Do you think Shadowrun for the Xbox 2 (which possibly will be a MMORPG) could/should use the new SR 4 P&P rules?

I've never heard of a SR MMORPG.

And, if there is one, I think that hoping for any kind of conformity to the RPG rules, any edition, is a wild, illogical hope.

A MMORPG based on the Xbox... hmm... Xbox would have to have sold a drekload more than I thought tp even begin to make that viable. Also, I'm not convinced the typical console player demographic is well suited to the long-term investment of time and patience that a MMORPG demands as a necessary part of its process - the "grind".

Since you already have to pay a monthly fee for X-Box Live to play any game online with the X-Box, and all MMORPG's have monthly fees, I just don't see any MMORPG being on the X-Box.

The counter-argument to that is that you have to pay a monthly fee to access the internet. However, as I understand it the Xbox LIve fee is in addition to already requiring an existing internet connection, yes?

Yes, and it's very possible that SR could be a MMORPG with the P&P rules. I think some people are forgetting the huge success of Neverwinter Nights using 3e D20 rules not to mention KOTOR and KOTOR II. So there is a precendent and it is very profitable.

Those weren't MMORPG though. A MMORPG introduces another order of magnitude or two of complexity to a computer game.

Aside from lip-service and general ideas, I have serious doubts any attempt to make an MMOG based on SR would bare an real resenblence to the SR RPG. Furthermore, it would have to include a certain arcade element to really appeal to the console crowd. Most folks that play serious MMOG's play on a PC vs. Consoles.

They had plans for a MMO called True Fantasy Online Live which was cancelled due to it's development taking too long and with the Xbox 2 release date so close they said the earnings window had become to slim for an Xbox 1 title of this sort.

True Fantasy Online

As for an Xbox 2 game, there are rumors abound but no solid evidence though. I've heard everything from Bungies doing it, to Day 1 Studios, to the most recent Vendetta Studios.

My thoughts on the game, is now that Shadowrun has adopted a wireless matrix it will be much easier to code and make it much more feasible to do a game in the Shadowrun Universe. IMO a game in which you play single player and when you enter a run you then gain online players (1-5) to complete the run, would be a much better way of handling Shadowrun as an online game being that is so fast paced and MMOs don't handle fast paced at all.

If you think about it though, Genesis SR either had good crossover appeal or a large "closet" following. I'm thinking the same thing could be true for a new SR. NWN had a huge crossover....tons of people played the game without even really knowing what D20 was at first. That can be duplicated.

Duh, that goes without saying. No one is challenging that. We are saying it can be successful with P&P rules and your claiming it won't.

An interesting trend that has come from both Everquest and Worlds of Warcraft is the production of an RPG based on the MMOG. Although I think they both are d20-games, it's interesting to see how much they want to saturate the markets.

I'd anticipate this might become more of a trend with the larger companies like Sony, Microsoft and WotC all developing larger scale products like MMOGs will still wanting to capture the P&P RPG crowds.

Neverwinter Nights was not a MMOG. Anyone could run a server on their machine, and it had a sub-100 maximum simultaneous client count. The World of Warcraft server that I frequent tends to have around 1,000 simultaneous clients connected at any given point. That is a MMOG. NWN was a pretty largescale multiplayer game, but it was not a MMOG. A good NWN server might have 2GB of RAM and a fast SATA or SCSI HDD, without necessity for more than 40GB. You could probably build a NWN-only box that'd support its maximum intended player base for under $1.5K.

The hardware needed to support a MMOG server requires a hell of a lot more monetary consideration. From what I know of World of Warcraft and Everquest 2, the servers those games run on, in addition to being numerous, are all multiprocessor Xeons that feature over 20GB of RAM, and redundant high-speed hard disc RAIDs with total storage capacity in the 5-10 terabyte range. Just one of the dozens of servers for these games likely costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $30K, and even with the power they're devoting toward running the game, the backend database still gets overwhelmed semifrequently.

I don't see people dropping that kind of IT resources into a Shadowrun-based game. D&DOL is going to be the first MMOG that employs an existing RPG system, and I haven't heard much about it lately except that it's got the backing of at least one major and recognized company, Wizards of the Coast, by default, and will likely employ programmers and designers from other companies whose games have achieved critical acclaim. I just don't see Shadowrun getting that sort of treatment. I really don't see anything but D&D getting that sort of treatment, to be fair about it (i.e. it's not that Shadowrun is dying or small-potatoes, it's that D&D/d20 is such a larger potato than any other RPG that it's the only one in the pond big enough to be able to get a MMOG based around its setting and system).

I'd be wetting myself over anything similar to NWN....I'm not shooting the moon.

Based on the track record of SR on consoles, SR for nintendo <shudder> I'm not that confident.

Like many people have said the development costs of a big modern MMORPG are insane several million dollars might begin to cover it and then implementation requires a huge outlay for servers bandwidth administrators etc.

I'm not saying it's imposible for a SR or cyberpunk style MMORPG (there is almost certainly a market if you look at matrix online) it's just that someone in a very big company has to be committed to the design.

One other thing to remember is that the computer game rights to SR might not reside with Wizkid or even some company we are aware of. Chances are those rights are still with however developed the nintendo project or might be back with the original owners of the rights.

Personally I'd be very interested to learn who has the various media rights currently as there is also likely a movie option etc out there.

Oops, I mixed the "fish in pond" and "potatoes" metaphors.

Mmm. Pond full of potatoes.

One. Bury the idea of Shadowrun ever becoming an MMORPG. As WK pointed out, the hardware requirements alone are pretty intimidating, but these aren't even the worst part - add to that the costs for bandwidth, maintenance, technical personnel, and software engineers, and you can begin to imagine what dimensions this whole thing is moving in.

At this point though we haven't even started talking about actual game designers, game programmers, interface artists, environment artists, AI programmers, QA, animators, voice talent, music artists, sound technicians, texture artists, or level designers. And then there's customer support, technical support, game masters...

The point is, these days you should not even consider making an MMORPG unless you're absolutely sure you have a really powerful license, like Warcraft, Everquest, or Dungeons & Dragons.



Two. *If* Shadowrun would be turned into a console game, then I don't think it would be a roleplaying game at all. Remember the game design positions I listed above? Basically all of them would be needed to make "SR, the next-gen console game". Team sizes for next-gen consoles are scary. It used to be enough to have one lead game designer who oversaw mission designers, level designers, game programmers, etc, but for the next generation we will need (at the very least) two lead game designers just to manage the teams.

This increase in team sizes, combined with the increased cost for the proper tools to carry out your project, means that the game must be mass-marketable, which means that you aim for the lowest common denominator (at least if your parent company used to be run by Bill Gates, who didn't become as rich as he is by taking risks).

A common idea (some would say "misconception") that seems to be stuck in the heads of many, many top level executives in the gaming industry is that "Single player RPGs don't sell." (even despite games such as KotOR or other recent successful RPGs).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure that a Shadowrun console game would be tons of fun, but it would be nothing like the pen and paper game. Basically, it would be to the original game what MechAssault is to Mechwarrior. Fun, but shallow.



Bottom line: Definitely not a MMORPG, and most probably not even an RPG.


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Yeah, I know.

Also realize that moreso than just about any other RPG out there is room for just about any fucked up characters in Rifts.

It could be anything from a movie about hard bitten Chi Town veterans (SAMAS guy, dogboys, etc) fighting magic threats to vampires to wormwood stuff (hell there are even more screwed up RCCs out there). There is absolute no telling what form that monstrosity might take even if it ever gets made.

Personally speaking given the baseline of Jerry Bruckheimer movie and Rifts I'd tend to pretty safely say crap would be an improvement on what I'd expect

Can't do a mmog on a console. No keyboard = no chat = no customers. The voice chat probably won't be good enough and quite possibly wouldn't fill the same need anyway (demands too much attention).

Unless and until they decide to generally support keyboards & mice in consoles there will be no (good) mmorg's and no (good) strategy games.

I think this is both stupid and sad, but it appears to be the way it is going to be for now.

You guys must be hardcore movie critics or else you imagine yourself extremely talented. He's put out some very successful movies. I can't envision a higher class pickup for a back-of-the-shelf RPG like RIFTS.

XBox has optional keyboard, no?

Phantasy Star III is console MMOG, of sorts. I've never played it but from what i've read it's more like a multiplayer that forces you to pay monthly. But that aside it is a persistant world with thousands connecting.

Re Bruckheimer and movies

Looking at recent stuff with the exception of Pirates of the Carribean (I'd credit Johnny Depp for that one) and Black Hawk Down ( I'd credit Ridley Scott and some great source material) the past 4 years for instance have been full of a bunch of crap.

2001 Pearl Harbor - Apparently you can make a really bad WWII movie!
2002 Bad Company - <shudder>
2003 Bad Boys II - Uhh this one sucked
2003 Kangaroo Jack - Utter and complete Feces
2004 King Arthur - Not even Clive Owen and Keira Knightley could save this one
2004 National Treasure - not quite Kangaroo Jack level of excrement but really really bad

So while Rifts movie might be one of those rare gems like Pirate of the Carribean where the stars are right I'd tend to assume it would be craptacular and be pleasantly surprised if it's not.

I admit I watch few movies but PotC was one of my all time favorites. But for the one's you liked you credit everything and everyone EXCEPT the person that actually made them, and blame him for all the ones you hated....yeah thats some logic there.

PotC had something weird going on... I mean, think about it. Jerry Bruckheimer. A movie based off of a Disney ride. Pirates. Flavor-of-the-month action hero (Orlando Bloom) and veteran whacko character actor (Johnny Depp). It was a card deck that was stacked AGAINST success, and yet somehow he drew four aces. It totally defies all logic. That's the movie biz for ya.

Ah sweet, sweet irony. That Solstice jumps to the defense of a schlockmiester like Jerry Bruckheimer while in the same time leveling a "SR$" slam at Fanpro for....not just glosing over SR's problems by shuffing around the BBB and pushing it out the door as a new version, but actually rolling up their sleeves and attempting to make a large step in improving playability of the game.

Whether they succeed or not? *shrug* Time will tell. But for crying out loud they are putting serious effort, and thus risk, into this.

I like a lot of Bruckheimer's stuff. I guess I'm just not too high-brow to admit it.