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FrostyNSO
No matter how fast you are, you're not going to dodge a bullet, unless you were somehow in motion already, in which case, it's the shooter's fault if he misses.

Now has anyone ever played SR and removed the ability to dodge bullets altogether?

We tried this once, just for kicks.

Basically, the only things stopping you from getting hit are cover, movement, and various other modifiers. When we gave this a try, people were running while shooting, diving, sticking guns around corners and blind-firing, firing through obstacles, shooting out the lights, throwing loads on combat pool on shots or damage resistance, wasting tons of ammunition, etc...etc...

Anyone who has ever had a problem with characters having the ability to dodge bullets should definately give this a try. It's like a souped-up John Woo movie rotfl.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Now has anyone ever played SR and removed the ability to dodge bullets altogether?

Yep. I stopped calling the test where Combat Pool dice are rolled against a base TN of 4 to reduce the successes of a ranged attack a "Dodge Test". Problem solved.
shadow_scholar
I'm not certain about this, but I think SR2 didn't have Dodge. If it did, we never even knew about it. Our typical games consisted of taking cover, aiming as straight as you could with your skill, and saving your combat pool for resisting damage, which refreshed on your action. But back then if you were a fast character you went before the snails and could take 'em out easily if you had a high Firearms skill. SR2, the glory days of the Sams.
kackling kactuar
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
No matter how fast you are, you're not going to dodge a bullet, unless you were somehow in motion already, in which case, it's the shooter's fault if he misses.

Why does everyone always try to heap all the blame on the shooter?
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (kackling kactuar)
Why does everyone always try to heap all the blame on the shooter?

You're right, it's this damned Russian ammo, and I think my sights are off...
Vuron
I've never been that impressed with the dodge mechanic in regards to firearms unless wired reflexes really speeds up human perceptions and abilities into bullet time type effects.

I always thought having something like there being a simple action called evasive action that gives modifies the shooters TN to hit by +2 or +4 (maybe a scaled amount based on quickness or reaction). That way you can simulate characters doing stuff like a fast crouch walk or moving randomly on diagonals. You'd probably want to apply a penalty to distance move etc but it could make for greater realism in the game.
The Grifter
QUOTE
You're right, it's this damned Russian ammo, and I think my sights are off..


cool.gif
SpasticTeapot
I think Dodge reflects more the character's ability to percieve, and then duck out of the way of, the muzzle of anything pointed at them. Once the trigger is pulled, anyone but a REALLY fast (1000kph) character is going to be hit; however, the PC could notice the lazer dot on their chest and suddenly move to the side, throwing off the shooter's aim.
Arethusa
And of course everyone uses really obvious lasers, especially snipers. If they can, they throw smoke in first to make sure everyone knows they're sniping.

God, that movie was horrible.
Smiley
Which?
Arethusa
Leon/The Professional.

Man, saying that is going to set this thread off.
mfb
i don't know that it was incredibly realistic. but that's a whole different thing from horrible.
Crimson Jack
So why say it?
Arethusa
QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 15 2005, 08:24 PM)
i don't know that it was incredibly realistic. but that's a whole different thing from horrible.

Oh, don't get me wrong. Realism isn't my criterion for good. It's an element, and its use can be good or bad. But that movie was silly shit.
Crimson Jack
It was good fun. Had a great performance by Gary Oldman.
Raygun
Not only was Oldman good in that flick, he had an S&W 610. Sweet.
Pthgar
We never used dodge tests. Only two out of our group of seven even know it exists (the two longest playing.) We have no problems with out it. Speeds up combat, at least.
Crimson Jack
There are times that it is used in our games, but on a whole, it is pretty much ignored by most of my players. In the game that I play in (not GM), I've had to use it repeatedly to escape getting nailed.

Oh, and my two cents on how it works... I subscribe to the school of thought that one is not dodging the bullet, but dodging where he thinks the attacker is aiming prior to the bullet being fired.
Wounded Ronin
Yeah, no dodge test makes for an interesting game. Less candyland, more paranoia and going for the figurative headshot.
Sharaloth
If removing the dodge test wouldn't kill every player in my game several times over, I would consider it (not hard, but I'd consider it). I like the dodge mechanic, it allows for more tactical application of the combat pool and gives a chance to the noncombat types who invariably lose initiative to the bad guys with the big guns, let's them get a chance to dive for cover and call for backup. I don't see it as the character dodging the bullets, but rather making a sudden, unexpected move to get out of the line of fire just before that bad guy starts pulling the trigger. And sometimes you're just caught in a position where you can't suddenly jink to the right at the last second (when you're totally out of combat pool). It's no replacement for cover, but it allows for a momentary stay of execution to hopefully rethink things and get in a better position.
Edward
You cant dodge a bullet its true, but you can dodge a gun. If your standing in front of a gun that looks like it is about to fire you move quickly in another direction while the trigger is still being pulled.

This is why you canít dodge on a surprise attack.

Edward
Kagetenshi
I am irrationally angered at the continued idea that the dodge pool is meant to represent removing oneself from the path of a bullet already in flight.

~J
Arethusa
What's so irrational about that?
Charon
So dodge test are bad but karma pool is good?
Pthgar
"It's better to be lucky than quick." sleepy.gif
Kagetenshi
No, dodge tests are good. People who think, for reasons that I cannot comprehend, that the idea is that the dodge test means your character moves out of the path of an incoming bullet while the bullet is in flight are bad.

Well, they're not bad people, but they nonetheless anger me greatly with this idea.

~J
lorthazar
Dodge test, haven't used that since SR1. Our gorup was more the kind to line up good cover and spraw and area with enough lead to kill half of Pittsburgh. Of course we also wore more armor and had more combat enhancing implants than average as well. It was nothing to see Balrog soak a bursts from SMG's while QuickDraw was lating down heavy and accurate fire from any number of guns.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No, dodge tests are good. People who think, for reasons that I cannot comprehend, that the idea is that the dodge test means your character moves out of the path of an incoming bullet while the bullet is in flight are bad.

Well, they're not bad people, but they nonetheless anger me greatly with this idea.

~J

They probably get the idea from the Matrix, comic books, and bad animeó and, let's be fair: that's probably closer to canon Shadowrun than you(ormostofus)'d like it to be.
Kagetenshi
That's possible. Reviewing SR3, they (thankfully) put no such suggestion in the books; for once in the combat rules I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that it's still an annoying and unfounded assumption.

~J
Raygun
The problem I have is that any kind of Dodge Test should be made prior to any attack roll taking place, with the intention being to make it more difficult for the attacker to hit what is being aimed at, as that is what dodging really is and all, as opposed to an after-the-fact pre-resistance Resistance Test. The end result is pretty much the same, but the means used to get there are actually logical.

The way I do it, the only test made is a Perception Test to determine whether the character is aware of whether the attack is about to occur or not, if it is not determined by the GM to be obvious. If the character being attacked is aware, he can dodge (providing there is somewhere to dodge to), which has the effect of increasing the attacker's Target Number by a pre-determined modifier based on the dodging character's Reaction attribute.

kackling kactuar
The problem with that system is that if the attacker scores a success, there is absolutely no way for the target to evade taking damage, even by burning karma pool. If your NPCs like using full auto, it could result in a bunch of very dead characters very fast.

In my opinion, the game is deadly enough as it is, and there's no need to make it even more so. But as they say, different strokes for different folks - you might like your games with that extra helping of danger, and that's totally cool.
Kagetenshi
If you'll click the link in his sig, you'll find he does indeed like his games with that extra helping smile.gif

~J
Sandoval Smith
I had a GM who once tried out the mechanic of having everyone assign dodge dice against specific NPCs at the start of the combat round, representing 'how much effort they're putting into avoiding fire from X.' It didn't work out that well, since it meant if you wanted extra defense, you'd end up burning quite a bit of combat pool before any actual shooting got done. Not to mention how frustrating it felt assigning a bunch of dice to the guy with the LMG, only to have him not shoot at you at all, and then the guy with the Predator nails you for deadly.

The dodge mechanic means they players are only actually dodging bullets only if you say they are. The actual rolling of dodge dice has to occur at some point, and by putting it after the bullet is 'fired' puts a little more control into the hands of the player.
kackling kactuar
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If you'll click the link in his sig, you'll find he does indeed like his games with that extra helping smile.gif

~J

I followed your suggestion, and immediately realized what a massive understatement that was.

Hot diggity damn, those are some killer rules. Like, literally. eek.gif notworthy.gif
FrostyNSO
One problem comes up when assuming a character is "dodging" a gun pointing in his direction. Let's say it's the first action of the round and that bad guy has the first shot, If you're making that jink to the left, then you are actually acting before your initiative pass, your action being to "jink". That sammy with wired 3 is supposed to be able to aim and fire a gun quicker than you can comprehend that he is shooting at you. The only way I see you dodging is if you were already in motion in the first place.

Also, what about when there are multiple guns pointed in your direction, possibly even from different angles (imagine that). When you have 2 or 3 guys going before you and for the sake of argument their skills are low enough and your combat pool is high enough that you dodge all the shots, you have a character out in the middle of the room doing a floor routine, and that is just outright silly.
kackling kactuar
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
The only way I see you dodging is if you were already in motion in the first place.

Precisely.

Combat pool doesn't really make sense regardless of how you interpret it. I would just accept it for what it is, that being a game mechanic used to prolong the players' lifespan, and leave it at that. smile.gif
Sharaloth
A point: The Wired 3 Street Sam will still be able to shoot you dead, just not on his first, or perhaps second shot. The character being shot at 'jinks' as soon as he either sees that barrel pointing his way (which is fairly easy, even if a Street Sam is moving at blur-level speeds you'd still get the moment between aim and fire to react) or his Shadowrunner sense starts tingling and telling him to get his ass in gear right fraggin' now. The first shot, say a clean miss via combat pool, second shot, not a clean miss, all combat pool used, but armor and body soaked the damage. Then character acts, having narrowly escaped wired Sam death, does whatever. Sam gets another action (and probably one or two more after this one as well), fires at character who has no combat pool left, his reactions too slow to keep up with the hyper-fast street sam. He's moving, and that annoys the sam some, but he's got no surprise moves left.

Even with highly wired sams or Adepts facing each other it's the same. They can, at certain points react just in time to avoid a bullet in the teeth, but can't the whole time, especially since they're moving very fast themselves, and increased reaction speeds do not make you think any faster, just very, very twitchy.

As to the guy in the middle of the floor doing break-dancing moves while getting shot at. It may be silly, but it's survival chummer, and that's worth a lot more than looking retarded every now and then.
hahnsoo
Our group has always taken the notion that "our characters are smarter than we are" and thus are able to "allocate Dodge dice" (i.e. track enemies and dodge and weave appropriately) better than we can micromanage. It's just a mechanic, and a rather abstract one at that.
The Grifter
Why dodge bullets? When you're ready, you won't have to.... cool.gif
The Question
QUOTE (The Grifter)
Why dodge bullets?  When you're ready, you won't have to.... cool.gif

What? Power armour again???
Critias
Morpheus to Neo, ya big knucklehead. You know. From that movie that they never-made-sequels-to-I-don't-care-what-anyone-says!
The Question
QUOTE (Critias)
Morpheus to Neo, ya big knucklehead. You know. From that movie that they never-made-sequels-to-I-don't-care-what-anyone-says!

Just yanking your chain twirl.gif
Smiley
QUOTE (Critias)
Morpheus to Neo, ya big knucklehead. You know. From that movie that they never-made-sequels-to-I-don't-care-what-anyone-says!

I like your power of self-delusion and I wish, in this case, to hop on the bandwagon.
kackling kactuar
Meh, the nonexistent sequels weren't that bad.
The Grifter
What sequels? wink.gif
Zen Shooter01
Guys, combat pool goes extinct in August anyway. Why are we having this discussion?

But I was always of the school that you weren't dodging a bullet in flight, the way you might dodge, say, a baseball. You were dodging the muzzle.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Guys, combat pool goes extinct in August anyway. Why are we having this discussion?

Not for all of us, it doesn't.

~J
Crimson Jack
Dodging bullets.

Chiun in Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins. biggrin.gif
frostPDP
I for one love recalling the use of combat pool in melee and/or firefights, with limitations of course.

When there's a sniper rifle that goes off, you don't even get a surprise test - Chances are the bullet's already hit before the sound even goes off. That's when you use Karma Pool, because that's the only thing that might symbolize a strong gust of wind coming and sending the bullet off course from your head.

But as for combat pool in a game, everyone has to some extent a "bullet time" feature. Granted, it ain't bullety, but its enough that you might twist as you jump and evade the shot partially if not at all.

The use of combat pool in melee is my favorite though. One time a PC jumped up and tried to kick a ganger, then rolled horrible against the ganger's great roll. So the ganger grabbed his arm after dodging the boot and moved to slam him into the ground. Boom, combat pool - Everything slows down as he reaches with his other arm, grabs the ganger, then rolls with the impact, slamming the fool down too.

Then again, sniper rifle going off when you can't see? Dunno if that's dodgeable, not like you're gonna dodge an excellent sniper's TN 4 shot too well...

So that's me.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 16 2005, 11:21 AM)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Apr 16 2005, 01:17 PM)
Guys, combat pool goes extinct in August anyway. Why are we having this discussion?

Not for all of us, it doesn't.

~J

I concur. I like SR, which everything so far indicates the new game coming out in august is not. Much in the sense of the nonexistant matrix sequels.

That being said. The dodging IMHO is not beign in front of the gun when it goes off, it has not a damn thing to do with actually dodging a bullet in flight. Works fine for me.
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