal to the rating you're looking for? Easy.
@Smiley,
Sorry, didn't mean to distract from your post man, I was just asking a question that seemed to apply to more characters, didn't mean any offense.
...
To put my two cents in about the strip club, I think it would be a really cool idea for a character to own a strip club, you could pay for (or have your group mage and techie do it for free) some privacy rooms to be built, for shadowrunners and johnson's to meet, and discuss "business" in a secure location. Set up a good security system and your place could be made to be pretty safe. But, how to run that in game wise? I have no clue what you would do, I have a feeling it should be based off of several things,
1) your skills, ie Negotiation, Etiquette, and the various knowledge skills, which on all of these your could default, (not sure how that would work exactly, I just think that a character with a high int would be able to run a business better then a character with a low int.)
not sure how you would use Intimidation, or Interrogation would be usefull, (why would you want to intimidate your customers? )
2) your base attributes, how charismatic are you? stuff like that...
3) the location of your joint, the barrens... actually you might get a lot of business there, but in a AAA area, probably not so much, unless your place is going to be really high class.
4) how much money and preparation you put into it, and how much time your character puts into the business.
5) another random element, some months are better then others...
How to put this all together? not sure, maybe once you have the place set-up and get some of the word out, (for the first couple of months, the place will probably only be a money drain), you can design a new skill, call Strip Business (or something like that), have it be based off charisma, then maybe take Negotiation, Etiquette, the knowledge skills you have, charisma, and intelligence, and either average them and roll that and times it by some amount (break it down to one roll, too many rolls and you will start to bog down game time) or take the Negotiation, etiquette, knowledge skills, and your two stats and add half of each to your Strip business skill, and then roll that.
but, maybe that is too wide of a range, hmm, I am not quite sure how you would run this, but like I said, it seems to me that whatever you do it should inculde those five elements.
hope this helps...
amadeus
Sorry, didn't mean to distract from your post man, I was just asking a question that seemed to apply to more characters, didn't mean any offense.
...
To put my two cents in about the strip club, I think it would be a really cool idea for a character to own a strip club, you could pay for (or have your group mage and techie do it for free) some privacy rooms to be built, for shadowrunners and johnson's to meet, and discuss "business" in a secure location. Set up a good security system and your place could be made to be pretty safe. But, how to run that in game wise? I have no clue what you would do, I have a feeling it should be based off of several things,
1) your skills, ie Negotiation, Etiquette, and the various knowledge skills, which on all of these your could default, (not sure how that would work exactly, I just think that a character with a high int would be able to run a business better then a character with a low int.)
not sure how you would use Intimidation, or Interrogation would be usefull, (why would you want to intimidate your customers? )
2) your base attributes, how charismatic are you? stuff like that...
3) the location of your joint, the barrens... actually you might get a lot of business there, but in a AAA area, probably not so much, unless your place is going to be really high class.
4) how much money and preparation you put into it, and how much time your character puts into the business.
5) another random element, some months are better then others...
How to put this all together? not sure, maybe once you have the place set-up and get some of the word out, (for the first couple of months, the place will probably only be a money drain), you can design a new skill, call Strip Business (or something like that), have it be based off charisma, then maybe take Negotiation, Etiquette, the knowledge skills you have, charisma, and intelligence, and either average them and roll that and times it by some amount (break it down to one roll, too many rolls and you will start to bog down game time) or take the Negotiation, etiquette, knowledge skills, and your two stats and add half of each to your Strip business skill, and then roll that.
but, maybe that is too wide of a range, hmm, I am not quite sure how you would run this, but like I said, it seems to me that whatever you do it should inculde those five elements.
hope this helps...
amadeus
Intimidation is not often useful and it is a skill you can hire for the most part. There is a short period of time between politely asking a customer to leave and physically removing him where you tell him that if he doesn’t go quietly you will shove him out the door. Also occasionally you want to put the wind up your employees when they are not working as hard as they should. you won’t be threatening them with violence, a rased eyebrow at a slacking employ can work wonders, they know you set the roster and can reduce there hours or put them on les favourable hours but this is still a use of the intimidate skill.
Interrogation is the primary skill you use interviewing a potential employ. You can probably cope with defaulting.
Edward
edit becaus i had a sentince in teh wrong place
Interrogation is the primary skill you use interviewing a potential employ. You can probably cope with defaulting.
Edward
edit becaus i had a sentince in teh wrong place
true, true, didn't think about that, good point
amadeus
amadeus
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.