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Kyuhan
I'm talkin' Superman style flight; jetpacks, flight spells, anti gravity belts, whatever. A couple friends of mine think it's overpowered and I wanted to hear some opinions from the dumpshockers to get a more well rounded view. Fire away.
JaronK
Well, it already exists (levitate, eagle shapeshifters, various flying drones, various flying craft) so I fail to see the problem. Sure, riggers themselves don't fly like superman, but they can jump into drones that do. Why would it be so powerful?

JaronK
Kyuhan
I have no idea, other than "it just seems to make them too mobile" which is the only real answer I could get other than "it just does". My personal guess is that these fellas have no imagination when it comes to setting counter measures so flying just adds another thing for them to fuss over.
Kagetenshi
Levitate and either a sustaining focus or just being willing to pay attention for a very long time will, as pointed out, already do this with ease.

~J
Sandoval Smith
Flight spells already exist(get levitate at a decent force, and you're already going pretty fast), and a jetpack can be made out of a flying drone with enough load to carry a metahuman passenger
Kyuhan
Yeah, but I was asking if anyone else thought it was over powered or just didn't belong. It seems to fit just fine with me personally, I was just curious as to the opinions of others. Heh, although by citing ways of flying that pretty much lets me know your opinions. nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
IMO, doesn't really go with the feel of SR in most situations, but that's up to you and your players. But there's no reason you couldn't do it. After all, the biggest problem in most other RPG's w/ flying is that they're hard to hit. In SR, everyone has ranged weapons (aka guns)
JaronK
Seriously. Unless all your runs are outdoors, dealing with threats that don't look up or have guns, I fail to see a significant problem here.

JaronK
Sandoval Smith
Not to mention, in most places where'd you expect to find runners hanging around, Joe random suddenly alighting and soaring through the sky would probably find himself on the wrong side of a 2064 round of skeet shooting.
Crusher Bob
And people haning around in the air like Superman have no cover. In addition you make your self more of a target in both that you are most likely a mage (shoot the flying guy first); also, you are 'unmased' in that guys who couldn't draw a line of sight to you when you were down on the ground now have a clear line of fire (assuming you are flying at any altitude).
Sandoval Smith
We finally have a contender for beating, 'Geek the mage!' as the first rule of SR combat.

'Shoot the flying guy first.' He cannot be up to anything good.
Kaosaur
why else would there be a Low-Altitude Jump parachuting specialization in SR?

You're supposed to do fun shit like that!
Nikoli
How funny would that be? Mage who is over confident in his sorcery decides he won't need a parachute for the up comming run that the entire team (minus the rigger, who should never ever jump out of a perfectly good airplane) is parachuting down onto the target decides to use his levitate spell, and botches the casting on the way down.
hyzmarca
Of course, if you are going to build a jetpack drone you might as well put a mounting point for a minigun along without enough recoil compensation to make it accurate. The jetpack rigger and/or sammie actually has an advantage over the mage.
Nikoli
That's evil, besides, if you have a drone that maneuverable, why waste it moving meat around. just tack ona second gun more ammo and use that by remote?
toturi
Because the enemy might have a smart rigger who knows how to MIJI well?
Nikoli
Even more reason not to strap someone into one of those things
RangerJoe
Nikoli--It's customary to cast the levitate spell inside the airplane. smile.gif

I can see a whole slew of "personal flight" technologies being popular for moving the wealthy around downtown Seattle. Most buildings in my version of downtown have helipads on the roof or sticking off the side (like that nifty hotel in Dubai--only not a tennis court) for choppers and derigible air taxis. I'm sure there is a market for a personal flying drone (with datajack interface) vehicle. Think of it as the Segway of the future. Actually, I might design that vehicle for my game and market it as the "Segway65."
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Nikoli)
That's evil, besides, if you have a drone that maneuverable, why waste it moving meat around. just tack ona second gun more ammo and use that by remote?

Because jetpacks are cool. You don't get the same coolness factor with a drone.
mmu1
QUOTE (Nikoli)
That's evil, besides, if you have a drone that maneuverable, why waste it moving meat around. just tack ona second gun more ammo and use that by remote?

There are other people besides just a dedicated rigger who can benefit from having a drone around, you know.

Our team's rigger put together a "shield drone" - an unarmed tracked drone with 5 points of vehicular armor that's essentially partial cover on wheels. It has a vertical armored shield that has holders for extra ammo and gear on the back, along with a running board and hand-holds, and can be rotated 90 degrees to be horizontal and serve as a stretcher for evacuating any casualties we might take. It also comes with a datajack, so that my character (the street sam) can just plug in and drive it around himself hands-free, freeing the rigger to run the combat and surveilance drones.

Obviously, you can't take it on every run, but it comes in real handy when there's heavy fighting.

I've actually been trying to convince him to build a flying equivalent, but no luck so far... Maybe I should just get a VCR myself... smile.gif
Cray74
QUOTE (Kyuhan)
I'm talkin' Superman style flight; jetpacks, flight spells, anti gravity belts, whatever. A couple friends of mine think it's overpowered and I wanted to hear some opinions from the dumpshockers to get a more well rounded view. Fire away.

It's overpowered until Lonestar arrests the PCs for illegal flight operations at improper altitudes without a flightplan, or some corp cops get nervous and open up with the anti-aircraft weaponry. smile.gif
Nikoli
I think the latter is more likely than the former. If Lonestar won't handle traffic stops and tickets than I doubt they handle air traffic control violations. that and with the advent of the new super traffic control systems such as grid link, and besides, air taxies don't file them and operate at all sorts of crazy altitudes by today's standards. If anything they'd bust him for a bogus transponder code, nothing else. which is bad enough.

And, concerning the casting lev before jumping out, I've seen dumber moves from PC's than that. It's cast when they say it's cast and roll the dice. If they jump and then cast, than it's during freefall as far as I'm concerned. This isn't like putting your shoes on, you have to state when you cast a spell because of the mechanics involved.

And I love the mobile drone-shield. Hell, you should have the player for the rigger write that up, I could see lone-star using it or any tactical team, and submit it for SR4.
And all you need is the cyber remote deck, not the VCR, as you aren't planning on rigging, as far as I know. shoot, you could probably get the armor up higher with some tweaking, and add storage for clips, etc.
BitBasher
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Apr 22 2005, 08:02 AM)
That's evil, besides, if you have a drone that maneuverable, why waste it moving meat around.  just tack ona  second gun more ammo and use that by remote?

Because jetpacks are cool. You don't get the same coolness factor with a drone.

Jetpacks were cool in the 70's and 80's. biggrin.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE
If Lonestar won't handle traffic stops and tickets than I doubt they handle air traffic control violations.
Except that they do have a dept for that in the LS sourcebook IIRC.
Nikoli
Yes, but the system is automated.
We're talking about a police department that has abandoned any neighborhood under a certain rating to the gangs that prowl at night. that doesn't strike me as a police force interested in air traffic violations
Nikoli
Oh, and for the record I don't deny the cool factor of jetpacks. they are extremely cool, in the right settings.
Edward
The biggest problem with a personal rocket pack (or vectored thrust aircraft with adequate load and a harness attached) is that ultimately the engines will have to fire forwards (the direction the pilot is facing) at witch point you have a nasty case of flash burn.

As to the cover drone I was toying with something similar, I was going to use a low slung flat industrial single pallet mover as a basis adding 2 mechanical arms and a heavily armoured panel that can swing down.

Its uses would include portable cover, retrieval of injured teem members, fire support (it can pick up a weapon in its mechanical arm) and acquisition of damaged enemy assets (drones, razers, anything that can be cut up and sold for nuyen).

Edward
Nikoli
Also, they have personal flight, at a reasonable level. the Powered glider in R3 is very cool, useful for runs and dones't lend itself to the flashy stupidity I see coming out of a jet pack.
nezumi
Mechanically, I have no problem with it.

As for the game world, I don't think it's a good idea. Flying has always been a dream of men. This is a distopia. You will only have dreams that are approved by the corporation. Flying is not approved. You will not fly. Anyone caught flying during work hours will be dealt with by the appropriate authorities. Flying is against the charter of your Homeowner's Association. You may not fly until you have completed the form 800-26 in triplicate and submitted it to your supervisor, to the department of mythical vehicles, and kept one on record.

No flying. Flying gives hope. Hope is bad.
Nikoli
And suddenly we flash to the Shawshank Redemption...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Nikoli)
And I love the mobile drone-shield. Hell, you should have the player for the rigger write that up, I could see lone-star using it or any tactical team, and submit it for SR4.
And all you need is the cyber remote deck, not the VCR, as you aren't planning on rigging, as far as I know. shoot, you could probably get the armor up higher with some tweaking, and add storage for clips, etc.

I know I could have… but the thing was already a mobile half-fortress (I also put a video screen on the back displaying what's on the front, and a small hole with a covering that's a pintle mount straight through. Probably some sort of modifiers for it, but essentially it allows firing from 100% forward cover) capable of bouncing essentially any non-AV, non-sniper small arms fire, so I stopped at five.

But yeah, a part of the reason I made it was because it does make sense as riot-control gear for the truly ugly riots, or perhaps for some tactical teams. The fact that we could make extensive use of it on the next run was just an added bonus grinbig.gif

~J
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Kyuhan)
I have no idea, other than "it just seems to make them too mobile" which is the only real answer I could get other than "it just does". My personal guess is that these fellas have no imagination when it comes to setting counter measures so flying just adds another thing for them to fuss over.

Sounds like the lament of DnD veterans. Flying things had a huge and distinct advantage in mobility when resolving DnD combat. In Shadowrun, this is mitigated by the fact that everyone uses firearms, most of which pack enough punch to take down anything but the most armored of flying targets. Flying in Shadowrun is a valid method of transportation, and carries some penalties (like less ability to use cover, singling out as a target, an ideal target for ground-to-air missiles, although in some cases I would give the flyer a "Superior position" situational bonus).
Kagetenshi
Remember: stay near the sun, but don't let your shadow hit your opponent's face.

~J
Kaosaur
Want to tone down flyers a bit?

Add a recoil penalty to firearms when flying.
Nikoli
Could use the same mechanic as side-facing mounted weapons on vehicles, double penalty for uncomped recoil.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Yes, but the system is automated.
We're talking about a police department that has abandoned any neighborhood under a certain rating to the gangs that prowl at night. that doesn't strike me as a police force interested in air traffic violations

Except that LS can't do that. They are under contract to police the areas the city tells them they have to. LS doesn't have free reign to make choices like that. What LS is interested in isn't as relevant as what their contract details. LS is just fulfilling a contract to enforce established laws, nothing more or less.
Nikoli
SR3, pg 314
QUOTE

Late night travelers in the Barrens or on Seattle's major highways are likely to encounter any of the numerous go-gangs that terrorize people passing through the sections of road they claim as their turf.  On occaision, the right sort of bribe can pursuade a gang to leave you alone; if not, then more foreceful means of persuassion or a fast vehicle and good driving skills are necessary to keep out of trouble.


If they can't protect something as vital as the interstates, I doubt they care about some of the seedier parts of the plex.
blinkin
Ok, we have had personal flight in our games for a long time. However, there are some mitigating factors. If you are flying in a metroplex a personal flight license is required. For example if you are not a registered mage with a personal flight licence on file, the corp sec, or police mage may take exception and dispell the illegal spell. Or you might just get a fine.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Nikoli)
SR3, pg 314
QUOTE

Late night travelers in the Barrens or on Seattle's major highways are likely to encounter any of the numerous go-gangs that terrorize people passing through the sections of road they claim as their turf.  On occaision, the right sort of bribe can pursuade a gang to leave you alone; if not, then more foreceful means of persuassion or a fast vehicle and good driving skills are necessary to keep out of trouble.


If they can't protect something as vital as the interstates, I doubt they care about some of the seedier parts of the plex.

Cops can't be everywhere, you can arrest assloads of morons yet there's still crime. Especially when go-gangs view the interstates as territory or turf.
Nikoli
But the "Yer on your own" mentality makes for a more dystopian future
Nikoli
That and I could swear I saw a reference that Gridguide does the actual writing og traffic citations.
Catsnightmare
I've played with characters with levitate spells before. We never really had GM issues with it, (at least not that he ever told us about).
But it wasn't used to play Superman for travel puposes.
Some samples of how it was used in our various games.

-One player had an Owl shaman IIRC who lived in the top two floors of a rundown building in Redmond. Said shaman liked her privacy and the stairs and elevator of the building that led to the top floors had fallen out, thus the only way to reach her was via levitate spell. Worked very good for keeping out anyone she didn't want.

-another char only used it in emergencies (for example to leviate the team to escape out of a high building) or for interrogation, (float your enemies up high into the air and 'drop' them to stop just before hitting the ground) and once or twice in combat (float them up and drop them real, and once fling them up on a rooftop they couldn't get down from for reducing the friends in melee count.)
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Nikoli)
That and I could swear I saw a reference that Gridguide does the actual writing og traffic citations.

Heh. You get beat up to within an inch of your life by go-gangers, who steal pretty much everything you have on your person and your car, along with your hubcaps and tires. Before you fall unconscious, you hear a seductive computerized voice say, "GridGuide has penalized you with a 500 nuyen fee for loitering and slowing down traffic in your area. Have a nice day!"
Shadow
I think it would be the FAA not LS who would take exceptions to people flying around without a flight plan. Then if a unidentified bogie showed up on the radar they could just mobilize the Air National guard.
Fortune
Is a lone person big enough to show up on radar?
Magus
HEH! Boba Fett anyone? jetpack with an AV missle attached
Shadow
QUOTE (Fortune)
Is a lone person big enough to show up on radar?

Yep. Especially if Radar continues to be refined.
Fortune
If that's the case, wouldn't any radar be saturated almost to the point of uselessness with the sheer number of drones in the air in any sprawl?
Nikoli
FAA was a department under the US, not necessarily existing in CAS or UCAS.
mmu1
QUOTE (Fortune)
If that's the case, wouldn't any radar be saturated almost to the point of uselessness with the sheer number of drones in the air in any sprawl?

I could be wrong here, but I think real-world civilian air control basically relies on the fact that all aircraft carry active transponders to keep track of the skies, rather than on actively sweeping the sky with radar.

They probably still use the latter to keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary, but that's not much use in a dense urban setting if the flyer don't go above rooftop height, and even then, there's so much stuff in the sky...
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