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Swing Kid
One of the guys on our team took a bullet in the thigh in the middle of a Rake run (yeah, that's right Huang); got blood all over the place. He was OK, but we all broke out into a panic and began throwing ammonia all over the place trying to cover our tracks. I'm niether a medic nor a Lonestar Dik, so I am not sure if we need to go back in and cover our tracks better. We usually don't drop alot of plasma on our runs, so it got me concerned. How do you guys (and chica's) handle blood (DNA Trace Elements, etc), when you take a hit?
Chibu
Well, my one character did use a mop. Or rather had a bound Earth elemental use a physical service to clean it up. also, Amonia is pretty good at destroying a blood sample.
Swing Kid
Oooo!
Anybody know a shaman that can conjure Ammonia Spirits?
BishopMcQ
Fire Elementals probably burn hot enough to break down the protein strands as well. Plasma, and blood in general, shouldn't have the resiliency that bone and harder tissue does to maintain cohesion under extreme temperature.
Swing Kid
I really don't want to burn down the place.

Not after the incident
Mortax
QUOTE (Swing Kid)
Oooo!
Anybody know a shaman that can conjure Ammonia Spirits?

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif
LMAO!!!

Ammonia, bleach, 12 molar HCL, those are all good. Also there is a sterilize spell that would help.
SpasticTeapot
Another solution is to douse the floor with a mixture of ammonia and rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol. Ignite. The resulting flame won't ignite anything (even paper), but it will release a vast cloud of ammonia and heat the blood to slightly over the boiling point, pretty much destroying any DNA.
Swing Kid
Wow

Need a team?
Maybe just a Decker then?
Edward
I keep a sterilise spell (and cast it low force every time I spend more than a few min in a room). Ammonia or any other chemical that will act as a sterilising agent works good to, for speed you may wish to consider splash grenades filled with something of that type.

Edward
Smiley
I like that splash grenade idea.
Edward
To be honest I know a cheaper way to do it but you need a nice GM.

Go to a hardware store and ask them to fill some paint cans with ammonia (or other high powered sterilising agent). Replace the plastic caps with the ones from cockroach bombs (may need careful selection of brand for paint tin and cockroach bomb, cheep is more likely to be compatible) should be able to make them for under 20 nuyen each.

Edward
ElFenrir
Couldn't you just take a small spray bottle along with some ammonia in it? With anything to wipe it up with. For small amounts of blood anyway. Spray, wipe, move on. smile.gif
mmu1
All this stuff is sort of pointless, short of custom magical spells. Ever watch one of those medical examiner shows on which they describe how people try to cover up crimes but eventually get caught?

I remember seeing a segment on a guy who cleaned up his basement floor and then painted the whole thing to hide his wife's blood, and the forensic team was still able to find it.

You'll never be precise enough with your bottle of ammonia - there'll always be droplets somewhere that you'll miss. If whoever is investigating it is willing to spend enough money on it, they'll probably be able to get your DNA anyway.
Demosthenes
So carry around a wee spray-thingie with loads of different DNA traces (including your own), and spray it everywhere after you've cleaned up with ammonia...
Swing Kid
Brilliant! Using tons of other DNA traces is a spectacular idea. The actual blood itself will still need to be taken care of.

Maybe someone needs to come up with spray bottles of DNA-B-Gone. Otherwise, getting shot on a run could really be career ending if a Corp decided to follow up on who did the crime. Luckily, from most of the Corp Secruity Records I have decked, they are usually not that overly interested in the smoking gun that killed their secruity guards as much as who hired that gun, and where the package went. I still don't like to leave traces.
Nikoli
Actually, we had this stuff we used when I worked at a sex shop. It was an enzyme that broke down animal protein strands, more effective than ammonia, no funms, no damage to fabric.
wagnern
Unless your charictor's DNA is on file somewhere (And I dont think the 6th world is quite that 'Big Brother' ish to have DNA libiries on everyone), or they catch you and use the DNA evidence to link you to the crime it should be no problem. Even if the DNA is on file somewhere, they must find it and compare it. Each comparison would involve taking the sample and using HPLC or Thin layer chromotogerphy to analise it. This is a lot of lot of work by well paid lab techs. Even if the comparison samples have already been analised and the film is on file, a trained analist would have to visualy compare the data.

Even if the DNA is digitised somehow (a serous undertaking) it would take some looking. (I serously dought that they are going to go to every street doc and dock wagon in the city and systimaticly go through there records. (If they want you THAT bad. . . )

Now as far as Magic goes, would breaking down the sample really stop a mage from using it to get you? Do chemical reactons affect astral signatures?

All in all, I imagine it depends on how the GM wishes to play the game. If he wants to have your holding up of a Stuffer Shack warrent the use of dragnets, cameras on every sighnpost, spy satilights, Mages, Awakend rats in the sewers who have your picture, the Mounties. . . ;then well he is going to get you and you are basickly screwed.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Actually, we had this stuff we used when I worked at a sex shop. It was an enzyme that broke down animal protein strands, more effective than ammonia, no funms, no damage to fabric.

For some strange reason I am more disturbed by the fact that a product like this exists in real life than I am about murderous troll ghouls eating my character's brain.

Does that make me a bad man?


I like the random DNA spritz method myself.
mmu1
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Apr 28 2005, 06:38 AM)
Actually, we had this stuff we used when I worked at a sex shop.  It was an enzyme that broke down animal protein strands, more effective than ammonia, no funms, no damage to fabric.

For some strange reason I am more disturbed by the fact that a product like this exists in real life than I am about murderous troll ghouls eating my character's brain.

Does that make me a bad man?


I like the random DNA spritz method myself.

I'm sure it was developed for cleaning up the scenes of accidents, crimes, dealing with spilled biohazard waste, etc., rather than being created for that particular industry. wink.gif
nezumi
Wagnern is right, your best defense is the political tangle that is megacorporate reality. If you broke into a Mitsuhama facility and Ares had you on file, it just means your DNA is on file with Mitsuhama, and most subsidiaries of Mitsuhama, unless they're blatantly so (which seems to so rarely be the case) won't bother sending it up the ladder to get checked. So unless you're a regular visitor or it's a major heist, it's cheaper to chalk it up to the cost of doing business. After all, Mitsuhama really isn't in the law enforcement field. Unless the profit outweighs the cost, it's simply not good business.

That said, I suspect that having astral vision may just give you a slight benefit in spotting blood you'd otherwise miss. So elementals or watchers could go a long way. That, or replace all your blood with ammonia. You'll no longer be worrying about DNA evidence at all!
Demosthenes
QUOTE (nezumi)
That, or replace all your blood with ammonia. You'll no longer be worrying about DNA evidence at all!

Nope. You'd be dead. biggrin.gif
the_dunner
QUOTE (wagnern)
Even if the DNA is on file somewhere, they must find it and compare it. Each comparison would involve taking the sample and using HPLC or Thin layer chromotogerphy to analise it. This is a lot of lot of work by well paid lab techs. Even if the comparison samples have already been analised and the film is on file, a trained analist would have to visualy compare the data.

Even if the DNA is digitised somehow (a serous undertaking) it would take some looking.

For the record -- this bit of data is very out of date, even by modern standards of DNA analysis. DNA genotyping in the modern age (2005) is done digitally. Genotypes on up to 500000 discrete sequences can be identified on a person in less than a day, and stored digitally for an indefinite period of time. Doing a database search to identify a given pattern of genotypes is not an extraordinarily difficult feat now. It should be a trivial task by 2070.

In a cyberpunk setting where there are very few laws to protect citizens from corporations, it would only make sense for DocWagon et al to have public records access to DNA genotypes for all of their patients.
Nikoli
makes sense, DocWagon has to match you to organs at times and the same sorts of markers to match those could conceivably match a person from DNA evidence.

Now, another thing to keep in mind, Corp's need runners. Pull a run profesisonally, no unnecessary collateral damage, just the target, they might be interested in finding you, for a job not necessarily for retribution (though the two aren't mutually exclusive).
Edward
I believed your DNA was recorded with your SIN, of cause this s not a problem if you donít have a SIN.

After a blood spatter has been sprayed with ammonia it can still be detected as blood but not from who (the DNA has been destroyed but several proteins that are common to everybodyís blood remain). This is also the other advantage of the blood bomb (modified cockroach bomb) it is a pervasive effect that will reach every spot and every crack. As a bonus it will detour pursuit

Also the medical examiner shows are highly inaccurate, aside form eth fact that forensic examiners donít get to talk to suspects the amount of effort expended is only as shown for the most high profile cases, there are far to many crimes committed to put that kind of manpower on most of them, this will be more so in the 6th world.

Edward
mmu1
QUOTE (Edward)
I believed your DNA was recorded with your SIN, of cause this s not a problem if you donít have a SIN.

After a blood spatter has been sprayed with ammonia it can still be detected as blood but not from who (the DNA has been destroyed but several proteins that are common to everybodyís blood remain). This is also the other advantage of the blood bomb (modified cockroach bomb) it is a pervasive effect that will reach every spot and every crack. As a bonus it will detour pursuit

Also the medical examiner shows are highly inaccurate, aside form eth fact that forensic examiners donít get to talk to suspects the amount of effort expended is only as shown for the most high profile cases, there are far to many crimes committed to put that kind of manpower on most of them, this will be more so in the 6th world.

Edward

I'm not talking about CSI, I'm talking about documentaries...

The point I'm making is that you might have enough time to wipe the blood, clean the area with household cleaners and bleach, then paint the whole thing, and luminol will still show the presence of blood in the area.

That means that there's no way any idea involving spray bottles, splash grenades, or bug bombs is going to get it all, and you only need a very small amount of untainted blood to analyze.

The best you can hope for with any DNA-destroying procedure done during a run is to improve your chances a bit.

nezumi
Of course, don't forget that most of us are 'secretors'. We leave DNA evidence behind in our sweat, tears and saliva, which means you don't need to be bleeding to leave evidence behind. And all those advantages you have in finding that blood of yours to spray, they have to find your other fluids.

This is why higher level shadowruns, when the corps are going to want to spend the big $1M nuyen to catch you are a completely different beast from the low level 'break into a warehouse' jobs you generally start off with. If they want to find you, they will.
wagnern
Oh, sorry, I did not know They kept DNA like that (digital that is). But I do stand by my point. How cool is it for your charictors to conduct every run in hasmat sutes and spend as long or longer going through the details of your evidence removal as you did the run? I imagine some people will enjoy the plotting and sceming, but comeon.

Besides, if it is too much trouble and you want to pay atention to as much detail as possable. Just hire a decker to get into there system and change the results of the DNA analisis. Or go into your SIN, dockwagon exc, and change it there.

Besides, if all it took for the corps to find you was some DNA evidence, there would not be any runners. Heck why don't we just have 'Star randomly lock down sections of the city and test the DNA of all the occupants and shoot all who show up on there Noughty list? Because the 6th world may be dark but the corps know that if people have nothing to loose, then, well, can we say French revoulution?. But mostly it is a game, and like tv shows, movies, comics exc, sometimes you have to lighten up and ignore a few minor details. I'd say dump amonia exc. on it for the sake of detail and compleatness, and leave the worry for the Janitor with a mop.
KarmaInferno
Also remember that unless he actively has something that they want, most corps will NOT bother searching for Joe Shadowrunner that left a nice blood pool on their property.

There's no point to it. The person responsible isn't the runner, it's the person who hired the runner. Getting revenge on the runner would be like getting hit with a bat, and attacking the bat instead of the person who swung it.

If you can finish the run alive, most times they won't continue the chase.

Most times.

smile.gif


-karma
Lantzer
And of course the best defense is for the target to not realize there _was_ a run, in the first place...

In general, I've found the best way to avoid the bad effects of CSI-style investigation is to stay SINless. Failing that, a good alibi helps.

One thing to remember about current DNA evidence is: It can't tell an investigator who did it. It can only tell an investigator who did _not_ do it.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Apr 28 2005, 06:38 AM)
Actually, we had this stuff we used when I worked at a sex shop.  It was an enzyme that broke down animal protein strands, more effective than ammonia, no funms, no damage to fabric.

For some strange reason I am more disturbed by the fact that a product like this exists in real life than I am about murderous troll ghouls eating my character's brain.

Does that make me a bad man?


I like the random DNA spritz method myself.

If you worked in a porn shop would you want to be handling VHS tapes with flaky residue on them?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
If you worked in a porn shop would you want to be handling VHS tapes with flaky residue on them?

If anyone needs any help in answering that question, I'd reccomend reading True Porn Clerk Stories. If you don't need any help, I'd still reccomend it, as it's a really fun read.

You don't even have to work a rental place with porn like that woman did. In my years at Blockbuster (who pride themselves on being family-friendly so nothing worse than a Hard-R), I had my own share of sick moments. I'll still never understand what posesses a person to fill a VHS cassette with baby oil before sticking it in the night drop.
Swing Kid
FILE ERASED

<<<<<C// RCV:^filename,"DNA.RECORD.QUERY.qq34A"

FILE RECOVERED

[[[[I appreciate the good information everyone. Being the paranoid Decker, I have trouble with the idea of not worrying about leftover trails, but see the valid point of there being little reason for the corps to go after the runners themselves when it is their hidden employers who are the real targets. Though I won't go overboard with it, I will still employ the best trail-killers that I can to get rid of evidence. I have seen the inside of a few data-stores of even some modest corps and was surprised to see that they keep alot more DNA data than you would expect. Since we never really hear much about it in the sprawl, I can only assume that this one way they use to keep tabs on us...pawns.]]]]


Hey! Who tried to erase my posting???
KarmaInferno
Water balloon, filled with bleach.

Fun and useful!

Plus in a pinch you can lob it at that sec guard's face.

biggrin.gif


-karma
Nikoli
Well, I worked in the Jack-shack portion of the porn shop.
So, no I wasn't cleaning tapes.
And no, I never cleanced the stalls, only swept them out. They couldn't afford to pay me enough to wipe those things down.
Swing Kid
You know, I have learned that many security Guards will drop their weapons if you just identify yourself as a runner. Sure, it looks stupid to those of us in the know, but they all have the romantic vision that we are all a bunch of mega-runners like in the trivids.
I learned it from a sam that I ran with for a while. He said he ran out of ammo on an old Fuchi run and when two secruity guards came at him, he told 'em, "Fella's I am either gonna go through you, or around you, the choice is yours, but either way, I'm taking what I came for and will be sleeping back in the shadows tonight."
He said that not only did they drop their attack, the ended up chatting with him for about twenty minutes about life in the shadows.
Granted, he is dead now, but the point was well made.
Arethusa
CSI type shows, including the "reality" CSI shows, have a tendency to hype up forensic capabilities. The tests they do aren't only expensive and time consuming; they're not as good as those shows would have you believe. That said, if you do get shot, you do have a problem, even if you do manage to splash the area with ammoniaó those tests may not be as perfect as they are on tv, but you just lost your guarantee of a clean run (assuming you'd done everything right up to that point, anyway). At that point, all you can do is take care of what you can and get out. Lay low for a while, talk to some deckers or crooked cops, and if it was a high end run, get friends in high places and prepare for the worst.

But, as Lantzer astutely pointed out, ghosts don't get caught.
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